6v1 Even Fight

[d'Jarvish]

How do I determine how many character points I should build a villain on? I want a single villain to stand her ground alone against a party of five or six 300 point characters. Sorry if this has already been asked. I had no idea what to do the search for.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: 6v1 Even Fight

 

Just build the villain and however many points it took, thats what it took.

[SirViss]

Re: 6v1 Even Fight

 

I am not the most experienced HERO player (and very new GM), but I don't think it's a matter of points. It really a matter of Defensive and Offensive power levels, STUN, CON, REC, and maybe END. Damage Reduction will probably helpful in keeping the Villain on his feet.

 

What Kind of Villain is he supposed to be: Rampaging Hulk, Master Villain?

[JmOz]

Re: 6v1 Even Fight

 

Figure out the following things:

 

How many turns do you want her to stand up for?

 

What is the average damage of the party per turn (3.5 per die) assuming 1/2 there attacks hit

 

Set Defences, REC & Stun accordingly

 

On Offence:

 

HOw badly do you want her to hurt them? What is the average defence..

[Old Man]

Re: 6v1 Even Fight

 

Take a look at how much punishment the 6 characters can dish out. Depending on how long you want the fight to last, guage accordingly.

 

Of course you could just fight it out without a written character sheet. Let the fight last as long as you think it should while taking notes. Afterwards using your notes you can make up a sheet for the next villain.

 

The other thing to consider is how the single villain deals with multiple attackers. The best tactic isn't always a direct confrontation - play your villain intelligently.

[casualplayer]

Re: 6v1 Even Fight

 

Someone might have a hard-and-fast rule but I design from a meta-game standpoint. Your team may cream some of my 1000 point villians without breaking a sweat; some of my 300 point villains might prove unstoppable for your guys.

 

First thing I would suggest is to not worry too much about points. They may work as a good guideline for you to rein it in but the main goal is to present a credible threat.

 

Since you specifically said mono, maniacal, monomaniacal villain we can start from there. Start with sufficient PRE that your players don't kick in the wall, get a 1/2 phase jump while your Evildoer wets himself and then gets annihilated in a hail of attacks before his defenses are up. That is anti-climatic. Defensive PRE will suffice if you don't feel this guy warrants agressive charisma.

 

If you want that Terminator, we-just-can't-stop-him feel crank up the CON. Defenses are nowhere near as important as a good CON for a solo villain. If he gets Stunned, then the aforementioned hail of attacks and a whole lot of design work down the drain. Your players will be dancing on his grave before you can blink.

 

People swear by Damage Reduction for master villains but I find it frustrates players. The more gross damage they do, the more is subtracted to determine the net damage and they can see you doing the math adding insult to lack of injury. Having your 80 STUN punch do 20 net STUN is aggrivating but the villain taking the 80 STUN punch and still being conscious and lucid is scary.

 

KB Resistance is key also. YOu just don't respect someone that you knock into the next timezone and it also makes it impossible to play to the strengths of the battlefield if you keep getting slapped into next week. It's also a nasty surprise for the Move By/Through crowd, who get an obnoxious damage potential for relatively few points spent.

 

I like to play to my player's strengths and weaknesses. Have your mega-baddie able to hit your nimble player on a moderately good roll (9>) but unlikely if that player goes full Dodge, all levels to DCV. They can draw shots that would otherwise cream an easier target on the team. Have your supervillain's harshest attack able to hurt the toughest character, but just enough that the player can grit his teeth past the pain and fire back a tough guy soliloquey (sp?). Leave chinks in the armor for a martial artist to exploit. Have your villain able to withstand any one attack from your group but not the aggregate of a succession of attacks or a creative teamwork play.

 

Without knowing your player lineup I can't really suggest more, other than teleporters laugh at Entangles, fliers laugh at ground-pounders, mentalists laugh at your worst memory then make you relive it.

 

Oh yeah, start with same point base then +~50 points for each player past the first so around 500-550.

[TheEmerged]

Re: 6v1 Even Fight

 

RE: Damage Resistance. I'm one of those people that swear by it Here's a thought -- don't let the players know he has it. Really, they shouldn't see the numbers you're using anyway.

 

RE: Knock Back Resistance. I have to second this one -- and I'll add that you should add the Breakfall skill at 14- or higher if the concept can justify it. Nothing will waste more of your villain's time than constantly having to spend half phases standing up/regaining bearings.

 

RE: Other suggestions.

 

First, don't underestimate the value of some fodder-level henchman. In a recent example from my own campaign I designed some "grabber bots" that basically do nothing but leap at the character and grab them, and "comet-izers" that basically flew around doing move thrus on them. Not true threats but enough to keep them from doing the "everyone gang up on the bad guy" schtick.

 

Second, make sure your boss has at least one other targetting sense (more than 3 targetting senses is overkill, though). Nothing spoils a big fight like a boss that can't see his victims...

 

Third, a hint on how to figure his defenses. One that works for me is to take the maximum, pushed DC's the PC's can dish out; take the number of resulting DC's and multipy by 3.5. So if your PC's can generally dish out 12 DC's (12d6 Energy Blast or 60 STR), they can push to 14 DC's. Multiply 14 by 3.5 and you get 49. Yes, this means they'll have trouble hurting him -- that's the point.

 

Fourth, remember that the best defense is not to get hit. This can be as simple as having a high DEX and/or +DCV levels. This can be as complicated as combinging invisibility, teleportation, and images so the players are wasting phases attacking the wrong places...

 

Fifth, adopt a "crowd control" strategy. Things like AE Flash, AE Entangles, and other things that cost the opposition phases will be more useful to a boss in the long run.

 

Finally, and by far most importantly, remember that this is designed to be a tough fight not an impossible one. Make sure there *is* a way to beat him; especially if you can turn this toward their lesser-used slots.

[Guest Kolava]

Re: 6v1 Even Fight

 

You may want to give him a few special boosting powers, like Aids or Healings or Growth, that he will only reveal if it becomes dramatically apropriate for him to do so. This way, if he is trashing the party, they know their limits. But if things turn against him too early in the battle, he can pull out this secret trump, and suddenly the battle is interesting again (careful not to make this trump extremely overpowerful, unless it is an accessible focus)

[casualplayer]

Re: 6v1 Even Fight

 

RE: Damage Resistance. I'm one of those people that swear by it Here's a thought -- don't let the players know he has it. Really' date=' they shouldn't see the numbers you're using anyway.[/quote']

 

Definitely don't let your players have advanced warning of any capabilities unless they have done the legwork or you are foreshadowing to build an ominous feel. But even the best GM has to hesitate just a little bit to do the calculation for Damage Reduction and it's a dead giveaway.

 

Bias showing, I hate that power. I play HERO because I don't like absolutes and rock-paper-scissors game mechanics. Quartering, halving or multiplying are absolutes and smack of D&D debris. Any power that gets more effective the more powerful that your opponent is does not belong in a point based system.

[Agent X]

Re: 6v1 Even Fight

 

Definitely don't let your players have advanced warning of any capabilities unless they have done the legwork or you are foreshadowing to build an ominous feel. But even the best GM has to hesitate just a little bit to do the calculation for Damage Reduction and it's a dead giveaway.

 

Bias showing, I hate that power. I play HERO because I don't like absolutes and rock-paper-scissors game mechanics. Quartering, halving or multiplying are absolutes and smack of D&D debris. Any power that gets more effective the more powerful that your opponent is does not belong in a point based system.

Why?

[Zeropoint]

Re: 6v1 Even Fight

 

By that logic, DCV is a problem. After all, if Grond misses when he tries to punch you, you've avoided a lot more damage than a punch from a normal would do.

 

Zeropoint

[casualplayer]

Re: 6v1 Even Fight

 

Why?

 

Now that's vague. If you mean "Why not give any hints to villain's capabilities?" then I would have to say people don't respect what they don't earn and players deserve to get a benefit from spending points on stuff like Detective Work, Knowledge Skills and Contacts.

 

If you mean "Why do I hate Damage Reduction?" it's because of the same reason why people justly feel STR should cost 2 for 1. In a point based system a point of anything should advantage you roughly the same as a point spent anywhere else. HERO runs on a nickle scale where 5 pts of blah is as good as 5 pts of blah and 5 pts of defense will protect you from 5 pts of blah. Damage Reduction, and all the stop-sign and magnifying glass powers, break the rules. And if you tack it on a villain you can't argue with any credibility against a player buying it also. Instant arms race. I know that most of these powers, Damage Reduction not included, fill a comic genre need but I don't have to like 'em. Good old PD and ED and CON. And yes, I have been playing HERO since before Damage Reduction in case my crusty gamer attitude was showing.

[Darkness]

Re: 6v1 Even Fight

 

if you tack it on a villain you can't argue with any credibility against a player buying it also.

Why not? It's not hard - just say no. If that's what you want, anyway.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6v1 Even Fight

 

If you mean "Why do I hate Damage Reduction?" it's because of the same reason why people justly feel STR should cost 2 for 1. In a point based system a point of anything should advantage you roughly the same as a point spent anywhere else.

 

True enough. But damage reduction is more useful against big attacks than small attacks, and less useful the more defenses you have to go with it. If I spend 30 points on PD Damage reduction, I could have spent it on +20 resistant PD, or +16 Hardened Resistant PD. If we assume our Master Villain would have had 20 PD otherwise, and chose between +16 or 1/2 Dam Red, the attack needs to do 52 STUN before Damage Reduction is the superior choice. [52 - 20 = 32 x 1/2 = 16; 52 - 20 - 16 = 16] That's about 15 dice for an average roll of 52+.

 

The character with a 10d6 attack would way rather he chose damage reduction [35 - 36 = 0 on average; 35 - 20 = 15 x 1/2 = 7 on average]

 

And if you tack it on a villain you can't argue with any credibility against a player buying it also.

 

Less defenses and damage reduction or more defenses. The player can make the same choice. And I can certainly argue that "When you go up against 5 opponents at a time, you can buy 50% damage reduction too!" without losing any credibility.

 

[And who says they know he has it? My players don't know because I'm fully capable of doing easy math in my head.]

 

Instant arms race.

 

Reduce the game to STR and PD and you still get an arms race. "I took too much damage last fight, so either I need to raise my defenses to compensate against that brutal attack, or buy more DC's to dish it out like he can."

 

Good old PD and ED and CON. And yes' date=' I have been playing HERO since before Damage Reduction in case my crusty gamer attitude was showing.[/quote']

 

Yep, I've played since before then too, and the addition of damage reduction has improved my games, not detracted from it.

[Old Man]

Re: 6v1 Even Fight

 

True enough. But damage reduction is more useful against big attacks than small attacks' date=' and less useful the more defenses you have to go with it. If I spend 30 points on PD Damage reduction, I could have spent it on +20 resistant PD, or +16 Hardened Resistant PD. [/quote']

 

I have to agree there. Characters with Damage Reduction can be nickle and dimed to death, when another character that spent the points on straight defense would take no damage at all.

[Blue]

Re: 6v1 Even Fight

 

Not to drag us too far back onto subject ( ), but I'd like to say that if you ever come up with a way to ensure that a 6 on 1 fight goes evenly each time you run one, let me know how! Heck, just publish a book on it, I'd buy it.

 

I'm always afraid to run a solo villain because of games where it's gone too wildly one way or the other.

 

It's one of the reasons I bought herosphere when it first came out; I thought I could do a little simulation work. Turns out the program never supported most of the effects I needed in order to supply a realistic paper-n-pen simulation. So instead I do them the old fashioned way; With dice and the player supplied copies of their characters.

[TheEmerged]

Re: 6v1 Even Fight

 

RE: Damage Reduction vs Armor point efficiency. But that's the *exact* reason I favor Damage Reduction -- a "big boss" like this is supposed to be nickled-and-dimed to death.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: 6v1 Even Fight

 

Not to drag us too far back onto subject ( ), but I'd like to say that if you ever come up with a way to ensure that a 6 on 1 fight goes evenly each time you run one, let me know how! Heck, just publish a book on it, I'd buy it.

 

I'm always afraid to run a solo villain because of games where it's gone too wildly one way or the other.

 

It's one of the reasons I bought herosphere when it first came out; I thought I could do a little simulation work. Turns out the program never supported most of the effects I needed in order to supply a realistic paper-n-pen simulation. So instead I do them the old fashioned way; With dice and the player supplied copies of their characters.

 

As a longtime eyeballer for character balance, it may be odd for me to mention this; but I've been pretty impressed by the Hero Combat Simulator. It's a sophisticated free program for running even complex combats. You don't get a visual simulation as with Herosphere, but the program does account for almost all the effects and abilities of characters, and attack and damage rolls. It's good for testplaying characters to help check for balance, and if you have a laptop it can simplify tracking combat in-game.

 

The program does have limitations: it still has a few bugs; it's not totally up to date on all the 5E rules; it requires Java and Windows; and it won't yet import Hero Designer character templates. The design team is working on those points, though, and in the meantime what you get is fantastic for the price.

[megaplayboy]

Re: 6v1 Even Fight

 

The alternative to Damage reduction is to give the villain defenses set at about 3.25 times the campaign DCs(25 for an 8d6 level game, 32 for a 10d6 level game, 38 for a 12d6 level game, etc), plus a CON about 10-20 points higher than the team brick's CON, and STUN about 50% above the base figured stat(so if the base STUN is 60, pump it up to 90).

That will give you a long fight where generally the PCs are nickel and diming the MV, and where big attacks can get decent stun through, but where it is impossible to stun the villain without teamwork.

 

Flash defense or enhanced senses, plus the ability to get out of an entangle quickly are must-have traits for solo villains who take on hero teams.

Otherwise they'll fall in a half turn or less, the moment they're immobilized or have their DCv lowered.

[Old Man]

Re: 6v1 Even Fight

 

OOh...Desolid Only vs Entangles....

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6v1 Even Fight

 

Flash defense or enhanced senses' date=' plus the ability to get out of an entangle quickly are must-have traits for solo villains who take on hero teams. Otherwise they'll fall in a half turn or less, the moment they're immobilized or have their DCv lowered.[/quote']

 

The ability to get out of an entangle, or the ability to operate effectively while in an entangle (and thanks for that bonus DEF, by the way). You need a character who relies on his own innate toughness (DEF or Damage Reduction) and not on avoiding hits, to be able to pull this off. Assuming a villain who has this, combined with Indirect or Mental attacks so the entangle doesn't prevent his own attacks, he may just consider the tradeoff between "no movement" and "extra PD/ED" quite worthwhile.

[JmOz]

Re: 6v1 Even Fight

 

Especialy if his defenses are based on a FF with Carry objects, he wraps the FF AROUND the Entangle making himself even tougher...

 

Stupid Entanagle question: The DEf it gives is that like a FW or a FF? in otherwords does stun still get in?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6v1 Even Fight

 

Especialy if his defenses are based on a FF with Carry objects, he wraps the FF AROUND the Entangle making himself even tougher...

 

Stupid Entanagle question: The DEf it gives is that like a FW or a FF? in otherwords does stun still get in?

 

Force field - the STUN can still trickle through.

[Blue]

Re: 6v1 Even Fight

 

Thanks LL. I'll check it out when I get a chance. (Either when I get home or when nobody here is looking!)