What do you call "Four Color"?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

Doc Savage was a source, sure (most notably the 'Fortress of Solitude' ripoff) but I wouldn't say he was the major one. Superman comes from a variety of sources, blended to make what in my view is an original concept.

 

Superman was waay stronger and fleeter than Doc S, and could bounce bullets off his skin.

Superman wore a colourful, tight-fitting costume, Doc S wore relatively normal clothes but had weird skin and eyes.

Superman had a secret ID, derived from Zorro principally.

Superman had a codename, Doc Savage was just a normal name (sorta).

 

So in other words: take Doc Savage, put him in a suit and give him a nom de guere to hide his "real" identity, make him bullet proof and a bit stronger. Ta da: totally not the same!

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

We're _not_ talking about Silver Age comics. We're talking about "four colour" comics, which covers Golden, Silver and at least some Bronze age material.

 

Ill recap for you.

 

I said that a staple of 4-color was cliche'd concepts.

 

You replied that "they werent cliche's the first time"

 

I replied that a lot of the concepts were hold overs from the pulps and Golden Aged comics.

 

Meaning that while at some point some of the ideas may have orginated with a character, the longer comics progressed the less likely a concept was original, and the more likely it was a cliched or hackneyed take on something that had been done before. Thus, by the time of the Silver Age which is the "purest" band of 4-color, lacking many of the pulp hold overs still found in the Golden Age, and the "blood & boobies" post-CCA elements of the "Bronze" and "Iron Age" of comics, most of the character's were not really new or creative -- they were just "new" combinations of basic staple concepts.

 

Your first sentence in your next response is "Silver Age has nothing to do with it". Then you cited two characters, neither of which were original concepts, both of which were Golden Age in origin. So basically, it seemed more like you were trying to prove that cliched concepts were commonly used in 4-color comics.

 

My point was that if you want to prove that "Silver Age has nothing to do with it" in your opinion that cliche's werent a common element, then instead of citing Golden Aged characters it would seem to make more sense to try to prove your point by citing Silver Aged character that were original, thus backing your position that cliche'd concepts were not common and that later material wasnt more prone to it than earlier material.

 

But whatever.

 

 

The point is to capture the 4-color feel, then the more cliched and been-done the concept, the closer it is to the tradition of the genre to keep rehashing things that have come before.

 

You can be of the opinion that NOT EVERYTHING IS A CLICHE in 4-color comics and I wont disagree with you -- sometime a fresh spin or new idea is added to the genre. The two are not mutually exclusive. In fact, one feeds directly to the other, since the idea that is new today might get retreaded tomorrow by some other character, eventually becoming so well-used that it in effect is added to the body of genre appropriate cliches.

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

The Golden Age and the Silver Age have a distinct range to them. Early Golden Age, for example had a very pulpy feel to it. The lines between pulp and superhero were extremely blurred. Late Golden Age had shaken off most of the pulp elements.

 

Early Silver Age has a strong golden age feel, except that thanks to the H-bomb and Sputnik things started to take on a more cosmic level tone. The dominant characters at this time were often boosted versions of Golden Age characters. As people have observed, one of the big differences between Golden Age and Silver Age is that there's a rising amount of soap opera.

 

In the late Silver Age, soap operas and personality flaws were the status quo. And for that matter, the status quo that used to be the mainstay of the Golden Age and early Silver Age is starting to break down here.

 

The early Bronze Age segues in smoothly from the late Silver Age mainly in the covering of taboo subjects from the Silver Age. Drug abuse, racism, and a host of other subjects were finally dealt with. The progress in the Bronze Age is more a progression of what subjects could be dealt with in a superhero comic. By the end of the Bronze Age, there was little that wasn't. The Dark Knight Returns is very late Bronze Age and more or less inspired the Iron Age.

 

This is my opinion. Take it as you will. As to the topic, I consider anything in the Golden Age and Silver Age as four color.

[McCoy]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

Definitely agreed on the PG-13 rating (maybe even just PG). I'm not so sure about the "Every problem can be solved by violence" aspect' date=' though. I think there have been plenty of 4-color stories that required the heroes to find creative, non-violent solutions. For example, Superman's confrontations with Mr. Mxyzptlyk almost never have violent resolutions. Supes must trick Mxyzptlyk in order to defeat him.[/quote']

Yes, but . . .

 

While I admit that 4-color comics had some non-violent stories, what I ment by "Every problem can be solved by violence" is that they did not deal with complex problems with lots of shades of grey and no-win scenarios, such as domestic violence (leave the abusive husband in the home, the wife & children are unhappy; take the abusive husband out of the home, the wife & children are unhappy). This is in many ways the most escapist aspect of the four color comics, that all problems are SOMEONE's fault, and that single person can be stopped (which also applies to the Mr. Mxyzptlyk stories, half the story was Superman figuring out that Mr. Mxyzptlyk was behind whatever was happening). Sorry I didn't explain it better earlier.

[Doug McCrae]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

In the first few years of the Golden Age superheroes were not cliched, they were an original concept. While individual elements may have been done before, to combine those elements was something new. After all, all new ideas are merely never before seen combinations of old ones.

 

These elements had never been combined together in the same package before:

Superhuman powers

Colourful tight-fitting costumes

Codenames (pretty original in-and-of themselves this one)

Secret IDs

Crimefighting

Kid sidekicks (Also stand-alone original I think. Heroes in adventure fiction seem to always have adult sidekicks prior to this)

[Doug McCrae]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

Dark Iron Age stories are actually *more likely* to feature violent solutions than Four-Colour comics. And that violence is much more extreme and graphhic - Punisher, Marshal Law, The Authority, etc.

[Doug McCrae]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

While I admit that 4-color comics had some non-violent stories' date=' what I ment by "Every problem can be solved by violence" is that they did not deal with complex problems with lots of shades of grey and no-win scenarios[/quote']Does any branch of adventure fiction commonly deal with no-win scenarios?

[Doug McCrae]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

So in other words: take Doc Savage' date=' put him in a suit and give him a nom de guere to hide his "real" identity, make him bullet proof and a bit stronger. Ta da: totally not the same![/quote']The Man of Bronze served as inspiration for the Man of Steel but that's not the same as being essentially a ripoff as you said earlier. Superman has many sources:

 

Doc Savage

Zorro - secret ID

Mythological strongmen such as Hercules, Samson and Paul Bunyan

Philip Wylie's Gladiator - man with superstrength in a contemporary setting

John Carter - superstrength with a scientific rather than magical justification

Circus strongman outfits

 

The blend of sources make Superman an original creation, not a ripoff.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

In the first few years of the Golden Age superheroes were not cliched, they were an original concept. While individual elements may have been done before, to combine those elements was something new. After all, all new ideas are merely never before seen combinations of old ones.

 

These elements had never been combined together in the same package before:

Superhuman powers

Colourful tight-fitting costumes

Codenames (pretty original in-and-of themselves this one)

Secret IDs

Crimefighting

Kid sidekicks (Also stand-alone original I think. Heroes in adventure fiction seem to always have adult sidekicks prior to this)

Pulps did all of this, though admitedly the costumes generally werent "tight fighting" or "colorful" they were distinctive. However, some pulp characters had greater than normal abilities, codenames, Secret Ids, and fought crime. Sidekicks werent around directly, but there were sometimes secondary younger characters that idolized and wanted to be like the pulp heroes when they grew up, and its pretty obvious that the sk idea grew out of that.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

The Man of Bronze served as inspiration for the Man of Steel but that's not the same as being essentially a ripoff as you said earlier. Superman has many sources:

 

Doc Savage

Zorro - secret ID

Mythological strongmen such as Hercules, Samson and Paul Bunyan

Philip Wylie's Gladiator - man with superstrength in a contemporary setting

John Carter - superstrength with a scientific rather than magical justification

Circus strongman outfits

 

The blend of sources make Superman an original creation, not a ripoff.

 

No, it makes him derivitive and thus not truly original. Respinning the same old concepts does not originality make.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

Also, keep in mind that Doc Savage didnt grossly predate Superman....he was first published in 1933, the same year that Seigel and Shuster cooked up the "Superman" concept and tried to sell it.

 

Doc Savage was even called a "Superman" as part of the ad copy. "Superman..Doc Savage--man of Master Mind and Body..."

 

Other similarities, Doc Savage was named Clark....and so was Superman.

 

Doc Savage was called "The Man of Bronze!", Superman was called "The Man of Steel!"

 

Doc Savage had a similar sidekick who was his female cousin. Superman eventually got Supergirl.

 

Doc Savage had a Fortress of Solitude in the Artic....Superman eventually got his own Fortress of Solitude, also in the Artic.

 

Doc Savage fought super-villains, so did Superman.

 

Gladiator may have been an influence, and the mythological strong men too, but they just influenced the scope of Superman's strength and toughness. It's just an order of magnitude change. The Basic definitive ideas however borrowed most heavily from Savage and pretending that Superman was "original" because they made him extra-strong and put a tight outfit on him is pretty thin.

 

Just as if you went out and stripped the body paneling off your car and repaneled and repainted it, and put a glass pack on it to make it louder wouldnt make it an all-new all-original car, so to does reskinning a character not make it new and original.

 

Another point, I strongly suspect that one of the main reasons for the tights on Supes was because clothes are much harder to draw than spandex, and Shuster wasn't that good of an artist at the time, all things considered. His early drawings are pretty crude, IMO. The tight suit approach must have been much easier for him to draw than clothing, and likely played a strong role in that aspect of the character's design IMO.

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

Happy Endings This is another four-color attribute. A lot of people measure the end of the Silver Age with the death of Gwen Stacy, and that was a story with a distinctly downbeat ending. In the Bronze Age unhappy endings became a lot more common than in the Silver Age, where it was rare that they happened to anyone but the villain.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

Clear cut morality' date=' little attempt at realism (including power origins and the treatment of science), small scope, highly serial but "bouncy" continuity, generally unsophisticated. Generally hackneyed and cliched concepts.[/quote']

 

As a man who finds most award winning deep and meaningful movies have

"Generally hackneyed and cliched concepts". I'll submit one man's cliche is another man's genre troupe.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

No' date=' it makes him derivitive and thus not truly original. Respinning the same old concepts does not originality make.[/quote']

 

Oh,come on! Under that definition NOTHING is original.

[bubba smith]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

Here are the elements I think are key in defining a world as "4-color"...

• Superhero Trappings: The PCs and their adversaries generally wear outlandish costumes, masks, and so on. The necessity of such things is rarely questioned.
  
• The Good Guys Are Good: Heroes don't "sink to the level" of villains. They don't use their powers to kill or to obtain personal wealth, etc. This doesn't have to mean that they're goody-goodies (Batman is still 4-color under this definition)... it just means that dividing line between heroes and villains is clear (usually very clear).
  
• Expanded Suspension Of Scientific Disbelief: Quasi-scientific babblespeak that sounds cool is much more important than actual plausibility. You say a bolt of lightning struck a shelf full of forensics chemicals, resulting in you being able to run at the speed of light? Sounds good!
  
• Expanded Suspension Of Societal Disbelief: Although some 4-color stories touch on the effects of superhumans on society, they're generally no where near as severe as such effects would be in reality.
  

Plus, of course, the kind of stuff they discuss in the Champions book...

may i have an "AMEN"?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

As a man who finds most award winning deep and meaningful movies have

"Generally hackneyed and cliched concepts". I'll submit one man's cliche is another man's genre troupe.

 

potatoe potatoh. And its TROPE not TROUPE.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

Oh' date='come on! Under that definition NOTHING is original.[/quote']

 

False. Some things are original, but its a very rare occurrence.

 

 

 

Also, on the subject of originality, why are you dredging up 4 year old threads? Nothing new to post?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

may i have an "amen"?

 

amen.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

Also' date=' on the subject of originality, why are you dredging up 4 year old threads? Nothing new to post?[/quote']An Aside in Moderator Voice: There's no rule against reviving old threads. Anyone who thinks they have something to add to an old thread is welcome to do so.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

False. Some things are original, but its a very rare occurrence.

 

 

 

Also, on the subject of originality, why are you dredging up 4 year old threads? Nothing new to post?

 

 

I got to it from what was supposedly a related thread and didn't check the date. Certainly more fruitful than the 6th edition boards.

 

Your definition of originality and mine differ vastly and we'll leave it at that.

[Nagisawa Takumi]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

Also, keep in mind that Doc Savage didnt grossly predate Superman....he was first published in 1933, the same year that Seigel and Shuster cooked up the "Superman" concept and tried to sell it.

 

Doc Savage was even called a "Superman" as part of the ad copy. "Superman..Doc Savage--man of Master Mind and Body..."

 

Other similarities, Doc Savage was named Clark....and so was Superman.

 

Doc Savage was called "The Man of Bronze!", Superman was called "The Man of Steel!"

 

Doc Savage had a similar sidekick who was his female cousin. Superman eventually got Supergirl.

 

Doc Savage had a Fortress of Solitude in the Artic....Superman eventually got his own Fortress of Solitude, also in the Artic.

 

Doc Savage fought super-villains, so did Superman.

 

Gladiator may have been an influence, and the mythological strong men too, but they just influenced the scope of Superman's strength and toughness. It's just an order of magnitude change. The Basic definitive ideas however borrowed most heavily from Savage and pretending that Superman was "original" because they made him extra-strong and put a tight outfit on him is pretty thin.

 

Just as if you went out and stripped the body paneling off your car and repaneled and repainted it, and put a glass pack on it to make it louder wouldnt make it an all-new all-original car, so to does reskinning a character not make it new and original.

 

Another point, I strongly suspect that one of the main reasons for the tights on Supes was because clothes are much harder to draw than spandex, and Shuster wasn't that good of an artist at the time, all things considered. His early drawings are pretty crude, IMO. The tight suit approach must have been much easier for him to draw than clothing, and likely played a strong role in that aspect of the character's design IMO.

 

 

You're forgetting one key point. Although it may not entirely be well known, but Superman was originally designed to be a villain.

 

But then the Joker was supposed to have died after his second appearance, and we all know about that character, ne?

 

What I know of "4-Colour" games:

 

A) Morality is Clear Cut. There are very little shades of grey. Like all faery tales, the villain gets his just deserts in some fashion.

 

No one really dies. The Heroes don't kill, and the Villains usually get thwarted before anything REALLY lethal occurs, if anything. Bank Robberies are more or less the typical crime.

 

C) Most topics are in the PG-13 range, sanitized for your benefit.

 

And finally D) which is a TOTALLY PERSONAL AND SUBJECTIVE OPINION: Utterly, utterly boring to play in.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

No one really dies. The Heroes don't kill' date=' and the Villains usually get thwarted before anything REALLY lethal occurs, if anything. Bank Robberies are more or less the typical crime.[/quote']I don't agree with this one. I would say that almost no one who's significant to the reader really dies. Nearly all "real" deaths are to background people not significant to the reader, and take place off-camera, but they do occur.

 

Also, I wouldn't say that bank robberies are typical. Often, the stakes can be enormously high (see: almost any issue of Silver Age JLA).

[bubba smith]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

 

What I know of "4-Colour" games:

 

A) Morality is Clear Cut. There are very little shades of grey. Like all faery tales, the villain gets his just deserts in some fashion.

 

No one really dies. The Heroes don't kill, and the Villains usually get thwarted before anything REALLY lethal occurs, if anything. Bank Robberies are more or less the typical crime.

 

true

[Korvar]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

And finally D) which is a TOTALLY PERSONAL AND SUBJECTIVE OPINION: Utterly, utterly boring to play in.

 

Which of A-C particularly makes it boring for you? What changes do you need to make before it's fun to play in?

 

(Not getting at you, just curious.)

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: What do you call "Four Color"?

 

B is quite wrong, at least as far as everything revolving around bank robberies. I run four color and haven't done a bank robbery as anything more than a diversion in years.