Seduction an Everyman Skill

[Vanguard00]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

I know I shouldn't chime in on this, but I'm gonna.

 

Persuasion, as I've always understood, is the ability to convince someone that your particular point is valid. You're not necessarily persuading them to do something (although that might be a result), but rather you're trying to get them to agree that you're right.

 

Y'all are engaging in Persuasion now, but not one of you could seduce me to do anything, based on what I've seen thus far (well, Kara and Rachel probably could, but I'm a dog that way).

 

Some examples of (very basic) Persuasion:

 

"Of course you should sleep with me. I'm a director. I can make you famous."

"You have to understand that if you don't have rules in the game then people will just find ways to abuse the system."

"We must go to war with Iraq because Saddam supplied aid to terrorists, the Al-Qaida bombed us and they're terrorists, so Iraq is a terrorist state."

 

 

Seduction, on the other hand, is a more nebulous concept. You're appealing to a person's baser instincts, perhaps the baser emotions. It quite often has a sexual connotation, but not necessarily.

 

Some examples of (again, very basic) Seduction:

 

"I haven't seen you in here before. Are you with somebody? No? Me neither. Hey, let me buy you a drink..."

"Come on, man. Just try it. It's not gonna kill you, and everyone's doin' it. You wanna be cool, right?"

"Join me, my son. Together we can depose the Emperor and rule the galaxy as we were meant to."

 

I think there's a valid argument for making Seduction an Everyman skill, actually. It's something I'll be considering for the future.

[Static UK]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

I cannot remember exactly where I read it, but I'm sure it was Steve Long who said it, (this is not a quote) that Seduction was more than just the ability to win over someone sexually, but also the ability to befriend someone. Since then I've found myself giving the skill to more NPC's as previously I had considered it to be solely for sexual porposes. I have written in pencil in my FREd next to Seduction in the Skill Table and its description "Befriend", and have even started writing it like that on character sheets to remind my not to limit the skill.

 

As such I believe the majority of people know how to make friends, and inadvertantly use this 'skill' every time they enter a new social situation. At heart everyone wants to be liked, and are more inclined to try and make a favourable impression, even if in the process they make a complete prat of themselves! So, yes, make seduction an everyman skill, as only the more socially inept people probably can't make friends, and maybe they should have a (Psychological?) Disadvantage to represent this fact!?

 

I also use two other skills not in FREd:

 

Politics: I use this as a skill to argue effectivly. (perhaps better named as Debating?) Persuasion can occasionally be used as a complimentary skill.

 

Diplomacy: I use this skill for being able to difuse situations and try to be able to deal with a situation without making it worse.

 

The only real problem with the HERO skill system is that some skills cover a multitude of sins all under the same name. However the alternative is then to document every skill and every variation of a skill independantly... how big would FREd have been then? Before the 5th edition came out I had begun to break down some of the skills into specialisations costing 2 points instead of 3. I had a really big smile when I realised that that was what was happening in FREd. The Ultimate Skill book sounds like it is going to try and put more depth to ALL the skills, and maybe, just maybe, Steve will add a few new skills? Only Steve knows!

 

With regard to expanding the Everyman list, you are free to tailor it to your own individual campaigns. You don't have to use it 'as is' in FREd. I also took a leaf from GURPS and allowed 6- rolls for those skills that you may have a certain amount of a clue about if the player can give a reasonable explanation as to why his character should be allowed to try.

[arcady]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

In case you missed these definitions' date=' Arcady, that I posted from Dictionary.com. I did not make these up. I am reposting them just for you.[/quote']

Not relevant.

 

Look in your Hero system rulebook.

 

That's where my definitions come from. In fact, I even quoted the text of the Hero rulebook.

 

Seduction is gaining friendship and trust.

 

Persuasion is all the dicscussed forms of manipulation - from getting someone to have sex, to getting them to give you the car keys, to getting them to sell you something, to getting them to open the cage, to etc...

 

Seduction:

"...gain other's trust (and perhaps even friendship) by offering companionship or favors.

A successful Seduction roll usually makes it easier to learn information of gain favors..." (page 48 Hero rulebook)

 

Persuasion:

..."convince, persuade, or influence individuals, or tell lies.

...

a successful Persuasion roll should make a PC much more inclined to believe the speaker or do as he requests." (page 46 Hero rulebook)

 

 

Those are the -only- defintions that matter.

[arcady]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Politics: I use this as a skill to argue effectivly. (perhaps better named as Debating?) Persuasion can occasionally be used as a complimentary skill.

 

Diplomacy: I use this skill for being able to difuse situations and try to be able to deal with a situation without making it worse.

Your Politics and Diplomacy skills can probably be done through situational mixes of Oratory, Bureaucratics, and Persuasion.

[Magmarock]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Those are the -only- defintions that matter.

 

If book rules were the -only- things that mattered, then we wouldn't need this board, or these threads, or these discussions.

 

 

Mags

[KA.]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Not relevant.

 

Look in your Hero system rulebook.

 

That's where my definitions come from. In fact, I even quoted the text of the Hero rulebook.

 

Seduction is gaining friendship and trust.

 

Persuasion is all the dicscussed forms of manipulation - from getting someone to have sex, to getting them to give you the car keys, to getting them to sell you something, to getting them to open the cage, to etc...

 

Seduction:

"...gain other's trust (and perhaps even friendship) by offering companionship or favors.

A successful Seduction roll usually makes it easier to learn information of gain favors..." (page 48 Hero rulebook)

 

Persuasion:

..."convince, persuade, or influence individuals, or tell lies.

...

a successful Persuasion roll should make a PC much more inclined to believe the speaker or do as he requests." (page 46 Hero rulebook)

 

 

Those are the -only- defintions that matter.

 

Okay, based on your quotes, and back to the original question.

I see Persuasion, as defined in the game, as the ability to convince someone of your point, or that something would be the best course of action for them.

I think that everyone does have some degree of this.

I can go to the fish market and have the guy behind the counter convince me that the Tuna would be better than the Salmon for my dinner. It may be that he got a great deal on the Tuna, or he could be telling the truth, but he is swaying me as to a course of action.

The guy at the muffler shop may convince me that I need to replace those exhaust pipes while I'm at it, I will just have trouble later on if I don't.

 

They are persuading me to accept an idea.

 

Unless someone is so socially challenged that they can't have a conversation with someone, they possess at least a small amount of this skill, at least in their own personal area of expertise.

 

Seduction is an attempt to get someone to accept you.

Even in a non-sexual context, it is based, not on reason, but on personal magnetism.

 

The difference.

 

If the guy at the muffler shop says:

"Hey pal, I've seen you in here before!

You know, I am having a really slow week.

It would really help me out with the Manager if you bought a set of exhaust pipes.

How about it, Buddy?"

 

That is Seduction.

 

He is trying to forge a relationship with me, that will cause me to do what he wants, with no appeal to "reason".

 

In my experience, that skill is not as common as the ability to persuade someone based on something other than just personal magnetism.

 

It is something that Spies, Con Men, and Undercover Agents have, but not every member of the general public.

 

It is not that people do not attempt to do this sort of thing in daily life, they are just nearly always unsuccessful at it, because they have no skill at it.

Those who have the Skill, are much more successful.

 

That's just the way I see it, your mileage may vary.

 

KA.

[Magmarock]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

That is very astute, KA. Thank you for making it so simple.

 

 

 

Mags

 

PS: I'd send some Rep your way, but I have to spread it around first.

[KA.]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

That is very astute' date=' KA. Thank you for making it so simple. [/b']

 

Mags

 

PS: I'd send some Rep your way, but I have to spread it around first.

 

It's the thought that counts.

 

Glad you liked the post,

KA.

[Wanderer]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Seduction is an attempt to get someone to accept you.

Even in a non-sexual context, it is based, not on reason, but on personal magnetism.

 

He is trying to forge a relationship with me, that will cause me to do what he wants, with no appeal to "reason".

 

In my experience, that skill is not as common as the ability to persuade someone based on something other than just personal magnetism.

 

It is something that Spies, Con Men, and Undercover Agents have, but not every member of the general public.

 

It is not that people do not attempt to do this sort of thing in daily life, they are just nearly always unsuccessful at it, because they have no skill at it.

Those who have the Skill, are much more successful.

 

KA.

 

Mostly exact, except you have to reword that nearly always to often. People get success in it often enough to score successful dates, have someone listen to a sob story, and have co-workers and acquaintances to lend them a favor just on sympathy's sake. Since most people are able to pull off this now and then, it stands to reason that they are a basic proficiency. We are discussing giving a default free 8-, not a 13-. The kind of emotion appeal you mention is something people actually do all the time, and are successful more often than you imply. They are just much more indirect, with much implying and innuendo, and using them in more favourable circumstances than your example. That is indeed the field of the masters of the Skill, those who have so much honed their personal magnetism, that they can wrap much more direct and momentuous requests in irresistible charm. But Spies and Con Men do not rely on Familiarity: they buy the full Skill.

[arcady]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Think of the two skills not as 'Seduction' and 'Persuasion' but as 'Skill number one' and 'Skill number two'.

 

We know what skill number one does, and we know what skill number two does.

 

I think one of them has a poorly chosen name for what it does...

 

I also think both of them should if not be everyman skills, at least be possible on a 6- or 5- for everyone.

 

The problem is that in Hero, there is no step between 8- and 0-, so we end up bickering over which end of a line the size of Texas everything should fall.

 

That said, nothing in Skill number one allows you to persuade someone. For that you need skill number two.

 

Skill number one only forges relationships - it makes people more disposed to take their own initiative in action towards you.

 

Skill number two lets you suggest a course of action for them to take.

[KA.]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Mostly exact' date=' except you have to reword that nearly always to often. People get success in it often enough to score successful dates, have someone listen to a sob story, and have co-workers and acquaintances to lend them a favor just on sympathy's sake. Since most people are able to pull off this now and then, it stands to reason that they are a basic proficiency. We are discussing giving a default free 8-, not a 13-. The kind of emotion appeal you mention is something people actually do all the time, and are successful more often than you imply. They are just much more indirect, with much implying and innuendo, and using them in more favourable circumstances than your example. That is indeed the field of the masters of the Skill, those who have so much honed their personal magnetism, that they can wrap much more direct and momentuous requests in irresistible charm. But Spies and Con Men do not rely on Familiarity: they buy the full Skill.[/quote']

 

Wanderer,

I don't mean to be argumentative, but I just don't see the level of success you are talking about in the general public. That is why so many people have trouble with things like job interviews. They have no skill at "selling themselves".

If everyone had at least some ability in this area, society would probably run more smoothly in some ways.

 

Many people even seem to have some sort of reverse level of this.

They make perfectly reasonable arguments, intended to persuade, but they themselves are so annoying that it falls on deaf ears.

(I realized while typing the above, that it could be taken as some kind of veiled insult. I am not directing it toward anyone here. I am actually talking about people like smarmy "used-car salesman" types. That are so personally obnoxious that even if they had 20 good reasons for you to buy the car they are selling, you would likely say "No".)

 

One thing that may be at the root of our disagreement is that these are highly complementary skills, and a lot of people have both of them, so they get mixed together.

 

(If you can make a convincing argument, and appeal to people as a "nice person", you are just a few attack ads away from being elected President!)

 

But to succeed on Seduction alone, requires skill that I don't see everyone as having, even at 8 or less.

 

For one thing, most people seem pretty good at resisting Persuasion, at least to some degree, because they have at least some familiarity with how it works. (They can argue their own point.)

 

But most people seem very poor at resisting Seduction, because they don't realize what it going on until it is too late. If everyone had at least some skill in this area, it would be much harder for those that have the full skill to fool their targets.

I have heard of mature business men basically losing their entire fortunes to stippers.

Obviously these men know something about Persuasion, because they make business deals all day long.

But even though they start out with the knowledge that the person they are talking to is a stripper, and that strippers make money by convincing gullible men that they like them, they still get taken.

It seems like if these men had even a basic familiarity with how Seduction worked, they would not fall for this, but they do.

 

Anyway, just my opinion, I may be making too tight of a distinction between the two things.

 

KA.

[arcady]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Actually I think the mistake is that, as I read you, you're still equating the Seduction skill to seduction.

 

Seduction has nothing to do with seduction...

 

It has no connection to sexuality, no connection to conning people, vamping them, or otherwise getting them to do something.

 

At least as it is described in the book, it is in no way about seduction...

 

It's about 'befriending'. Building buddies, building allies.

 

Seduction lets you gain trust. This makes it easier to get information and favors. Which implies it as complimentary to persuasion. It also points out that if you get them as far as friendship they will take their own actions to your benifit. But you've never persuaded them, never seduced them as far as 'vamping' is concerned - you've just put them on your side.

 

The stripper example you give - she's going to get you to like her, but from there most of the work she does is to persuade you to do things for her, with Persuasion.

 

I'm not sure I agree most people are poor at resisting being made to trust or befriend someone. I do think most of us are poor at avoiding being conned. Going to the used car salesman you mentioned - these people are actually masters at getting people to do what they desire. They are masters of persuasion. But they might not ever manage to get you to like them in the process.

[Vorsch]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Says something that the Seduction skill isint the seduction skill.

 

No wonder some people complain about hero. ( gee what does climbing skill do )

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

The name of the skill "Seduction" is very misleading ... so lets get over it. It should have been called "Charm" given the skill description. As for being an Everyman skill, generally the Charm skill is not something people tend to exercise too much.

[KA.]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Actually I think the mistake is that, as I read you, you're still equating the Seduction skill to seduction.

 

Seduction has nothing to do with seduction...

 

It has no connection to sexuality, no connection to conning people, vamping them, or otherwise getting them to do something.

 

At least as it is described in the book, it is in no way about seduction...

 

It's about 'befriending'. Building buddies, building allies.

 

Seduction lets you gain trust. This makes it easier to get information and favors. Which implies it as complimentary to persuasion. It also points out that if you get them as far as friendship they will take their own actions to your benifit. But you've never persuaded them, never seduced them as far as 'vamping' is concerned - you've just put them on your side.

 

The stripper example you give - she's going to get you to like her, but from there most of the work she does is to persuade you to do things for her, with Persuasion.

 

I'm not sure I agree most people are poor at resisting being made to trust or befriend someone. I do think most of us are poor at avoiding being conned. Going to the used car salesman you mentioned - these people are actually masters at getting people to do what they desire. They are masters of persuasion. But they might not ever manage to get you to like them in the process.

 

Sorry for picking an example that appears gray, but let me clarify.

What most strippers do, at least as far as the kind of long term thing I am talking about, has basically nothing to do with sex. A man with money who wants sex can simplify everything by going to a prostitute.

What strippers do, at least the successful ones, is Seduction, the Skill, as defined.

It is not the offering of sexual favors that is so damaging, it is convincing men that they like them, that they are their friend, and that they are in a relationship that doesn't actually exist.

They do a lot of talking about what is bothering the man, problems he has in his daily life, business, etc. and appear sympathetic, eventually convincing the man that they are his true friend. Then they begin to let the man know about their various needs and wants, which the man provides because of their "friendship". It is not really Persuasion, as far as making logical arguments as to why he should buy her things. It is just, "You like me. I like you. I want this. Please buy it for me."

And again, this is with the man starting out with the knowledge that these women aren't his friends, and that if he had no money, they wouldn't even speak to him.

While most people seem to have at least some built in defense against people trying to "talk them into" something, they seem to have no defense against people making friends with them, and then exploiting that friendship.

I am not saying that every attempt at Seduction is successful, even for those with the Skill.

I am saying that people seem much more able to say:

"This guy is trying to talk me into something."

than

"This person is trying to make friends with me under false pretenses."

 

Okay, I think I'm done.

 

Tomato, Tomahto.

 

Your mileage appears to vary.

 

I must say that I have enjoyed this discourse.

Sometimes I don't have a really clear grasp on what I think about something until someone else throws a few rocks at it.

But I think I have a good grasp on this topic for myself.

And, since Hero is made to be modified, you have every right in the world to do it the way you see it.

 

The last thing I would say is, that while I would not make this an Everyman skill, perhaps it is a skill that more characters should have on their sheets. Not everybody, but more than just the James Bond types.

 

KA.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

I don't think Seduction should be an Everyman Skill, and here's why. Using common sense, I think we have to define Seduction as the Skill that allows you to get people to accept you (date you, be your friend, have sex with you, do favors for you, etc.) when they wouldn't have otherwise. That's the key. You don't need Seduction to get a date... you need Seduction to get a date from someone who otherwise wouldn't be inclined to date you. You don't need Seduction to make a friend... you need Seduction to make a friend of someone who otherwise wouldn't be inclined to be friends with you.

 

I realize the description of the Skill does not explictly say this, but I think it's obviously implied. After all, you don't need Persuasion to convince someone of an idea that they already agree with. If someone was going to accept you anyway, you wouldn't need to use Seduction on them.

 

If Seduction was an Everyman skill, it would have an 8- roll. An 8- roll succeeds roughly 25% of the time. So if Seduction was an Everyman skill, everyone would have a 1 in 4 chance of getting any given person to date them, be their friend, do favors for them, and so on... even ones who wouldn't otherwise be inclined to do so. I just don't see that. If your average gamer tried to get four supermodels to go to a party with him, I don't think it's likely that one would agree.

 

Getting people you're compatible with to accept you is one thing. Getting people you're not compatible with to accept you is a whole different ball of wax, and I don't think the average person is successful at that 25% of the time.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Says something that the Seduction skill isint the seduction skill.

No wonder some people complain about hero. ( gee what does climbing skill do )

Seduction is the seduction skill... it just isn't solely the seduction skill.

[arcady]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

If you want someone to have sex with you you have to persuade them. You use Persuasion.

 

If you want them to love you you use Seduction - you befriend them.

 

 

You really need to stop focusing on the name of the skill, and start looking at how they are described in the book.

 

The Seduction skill never covers the act of seducing - unless you believe seducing is making friends.

 

Looking at this definition:

 

seduce

1. To lead away from duty, accepted principles, or proper conduct. See Synonyms at lure.

2. To induce to engage in sex.

3.

a. To entice or beguile into a desired state or position.

b. To win over; attract.

 

 

The skill 'Seduction' only fits for 3-b. The rest are Persuasion.

[KA.]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

I don't think Seduction should be an Everyman Skill' date=' and here's why. Using common sense, I think we have to define Seduction as the Skill that allows you to get people to accept you (date you, be your friend, have sex with you, do favors for you, etc.) [i']when they wouldn't have otherwise[/i]. That's the key. You don't need Seduction to get a date... you need Seduction to get a date from someone who otherwise wouldn't be inclined to date you. You don't need Seduction to make a friend... you need Seduction to make a friend of someone who otherwise wouldn't be inclined to be friends with you.

 

I realize the description of the Skill does not explictly say this, but I think it's obviously implied. After all, you don't need Persuasion to convince someone of an idea that they already agree with. If someone was going to accept you anyway, you wouldn't need to use Seduction on them.

 

If Seduction was an Everyman skill, it would have an 8- roll. An 8- roll succeeds roughly 25% of the time. So if Seduction was an Everyman skill, everyone would have a 1 in 4 chance of getting any given person to date them, be their friend, do favors for them, and so on... even ones who wouldn't otherwise be inclined to do so. I just don't see that. If your average gamer tried to get four supermodels to go to a party with him, I don't think it's likely that one would agree.

 

Getting people you're compatible with to accept you is one thing. Getting people you're not compatible with to accept you is a whole different ball of wax, and I don't think the average person is successful at that 25% of the time.

 

Way to go Derek.

Thanks for making things clear and concise, thus pointing out the long-windedness of my posts.

 

Just kidding. Nice explanation. Positive Rep is coming your way.

 

KA.

 

Whoops! Positive Rep will be coming your way, as soon as I can do so.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

You really need to stop focusing on the name of the skill, and start looking at how they are described in the book.(snip)

The skill 'Seduction' only fits for 3-b. The rest are Persuasion.

I think you're defining Persuasion far too broadly, and not exercising enough common sense about what falls under Persuasion and what falls under Seduction. YMMV.

[arcady]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

I'm only defining Persuasion by what it says on page 46.

 

..."convince, persuade, or influence individuals, or tell lies.

...

a successful Persuasion roll should make a PC much more inclined to believe the speaker or do as he requests." (page 46 Hero rulebook)

 

As well as Seduction by only what it says on page 48:

"...gain other's trust (and perhaps even friendship) by offering companionship or favors.

A successful Seduction roll usually makes it easier to learn information or gain favors..." (page 48 Hero rulebook)

 

 

What I am not doing, is defining them by what they are called and how that is defined outside of Hero - that is in conflict with how they are defined inside of Hero. If you define them by what they are called outside of Hero, they overlap. If you define them by how they are defined within Hero (which is a logically consistant approach), they no longer overlap.

 

If that is so hard to do, simply scratch out the names of the skills in your book, and change them to 'PRE-based skill 1' and 'PRE based skill 2'. With such neutral names you can look at them and see they are both full skills that are mutually exclusive. Don't get hung up on their names, follow their within Hero definitions.

[Vanguard00]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

I like KA's description, and Derek's clarification. They said what I wish I had, and probably better. Positive rep, guys.

 

And I rescind my earlier comment about making Seduction an Everyman skill. Derek's post made perfect sense to me.

[KA.]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

I like KA's description, and Derek's clarification. They said what I wish I had, and probably better. Positive rep, guys.

 

And I rescind my earlier comment about making Seduction an Everyman skill. Derek's post made perfect sense to me.

 

Thanks,

 

KA.

[Talon]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

I had a thought about the whole larger subject of skills that everyone should be able to do:

 

Make it the default that characters get a roll on every Skill. If you are a kind and generous GM, make it 7 + STAT/10, so that most people have 8- or 9- rolls. If you are a mean and nasty GM, make it 6 + STAT/10, or less. This makes more sense to me than the current rule where people simply can't do things that it seems like they could at least attempt (with a low chance of success) in the real world. Oh, and you'd have to come up with a list of skills which must be bought to be attempted (many KS's, Languages, etc.).

[zornwil]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Well, while I thnk KA's post was excellent in defining the difference clearly between Persuasion and Seduction...with all due respect, I do NOT agree with his conclusion (sorry, KA, it's bound to happen sometime ).

 

My perception is that people are about as successful at persuading each other as they are befriending each other - which is to say not very if the other party is resistant. I think NGD political arguments speak pretty well to this. In fact, I kinda feel the opposite - I think people have a better time seducing each other on the whole than persuading. I find people more capable of weedling their way into a relationship - even if (and very often so) briefly - while I find people less capable of convincing others.

 

Still, I think in both cases the odds are kinda low. 8/less with time added just doesn't do it in my book. I'd guess we start with a base Seduction around 6/less but a base Persuasion around 4/less, and we spend time from there.

 

While we can argue endlessly based on the allegory of our lives, let me point out one thing...man is a SOCIAL animal. We require companionship. On the other hand, I think it's a fair observation that we use argument as our method of defining our individualism. It's like how best friends can argue endlessly for decades.

 

So actually, I'm more inclined to accept Seduction as "Everyman" than Persuasion, in HERO terms.

 

Now, I wouldn't have thought of this were it not for this thread - and I almost skipped it! So good diiscussion!