nexus Posted August 16, 2004 Report Share Posted August 16, 2004 That when someone turns evil in a superhero story they alway seem to get more powerful? Often powerful enough to battle their entire former team on equal footing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John T Posted August 16, 2004 Report Share Posted August 16, 2004 Re: Have you ever noticed? That when someone turns evil in a superhero story they alway seem to get more powerful? Often powerful enough to battle their entire former team on equal footing? One might conclude that, at least in some cases, such a change is accompanied by the realization that the former hero no longer need "hold back" the full extent of their power. John T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust Raven Posted August 16, 2004 Report Share Posted August 16, 2004 Re: Have you ever noticed? One might conclude that, at least in some cases, such a change is accompanied by the realization that the former hero no longer need "hold back" the full extent of their power. John T Precicely what I was thinking, but not always. Sometimes the villain convert has sold his soul (or something like it) or more power. Or the sudden acquisition of new power currupts him. Then of course there's that occasional you think he's been dead this whole time but he's really been nurturing a need for revenge for being abandonded, preparing for the ultimate stike of vengence against his "friends." Then, there's just the possibility he just made his KS: My Dearest Friends roll to get surprise bonuses on all his attacks because he knows all their moves and tactics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John T Posted August 16, 2004 Report Share Posted August 16, 2004 Re: Have you ever noticed? Precicely what I was thinking, but not always. Sometimes the villain convert has sold his soul (or something like it) or more power. Or the sudden acquisition of new power currupts him. Then of course there's that occasional you think he's been dead this whole time but he's really been nurturing a need for revenge for being abandoned, preparing for the ultimate stike of vengence against his "friends." Then, there's just the possibility he just made his KS: My Dearest Friends roll to get surprise bonuses on all his attacks because he knows all their moves and tactics. There's also the effect that rage-induced adrenalin might have on powers. John T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korvar Posted August 16, 2004 Report Share Posted August 16, 2004 Re: Have you ever noticed? I think it's the extra points they get from the new Disad: Lousy Fashion Sense (Common, Strong). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakSpade Posted August 16, 2004 Report Share Posted August 16, 2004 Re: Have you ever noticed? Luke: Is the Dark Side more powerful? Yoda: No! Quicker, more elusive. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted August 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2004 Re: Have you ever noticed? All of these are very good ideas! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted August 16, 2004 Report Share Posted August 16, 2004 Re: Have you ever noticed? The reverse is also true. Most villains who reform end up downpowered somehow. X-villains are particularly bad offenders in this regard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted August 17, 2004 Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 Re: Have you ever noticed? This is, in fact, one of the big ones on the Grand List of Console RPG Cliches ... the fact that, whenever a world-busting villain, capable of taking on your whole party at once, repents and becomes a playable character, he loses all that nifty badassitude that he had. I think it's a combination of the above, myself ... a combination of knowing how your teammates fight and think (and them not knowing how *you* now fight, plus the fact that they hold back because they don't want to cripple you), *and* your own not-holding-back. The 'sell your soul for power' theory could work in certain cases, though I'd probably make it literal ("Hello, I'm Mr. B. L. Zebub, Attorney At Law, representing the firm of Asmodeus, Satan and Mephistopheles, LLC. We have a proposition for you ...") Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted August 17, 2004 Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 Re: Have you ever noticed? I'd put this as one of those things that "Works in comics, but not in RPGs". RPGs force people to ask "Ok... how come?" Where most comic stories are not analyzed at all. In RPGs, there better be a damn good reason Magneto is suddenly a wimp, when he had the world in the palm of his hand, yesterday... but in comics, most don't give it a blink. These are the kind of genre conventions that crumble before the crucilbe of RPGs... and are the kind I like to shatter in my games. In my world, the only Omega Class metahuman left (after Dr. D was killed) is the retired, on-the-side-of-angles-now Randall McFadden. He's able to eat nuclear missles for lunch, but has repented, and worked behind the scenes for years, funding supers, funding metahuman nationalism, etc., through his company Northwestern Shipping & Transport. The dealings with him by the heroes started off very rocky, and became very positive, but recently, as he has been targeted (he's still officially a criminal) by the US Gov't, the heroes had to intercede and work to mediate the issue. He's the only one powerful enough to pull an "Authority" though some PCs are getting there as a team... and it is a great world element to have him around... as a friend and mentor who can say "becareful of the dark path"... as well as someone who could easily go that way again... especially if the heroes agree with him and decide to support him. 1500 pt. nuclear powerhouses are just a load of fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSword Posted August 17, 2004 Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 Re: Have you ever noticed? Luke: Is the Dark Side more powerful? Yoda: No! Quicker, more elusive. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. DarkHelmet: Evil will win, because good is dumb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Seeman Posted August 17, 2004 Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 Re: Have you ever noticed? Power corrupts. So perhaps they become evil because they become more powerful, not the other way around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanderer Posted August 17, 2004 Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 Re: Have you ever noticed? All of the reasons above are good ones, plus another: When a character turns evil, he channels unrestricted all his negative emotions ubrestricted: his inner anger, fear, hate, greed, lust, etc. and they work as an additional source of energy to tap and fuel his powers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedball Posted August 17, 2004 Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 Re: Have you ever noticed? I wonder if there might be a problem with our classification of what constitutes 'evil' behavior and, thus, the effect of this kind of situation on gameplay. I think this is where the Hero system has it all over systems like D&D, with their restrictive notions of 'alignment.' Many of the folks in CKC might be described as 'evil' but I would suggest that there are certain members of the US' current administration who fit the bill more closely that someone from GRAB, for instance. Of course, they--and perhaps a majority of the US, wouldn't go so far as to describe themselves as evil. Like beauty, evil is often in the eye of the beholder. As for the root question, why it is that when characters turn to dark side, they get more powerful? I would second what someone else said: They lose whatever control their Superego had over their Id. They are, consciously or not, unconcerned about he repurcussions of their actions on the rabble that surrounds them. Thus, it isn't that they're really getting more powerful, they have just shed the restrictions our social selves place upon us. I think the greatest example of this that comes to mind is when Hank Pym went nuts and took on the Avengers and if memory serves, he subdued the Vision, Wonderman, Ironman, and a few others. Not bad for a guy who was otherwise something of a second-stringer when it came to flat-out battle. While Pym was going full blast, his team mates were undoubtedly pulling their punches. So, how to explain this in game terms? A new psych lim. Give your good-turned-bad character a 25-point psych lim and boost his/her powers appropriately. I grant you, this only works with characters with internalized powers, but it might work even for someone with powered armor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bblackmoor Posted August 17, 2004 Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 Re: Have you ever noticed? I wonder if there might be a problem with our classification of what constitutes 'evil' behavior and' date=' thus, the effect of this kind of situation on gameplay.[/quote'] In the comics, it's not really hard to spot: The character starts making speeches about how mercy and love are for "the weak". The character starts wearing clothing that resembles a SS dress uniform, BDSM fetish gear, or late 1990's "goth" attire. The character says really hurtful things to people who used to be her friends, just because she knows it will hurt their feelings. The character uses her powers to injure or humiliate random passersby, just to show how evil she is. The character takes on her entire former team, astonishing them with how powerful she really is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopscotch Posted August 17, 2004 Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 Re: Have you ever noticed? We can make up whatever in-story reasons we want, but the real reason that characters get powerful when they go bad is that it make for a better story. The newly bad person HAS to be powerful enough to take on everyone or there will be now challenge in taking them down. Villians in stories need to be more powerful so that we feel a grater sense of triumph when the heroes succeed. For much the same reason, the newly reformed loose power because they now need to be the ones overcoming the odds. Hopscotch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katherine Posted August 17, 2004 Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 Re: Have you ever noticed? In some cases it doesn't seem to be totally "More powerful" but more ruthless instead. They'll fight "dirty" and use blantantly lethal tactics when their former friends are, on a certain level, trying to hold back. Invisible Woman could have always used her forcefeilds to form bubbles around people's heads and suffocate them but she wouldn't. Malice didn't have a problem with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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