Using 1-second turns instead of SPD chart

[bushido11]

How would you feel about using 1-second turns instead of the traditional SPD charts for combat? You'd have actions that would take no time at all, zero-round actions, full-round actions, and longer-than-a-round actions. SPD itself would probably be abolished, unless you had some power that would let you take twice (or more) full-round actions in a turn (good for simulating REALLY fast speedsters, but would be really expensive). As for holding one's breath, you could either prorate END loss per second, or just simply count END loss per 6 seconds (just like having SPD 2). Also, characters can move up to half their movement per round.

 

Speedsters don't really need SPD to simulate most of their abilities. If they can run fast, just increase their movement speeds. You still have rapid fire for multiple attacks. For performing non-combat tasks really fast, simply add an advantage or an adder that would let you do so, such as +5 per 2x speed of accomplishing one skill.

 

These are just ideas that I'm throwing out here. If anyone else has ideas to contribute or opinions opposing the 1-second turns, please post, as I'd like to know your opinions on this subject.

[McCoy]

Re: Using 1-second turns instead of SPD chart

 

And the post-12 REC goes away?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Using 1-second turns instead of SPD chart

 

I would feel like this is not so much the Hero system any more, as I consider the speed chart integral.

 

To restrict "faster" characters to either move the same actions, or twice the actions, seems unduly limiting to me, as well.

 

McCoy notes a major issue - the PS 12 recovery. Even if you retain this mechanic, how often does it happen? Presently, characters spend END 3 or 4 or 6 or 8 or, at most, 12 times every 12 seconds. Your system will have everyone spend END 12 times every 12 seconds, except those very rare speedsters.

 

The d20 system, of course, allows pretty much everyone actions each "turn" (whatever duration) with zero, half and full turn actions, and even some "more than turn" actions. But it doesn't have an END concept, nor a STUN total, so it avoids the recovery issue. In any case, I don't see a reason to modify Hero to be more like d20 (3rd Ed vastly improved d20 by making it more like Hero).

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Using 1-second turns instead of SPD chart

 

I've been toying with the opposite idea - making turns longer. This would allow more granularity in SPD stats. If you had, say a 24-segment turn, SPD's would range from 1 to 24 and cost only 5 points per. The base value would be 2+(DEX/5). Thus a base character would have a SPD of 4, i.e., 4 actions per 24 seconds - just the same as they do now. A character could have a SPD of 11, meaning 11 actions in a 24-second turn, which is essentially the equivalent of a 5 1/2 SPD in the current system. All the math works out exactly the same, but with finer granularity.

 

The only other modifications needed would be the post-12 Recoveries, and the Time Chart. The first is not a big deal, just allow two automatic recoveries per turn, one after segment 12 and one after segment 24. The time chart could be modified to use the new longer turn, or for a quicker, probably simpler solution, just replace the current "Turn" with "Half Turn" and keep everything else the same.

 

You could go even farther and use a one minute turn. That way, the SPD of a base character would be 10, just like STR, DEX, CON, etc. They would get 10 actions per minute, just like they do now. Allow 5 "auto-recoveries" per turn, keep all the same units on the time chart except replace "Turn" with "12 Segments (12 Seconds)". The base SPD would then be 5+(DEX/2). A 6 SPD would become a 30 SPD, and a 5 would become 25. And there would be room for SPDs of 26, 27, 28, and 29 in between.

 

(3rd Ed vastly improved d20 by making it more like Hero).

And the Unearthed Arcana book allows for changes to make it even more like HERO: Hexes instead of squares, Armor that bounces damage instead of just increasing DCV, more generic customizable "classes" instead of the specific prescribed ones. And IIRC, they even introduced non-lethal hit points somewhat similar to STUN.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Using 1-second turns instead of SPD chart

 

You could go even farther and use a one minute turn. That way' date=' the SPD of a base character would be 10, just like STR, DEX, CON, etc. They would get 10 actions per minute, just like they do now. Allow 5 "auto-recoveries" per turn, keep all the same units on the time chart except replace "Turn" with "12 Segments (12 Seconds)". The base SPD would then be 5+(DEX/2). A 6 SPD would become a 30 SPD, and a 5 would become 25. And there would be room for SPDs of 26, 27, 28, and 29 in between.[/quote']I think this is a really interesting idea, Phil! I like it for a lot of reasons, including the finer granularity, and the placing of SPD on the same 10-base as the Primary Characteristics. In fact, it might be worth taking it even a step further. Remove DEX from it entirely, give it a base value of 10 like the others, and make it a Primary CHA.

[Mike W]

Re: Using 1-second turns instead of SPD chart

 

I dont' like doing away with the speed chart. It helps to balance out characters. The brick that only goes 3 times but hits really hard is balanced by the more average guy who doesn't hit as hard but goes 4 or 5 times. Doing away with the speed chart sounds like a recipe for power gaming. Suddenly, all the players want to hit like the Hulk because they don't have anything to compensate for not doing so.(Sorry, CV's aren't enough for most people).

[Guest Kolava]

Re: Using 1-second turns instead of SPD chart

 

The minute-long turn does seem like a very interesting idea, though it seems strange that many battles would barely last a single turn. Also, it feels like there would be unforseen consequences when it comes to meshing with the rest of the rules (new terminology is needed for the mini-turns)

[philnicau]

Re: Using 1-second turns instead of SPD chart

 

as someone who's been playing champions on and off for over twenty years, i feel the speed figured characteristic and chart are one of the things which i really enjoy about the hero system, it allows a wide range of character options from the slow moving brick right up to the cosmically fast superspeeder, and many things in between.

In my current campaign we have a Brick (Spd 4), a Flying Energy Projector (Spd 5) and a Combat Wombat (Spd 7), in combat it makes it more interesting as each characters acts on their respective phases.

[Maelstrom]

Re: Using 1-second turns instead of SPD chart

 

I've been playing Hero System for a long time. You have no idea the type of enlightenment the speed chart brought to an industry designed around the 6-second turn. I believe this would be a false simplification that would cause you to have to create a host of house rules to work around.

[JMcL63]

Re: Using 1-second turns instead of SPD chart

 

I'm not a fan of the SPD table, although I'll happily admit that it is an integral feature of HERO. It is certainly one of the mechanics that makes HERO combat seriously tactical in a way that I do really like (I'm a wargamer too, and I'm not fond of rpg combat engines that reduce combat to dice-rolling contests). Even so, I don't like the idea of 1 second turns. This is essentially GURPS, isn't it? The problem I have with the pure linear combat time of GURPS is that I don't really believe in it.

 

That is to say: whether in reality, or in the dramatic sources that inspire HERO, combat time moves in cycles, not in pure linear form. Even GURPS tends to recognise this with the rules for recovering from a strike ready to strike again. But I don't like this mechanism. I do prefer a fixed turn that allows for different characters to have different numbers of actions in that turn. This is a better mechanic IMO for representing the wide variations in agility and reflexes that are intrinsic to superhero comics, not to mention all the other action adventure genres, or even, perhaps, reality itself. So I don't think that introducing the GURPS 1-second turn would be an advance for HERO. But if you want to try it, go ahead; it's your game and no-one (except, perhaps, your players) can stop you.

 

And the idea of a 24-segment turn? No way Jose! That sounds like an utter nightmare to me. If it works for you then all the more strength to you. But I wouldn't go near such an option with a ten-foot pole myself.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Using 1-second turns instead of SPD chart

 

Without the SPD chart, you inevitably end up having to make mechanics for having more than one action per turn anyway. Why not use the mechanic that works?

[bushido11]

Re: Using 1-second turns instead of SPD chart

 

Hmm, let's see here.

 

Opinions opposing 1-second turns: check.

 

Ideas contributing to 1-second turns: ... ... ... ...

 

That about sums it up.

 

I see that messing with the SPD chart is blasphemy to many HERO players out there. I can understand why; it IS a pretty neat mechanic that simulates speedsters really well. I had presented the idea of a power for M&M that would allow you to take more half-actions in one round to the M&M boards (to simulate the SPD chart more), and everybody hated it. Kinda like the old saying goes: "to each his own".

[Agent X]

Re: Using 1-second turns instead of SPD chart

 

How about we go to a 32 segment chart and call them impulses? And let's add plotted movement!

 

I could see a simplified speed chart of anywhere between 4 to 6 segments but I'm happy with 12 myself. The biggest loss is its complexity. The biggest gain is the differentiation between characters. Many options have been given to "fix" this. Initiative Rolls based on Dex (slows the game down for greater unpredictability) Speed Rolls using a d12 to see if your speed "activates" that segment (slows the game down for greater unpredictability) and then doing away with segments and having the old-fashioned "everybody gets a turn" method (speeds up the game but creates difficulties in character design)

[JMcL63]

Re: Using 1-second turns instead of SPD chart

 

Hmm, let's see here.

 

Opinions opposing 1-second turns: check.

 

Ideas contributing to 1-second turns: ... ... ... ...

 

That about sums it up.

 

I see that messing with the SPD chart is blasphemy to many HERO players out there. I can understand why; it IS a pretty neat mechanic that simulates speedsters really well. I had presented the idea of a power for M&M that would allow you to take more half-actions in one round to the M&M boards (to simulate the SPD chart more), and everybody hated it. Kinda like the old saying goes: "to each his own".

Blasphemy to some bushido11, but not to me. I'm sorry I can't offer any positive contributions to your idea, but there you go. The thing is, with a turn longer than 1 second, you end up adding extra actions (of whatever kind) within the turn structure to differentiate different agility/reflex levels, and actions lasting longer than a turn become the exception rather than the rule (and I do think that the Time table in HERO does this quite well). By contrast, with a 1 second turn, actions lasting longer than a turn become the rule, rather than the exception, because most actions that most people could do take more than 1 second. Even a simple strike in combat has to become a 'multiple' action (ie. strike and recover) by and large. In other words: a 1 second turn just strikes me as being too short. Granted, you might be trying to get away from the SPD table (and why not?). It's just that I don't think that this can be done very neatly by stripping out the turn structure to leave the naked segments, because I do believe that it is easier to handle the necessary distinctions within the framework of a turn rather than across several 'microturns'. In the end, it seems to me that what I imagine you to be after would require a brand new turn structure, which would essentially require a radical redesign of the entire system (since the SPD table is intergral to power design as well as the combat engine). This is a perfectly reasonable idea, but it wouldn't be HERO in the end, would it?

[bushido11]

Re: Using 1-second turns instead of SPD chart

 

Yeah, 1-second turns seem to be too nit-picky. It seems that taking away the piece called the SPD chart would make the Jenga tower called the HERO system fall apart, at least when you micro-manage it in 1-second turns. I wonder how GURPS players deal with 1-second turns?

[JMcL63]

Re: Using 1-second turns instead of SPD chart

 

I'm gratified bushido11 that you took my remarks in the spirit that they were intended. I don't know how GURPS players handle the 1-second turns because I've only played the game a couple of times myself. I'm sure there are some members of these here boards with more experience of GURPS who might be able to offer their thoughts.

 

On your basic subject, another approach you could take is based on the power level of the game you are playing. If you are playing heroic games, with normal humans, then you could try stripping the SPD table down to 4 segments instead of 12, something I have seen GM's do in the past, because most characters at this level have SPD 3. This might require some house rules to fix things like holding actions and so on, but it is certainly workable.

 

If you are playing superhero games I guess a 6-segment SPD table might just work although this is not something I have either seen or given any serious thought to. Another alternative could be to simply ditch the SPD table altogether, and to have all the characters play out their actions segment by segment without any gaps between each character's phases. Again, I have no experience of this, so cannot therefore comment on its practicality. Beyond that, at this power level, the only answer I can suggest is to be a well-organised GM. Hope this helps.

[Turin]

Re: Using 1-second turns instead of SPD chart

 

Yeah' date=' 1-second turns seem to be too nit-picky. It seems that taking away the piece called the SPD chart would make the Jenga tower called the HERO system fall apart, at least when you micro-manage it in 1-second turns. I wonder how GURPS players deal with 1-second turns?[/quote']

 

Maybe I a missing something but it seems that most of the actions that take place are limited to 1 second anyways. Most everything is full or half phase and a phase is just a segment that a character can act in and are 1 second in length. So most everyone has to perform their actions within 1 second time frames anyways.

 

Personally I don't like the speed chart, but then again I only play FH. We use 4 phased 10 second turns that work great for us. Each phase is between 2 and 3 seconds and are purposely left open in exact time. I don't feel that speed chart models real life very well at all. It has been years since I have used it and that was in Champions. I guess it might be different for Superhero style, but it doesn't fit for my heroic games.

 

So in short I don't think your idea is bad, but maybe change the term to phase and have them wraped in some sort of "turn" for recovery purposes.

[JMcL63]

Re: Using 1-second turns instead of SPD chart

 

Maybe I a missing something but it seems that most of the actions that take place are limited to 1 second anyways. Most everything is full or half phase and a phase is just a segment that a character can act in and are 1 second in length. So most everyone has to perform their actions within 1 second time frames anyways.

Yes, you are indeed missing something Turin. The idea of the SPD table is that the segment in which you execute your action (your phase) is a convenient way of representing the fact that slower people take longer to do things. The action(s) are assumed to be spread out throughout all the segments until your next due phase, but they are executed when the phase comes up for the sake of convenience. Thus a SPD 3 character taking their first action on segment 4 is actually carrying out their action in segments 4,5,6 and 7. This is reflected in the way that OCV/DCV remain set until your next phase.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Using 1-second turns instead of SPD chart

 

Remove the SPD Chart and it all tumbles in? Hardly. What you get is a simplified system, where everyone gets an action each "round". Define just how many "rounds" are in a turn, and you get the number of actions before the Post-12 Recovery. It's even suggested on p. 232 of 5E.

 

Now, for those folks who want to know how GURPS does it in a second, it really limits your options down to some basic actions. Are you sitting down? It'll take a second to get up. Would you like to move? That will take a second. Would you like to attack? That will take a second. Did you need to ready your weapon? Guess how long? Yup, a second. Now, complex moves will actually span more than one combat round. So, if you wanted to activate a protective spell, run into the fray, draw your sword, and swing at a target, you are looking at a minimum of 4 combat rounds.

 

So, a Hero Phase is akin to a couple of combat rounds in GURPS.

 

JoeG

[Turin]

Re: Using 1-second turns instead of SPD chart

 

Yes' date=' you are indeed missing something Turin. The idea of the SPD table is that the segment in which you execute your action (your phase) is a convenient way of representing the fact that slower people take longer to do things. The action(s) are assumed to be spread out throughout all the segments until your next due phase, but they are executed when the phase comes up for the sake of convenience. Thus a SPD 3 character taking their first action on segment 4 is actually carrying out their action in segments 4,5,6 and 7. This is reflected in the way that OCV/DCV remain set until your next phase. [/quote']

 

I understand that but for all intents my action happens all in segment 4. If I do a half move and attack it all happens before the speed 6 guy who has a lower Dex performs his actions in that same segment. So although I can't act again till segment 8 anyone that acts after me deals with my full action taking place with in a 1 second or less time frame.

 

Not to mention that I don't like that SPD also makes someone not only able to react faster but perform more actions that are continuous in nature. If two people are charging into battle SPD makes a big difference in how fast they can close.

 

So like I said I don't think it is a bad idea, I just think that it needs to take recovery into account.

[Turin]

Re: Using 1-second turns instead of SPD chart

 

Remove the SPD Chart and it all tumbles in? Hardly. What you get is a simplified system, where everyone gets an action each "round". Define just how many "rounds" are in a turn, and you get the number of actions before the Post-12 Recovery. It's even suggested on p. 232 of 5E.

 

JoeG

 

I am just curious how have people handled the cost of DEX if they don't have SPD. I have just left it at 3 points per since I still feel that DEX is a very powerful attribute with CV and Skills.

[JMcL63]

Re: Using 1-second turns instead of SPD chart

 

I understand that but for all intents my action happens all in segment 4. If I do a half move and attack it all happens before the speed 6 guy who has a lower Dex performs his actions in that same segment. So although I can't act again till segment 8 anyone that acts after me deals with my full action taking place with in a 1 second or less time frame.

Yes, well that's just a consequence of the requirements of convenience in the rules. Strictly speaking, I guess that actions should be resolved at the end of the segments they encompass, but that would be too much altogether don't you think? And then again, following up on that notion, you could even start to suggest that some actions would take effect immediately, while others would wait until the end of the phase (ie. some segments later). And so on. Oh, the horror!

 

Not to mention that I don't like that SPD also makes someone not only able to react faster but perform more actions that are continuous in nature. If two people are charging into battle SPD makes a big difference in how fast they can close.

Actually I tend to agree that the effects on movement rates is one of the most confusing aspects of SPD. That is: translating movement per action into, eg. kph is not intuitive (although it is simple enough arithmetically really) because of SPD. But then, you would have a similar problem with any combat engine that allowed multiple actions per turn. You would either have to rate movement per turn, then divide it for each action; or rate movement per action so that you have more or less the same issue as you get in HERO with SPD. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: if I was to design an rpg, I wouldn't use anything like the SPD table. I'd probably go with a turn length that fits conveniently into a minute (eg. 6 seconds, so that you get 10 turns a minute); a basic number of actions per turn (eg. 2-4); and rules for extra actions based on special abilities. But then, I don't play HERO for the SPD table, I play it for its design flexibility.

 

-EDIT-

200 posts! Whoo-hoo! Look on my works ye mighty and despair!

[Turin]

Re: Using 1-second turns instead of SPD chart

 

Yes' date=' well that's just a consequence of the requirements of convenience in the rules. Strictly speaking, I guess that actions should be resolved at the end of the segments they encompass, but that would be too much altogether don't you think? And then again, following up on that notion, you could even start to suggest that some actions would take effect immediately, while others would wait until the end of the phase (ie. some segments later). And so on. Oh, the horror! [/quote']

 

Yes it would make things overly complex and no I don't think that is the route to take.

 

 

Actually I tend to agree that the effects on movement rates is one of the most confusing aspects of SPD. That is: translating movement per action into, eg. kph is not intuitive (although it is simple enough arithmetically really) because of SPD. But then, you would have a similar problem with any combat engine that allowed multiple actions per turn. You would either have to rate movement per turn, then divide it for each action; or rate movement per action so that you have more or less the same issue as you get in HERO with SPD. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: if I was to design an rpg, I wouldn't use anything like the SPD table. I'd probably go with a turn length that fits conveniently into a minute (eg. 6 seconds, so that you get 10 turns a minute); a basic number of actions per turn (eg. 2-4); and rules for extra actions based on special abilities. But then, I don't play HERO for the SPD table, I play it for its design flexibility.

 

-EDIT-

200 posts! Whoo-hoo! Look on my works ye mighty and despair!

 

Well we really like the flexibility of Hero also. I just got a brand new group to start playing just based on the fact that they could make what ever character they wanted to play. And I also don't play HERO for the SPD table either

 

Almost forgot but I think that HERO's sweep manuver simulates multiple actions per "round" well with out throwing movement out of whack. Once again why I am playing HERO it lets me do most things that I want to do in a RPG.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Using 1-second turns instead of SPD chart

 

How about we go to a 32 segment chart and call them impulses? And let's add plotted movement!

Hey, I like that!

 

And maybe some additional rules; for example, you can't attack on two consecutive turns within eight segm- um, impulses? You know, to prevent the unrealistic tactic of unloading a 'full broadsword' at the end of one turn and then again at the start of the next turn?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Using 1-second turns instead of SPD chart

 

Blasphemy to some bushido11, but not to me. I'm sorry I can't offer any positive contributions to your idea, but there you go.

**********************************************************

In the end, it seems to me that what I imagine you to be after would require a brand new turn structure, which would essentially require a radical redesign of the entire system (since the SPD table is intergral to power design as well as the combat engine). This is a perfectly reasonable idea, but it wouldn't be HERO in the end, would it?

 

I think the above basically sums it up. You're not getting a lot of positive comments because eliminating the Speed chart would basically mean redisigning large portions of the game, because the Speed chart impacts so many facets of the system. And it wouldn't be "HERO as we know it" in the end, anyway.