Whats your COMELINESS?

[DrSavant]

According to the HERO SYSTEM Comeliness affects skills like Seduction. If 0 or lower it adds to PRESENCE attacks. Of course a 16+ Comeliness gets you dates.

But I wonder if anyone out there has ever wondered what good COMELINESS does for a PC. Most refuse to pay the points for it as it will not help you get out of a death trap etc.

So if at all possible post some suggestions for 'wasting' 1 or 2 points on COMELINESS. Personally I think that COMELINESS is cute [LOL] (BOO bad pun)

[Arthur]

COM should have a large impact on interaction skills. I think they (or at least most of them) possibly should be based on the average of COM and PRE, or a COM roll would be complementary (the second way is better from a purist POV, and the way I would choose).

 

IRL, appearance has a huge impact on your socialization, even though it is !PC to admit to that.

 

I noticed years ago a very intriguing trend: when I introduced new players to HERO, the male players usually went for powerful characters, while female players almost invariably poured points into COM. The women understood instinctively how important that is for success IRL - the game should reflect that. Furthermore, in the Heroic Fiction paradigm that HERO is meant to simulate, appearance is, if anything, even more important.

 

Very interesting topic. I'll be following this one with interest.

[Derek Hiemforth]

I actually think COM shouldn't be a Characteristic. I don't think its effects are granular enough to make it worthwhile differentiating between individual points. I'd make it some kind of Talent or Perk called "Pleasing Appearance" or something.

 

Having said that, I do tend to spend at least a few points on COM, simply because heroic characters are most often supposed to be good-looking, and I like to try to build faithfully to character conception. I have 12 characters who are more-or-less active (meaning, they're in campaigns that haven't officially been shelved). Of those 12 characters, 11 of them have a COM higher than 10.

 

I do still show a gender bias, though, as male characters' COM scores range from 10-18, while female characters' COM scores range from 18-30.

[Mutant for Hire]

The core issue is that HERO has two characteristics, COM and PRE, and has never really thought about how these things fit together and how one affects the other. My opinion, often stated is that either COM should be used more or it should be dropped.

 

A simple house rule is to make PRE a figured characteristic based on EGO and COM:

 

PRE = COM/2 + EGO/2

 

That encoruages players to pump up COM and bring them up to the levels that you tend to see in the comics. It's based on the idea that attractive people tend to stand out more and have a greater presence than average looking people. And people who are stronger willed also tend to have more presence than those who do not.

 

Another idea I came up with was the idea of a Social Interaction Modifier (SIM). The SIM is added to any PRE rolls made by one character against another.

 

A SIM to some extent measures how receptive one character is to another. Total strangers have a SIM of zero. A husband and wife have a very positive SIM towards each other, out of proportion to other factors.

 

COM is used as a 'first impressions' rule and yes, I do take the somewhat cynical view that people have a much better first impression of attractive people than ugly ones. The starting SIM for a first impression is:

 

SIM=(COM-10)/3

 

A SIM can be modified by reputation. The Thing for example, has a negative SIM by default but he is a member of a popular team and so that positive reputation probably eliminates the negative factor of his appearance and gives him a positive SIM to people who know of the Fantastic Four (and like it).

 

And of course SIMs can be modified by history. Even if the Thing is a stranger, if he rescues a child from a burning building, that goes a long way to modifying his SIM with the boy and his relatives.

 

What do people think?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire

What do people think?

I don't care for the idea of making PRE a Figured CHA based on EGO and COM. I think force of personality is a useful thing to measure, and I don't think it really has that much to do with EGO or COM. For just one example that leaps quickly to mind, consider John Belushi. He was hardly a bastion of self-control, so it's hard to claim he had a great EGO, nor was he particularly handsome, so it's hard to claim he had a high COM. But he obviously had a very high PRE. There are lots of examples like this... enough that I think it's clear that EGO and COM don't determine PRE.

 

The SIM is an interesting idea, but seems overly complicated to me. I think the same result can be obtained by the GM just exercising common and dramatic sense.

[Lord Liaden]

MfH, your concept of a SIM is interesting and makes good sense as an attempt to quantify social interaction; but it seems to me that the modifications depending on emotional closeness between individuals would make it hard to keep track of. It would probably work best if you kept it to strictly to interactions with the general public, as a function of the character's reputation. You would need a means of quantifying how certain actions by the character could improve, or tarnish, his reputation over time, thus changing his SIM. Perhaps a method similar to Shelley Mactyre's brownie point system from the PRIMUS sourcebook.

 

For my part, I've long used Comeliness Rolls as Complementary to various Interaction (PRE-based) Skills depending on circumstances. That can provide incentive to pick up a few extra points of COM. Another tack: back when Chris Cloutier wrote his first edition of Golden Age of Champions (in the mid-80's), he suggested that COM scores over 10 could add 1D6 to Presence Attacks for every 10 pts. of COM. That seemed a bit of a stretch to me - it's hard to imagine someone being more intimidating to an opponent because he's handsome. However, when the effects of negative Characteristics first became defined, and it was suggested that negative COM could add 1D6 per -10 COM to PRE attacks based on fear, I thought: why couldn't positive COM add by the same amount to PRE "attacks" not based on fear? By that I mean attempts to attract attention, to please or to persuade.

[Mutant for Hire]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

I don't care for the idea of making PRE a Figured CHA based on EGO and COM. I think force of personality is a useful thing to measure, and I don't think it really has that much to do with EGO or COM. For just one example that leaps quickly to mind, consider John Belushi. He was hardly a bastion of self-control, so it's hard to claim he had a great EGO, nor was he particularly handsome, so it's hard to claim he had a high COM. But he obviously had a very high PRE. There are lots of examples like this... enough that I think it's clear that EGO and COM don't determine PRE.

 

Figured characteristics can be bought up, remember. That's like saying that someone with a low STR can never have a high PD so PD can't be a figured characteristic of STR.

 

The SIM is an interesting idea, but seems overly complicated to me. I think the same result can be obtained by the GM just exercising common and dramatic sense.

 

Perhaps. Even probably. Tracking individual SIMs for every individual is probably too tedious. General rule of thumb modifiers in some table somewhere will handle those cases. A simple table of sympathy/antipathy levels and the modifier it gives.

 

But I like the idea of a default difficulty modifer being given to

 

1. People who meet the character but may not know of their reputation

2. People who know the character by reputation.

 

So Mucous Man may have a -3 modifier to everyone who doesn't know that he is the beloved champion of Slimeville. To the people of Slimeville he has a +1 modifier on his positive PRE rolls with the good citizens because of his positive reputation there. To villains he has a +3 bonus to his rolls (the negative SIM value flipped for a hostile situation). The GM only has to write down two numbers per character. That seems to me to be fairly trackable.

[Vondy]

My wife says I'm nice to look at so I'm going with a 10, which presumes 8 is average.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

I actually think COM shouldn't be a Characteristic. I don't think its effects are granular enough to make it worthwhile differentiating between individual points. I'd make it some kind of Talent or Perk called "Pleasing Appearance" or something.

 

I agree. I think great beaty or ugliness is a Distinctive Feature.

 

With that said: if it does have measurable game effects it might make for a cool Perk!

[austenandrews]

Re: Whats your COMELINESS?

 

Originally posted by DrSavant

But I wonder if anyone out there has ever wondered what good COMELINESS does for a PC. Most refuse to pay the points for it as it will not help you get out of a death trap etc.

 

My experience is the opposite. Seems like most PCs in my games wind up looking gorgeous. It's just so cheap to do!

 

As for game effects, I use it as a subjective factor in NPC reactions. For Seduction and other PRE skills, it's much better than a complementary characteristic roll.

 

-AA

[Trebuchet]

High COM is a standard of comic books. Except for teens such as Kitty Pride, virtually every female in comicdom is drop-dead gorgeous and has breasts that qualify as national monuments. (Even extraterrestrial women in the comics have breasts.) Virtually every male has a washboard stomach and rippling muscles. The superpowered are the beautiful people. In my campaign paranormals are often treated just like Hollywood celebrities, supermodels or star athletes, with SuperPeople© Magazine, papparrazi chasing after them incessantly, and pornographic websites with phony nude pictures of pretty superheroines. (And woe to the Public ID superheroine foolish enough to sunbathe topless somewhere!)

 

Even the male PCs in my campaign all have COM higher than 10. Keeping that in mind, I think it is reasonable to allow minor bonuses to interactions for people with high COM. It's true that attractive people are more aptly listened to or trusted. And in a comic-book universe, pretty much everyone is pretty or handsome. I give most male characters 12 or 14 COM, my females go between 14 - 20. Because she's cute as hell, my current character Zl'f has an 18 COM, which I intend to raise more as she gets older and begins to grow up a bit physically (She ages at 1/4 normal rate).

[Fur Face]

Comliness?

 

Good Morning All,

 

Despite moral objections to the contrary, good looks help make a good first impression. That has been proven time & time again. And since this is an RPG, where you get the chance to be someone else, most of us would probably choose to be better looking. I agree with D-Man, that extreme looks (good or bad) rate a DF.

 

The problem is, as they say, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". If I were to pick some celeberties, such as Julia Roberts or George Clooney, and ask how much comliness do you think they have, I'm sure everyone would have a different response, since "one man's 18 COM is another man's 30 COM".

 

Since beauty is only skin deep, it tends to have less an effect once someone has been around you for awhile. Looks might be an initial attraction, but if you're a jerk, no one who knows about you will want to spend time with you (giving you negative comliness in their eyes).

 

I think its best left to GM interpretation of the situation, otherwise I could spend a few points on COM just to get some major PRE bonuses. I would also limit any bonus to first impressions.

 

Oh, and just to answer my own question: Julia Roberts would be a 28 COM, while George Clooney a 24. My girl characters tend to be near 30, and guys near 25, but that is probably because I'm a guy, so I hardwired that way!

[Arthur]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

High COM is a standard of comic books.

 

Remember Bloom County? When the creator decided to end the strip, he had the characters know the "show" was ending, and they were looking for new jobs. Steve Dallas (the womanizer) wanted to be a comic-book superhero. When asked why, his answer was:

 

"Note, Opus, that ALL these women look like Dolly Parton in zero-g"

[Law Dog]

Re: Comliness?

 

Originally posted by Fur Face

The problem is, as they say, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". Since beauty is only skin deep, it tends to have less an effect once someone has been around you for awhile. Looks might be an initial attraction, but if you're a jerk, no one who knows about you will want to spend time with you (giving you negative comliness in their eyes).

 

 

You hit the fish on the head here, Jim. Strange you should mention Julia Roberts. I find her very attractive, but if you look at each of her facial features individually, it's kind of odd. Using the classic standards of beauty, her mouth is a little wider and nose a little longer than the norm. I've even heard her make this analysis. And, of course, personality has a large component in comliness. About everything I've ever seen her in, she's been playing somebody nice, so immediately she gets pushed up the comliness scale. I'd personally rather date a really, really nice, kind and decent 6 over a bitchy & petty 10 any day.

 

BTW - Stay out of Mesa. We don't want you Chandler people stinking up our fine city and welcome to the board.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Re: Comliness?

 

Originally posted by Law Dog

You hit the fish on the head here, Jim. Strange you should mention Julia Roberts. I find her very attractive, but if you look at each of her facial features individually, it's kind of odd. Using the classic standards of beauty, her mouth is a little wider and nose a little longer than the norm. I've even heard her make this analysis. And, of course, personality has a large component in comliness. About everything I've ever seen her in, she's been playing somebody nice, so immediately she gets pushed up the comliness scale. I'd personally rather date a really, really nice, kind and decent 6 over a bitchy & petty 10 any day.

 

Perhaps that explains why I didn't like Julia Roberts much in "Erin Brockovitch": In it she played a bitchy, foulmouthed, "trailer trash" type of character. Julia Roberts is not classically beautiful, but pretty in a "girl next door" kind of way I personally find more attractive than most supermodels. I like Sandra Bullock for the same reason, although I think she is prettier than Julia Roberts. I'd rate Julia Roberts as a 16 or 18, Sandra Bullock as a 20 COM.

 

I've always assumed personality has at least some impact on COM. Looks can get you by until you open your mouth, but then personality kicks in. My writeup for my superheroine describes her personalty thusly:

 

"Elena is friendly, effervescent, and slightly naïve. She makes friends easily and is quite popular both at work and school; she is one of those people that virtually everyone likes. She has an innocent way about her that most people find very appealing. Elena always has a kind word and a warm smile for everyone."

 

So she's pretty, but nice too.

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: Comliness?

 

Originally posted by Fur Face

The problem is, as they say, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". If I were to pick some celeberties, such as Julia Roberts or George Clooney, and ask how much comliness do you think they have, I'm sure everyone would have a different response, since "one man's 18 COM is another man's 30 COM".

 

Probably a reason for a COM roll then, I suppose. To allow for the individual variation based on personal taste.

[Zaratustra]

The problem with COM is that Hero doesn't have Reaction Rolls like GURPS and others, so COM kind of hangs there on midair. I'd treat COM as Skill Levels on the relevant skills (Seduction, Conversation with the proper sexual preference, etc. 3 points per level?) and simulate really high or really low COM with PRE bonuses and powers like Mind Control.

[Catacomb]

Hey Zara your avatar is one of the scariest things I've ever seen.

[Zaratustra]

I try.

[DynamiteKid]

Personally, I see comeliness as a characteristic that's as valid as any other. Some people get into the number crunching aspects of the game and don't put too much emphasis on the RP side of things. My characters' appearance are just as important as their powers and backgrounds. In the games that I've participated in, COM as well as other characteristics, were more than just a number on my sheet. There was purpose for each characteristic. Why is he or she that strong? Why is her or she that fast? When the character is then set up with values, it's more than "I want 20 STR so that I can do 4 dice of HtH damage by default.". It was more like "I want 20 STR because he trained himself to the limits of human ability."

 

Distinctive feature and reaction rolls were brought up but I think that those aren't needed as the sole tools/triggers for character interaction. For example, Evil Supervillain A(ESA) NPC is easilly swayed by an attractive captive. This is due to his background(Fancies himself a ladies man, has huge ego, and so on). So a PC heroine with 16 - 20 COM(I consider 20 to be max for a non-superhuman) would be able to inspire a reaction with little effort(A bit of decent RP is all that's needed). Now onto Evil Supervillain B(ESB) NPC. He's a powerhungry type that is obssessed with total domination. He has little time for fooling around with anything other than his evil plots and schemes. No time for the ladies. Thus the same attractive heroine PC would have a much more difficult time getting the same reaction from this NPC. Even spectacular RP might not do the trick. This is because we're taking the backgrounds of ESA and ESB into account. It makes sense for one of them to react to the PC heroine as any "hot blooded male" should(ESA). It also makes sense for the other NPC to not react the same way due to his particular background(ESB). This, to me, adds to the RP experience. It's more than following numbers for situations like "What should I do? Wait, let me refer to my sheet. Oh, I have (insert characteristic/skill/power here). Hmm, well let me roll to see if I can make this check.". Sometimes, it's fun to go a bit freestyle and just say "Oh, this situation seems to call for this action(ie. rolling the dice for a check) because that's how my character would respond."

 

Gaming seemed more lively when I was able to see my characters as more than just a collection of numbers. My characters had more depth and I was able to have much more fun at the sessions.

[Trebuchet]

Well said. COM is as useful as you make it.

[Arthur]

To DynamiteKid:

 

Hear, hear! I'm about as much into efficient character design as anyone. There is never a reason to just waste points. HOWEVER - every single efficiently spent point HAS to be in concept when I make a character. I differ with you only in a few details. For instance, if I were to design a character for the absolute real world, I would concur with the limit of 20. However, in heroic fiction, those "highly trained normals" seem to exceed those limits - somewhat. I would allow as high as 25 for that character type, maybe 30. Even in NCM games, 20 is not an absolute limit - it just costs more over that limit.

 

But that does not make a significant change. The point stays the same. There is no doubt, frex, that a very high STR (45+) is extremely effective from a pure point-mongering view. However, I do not design a character with STR over 25 unless the concept calls for clearly superhuman strength.

 

My first thought was that the change in character approach (developed character as opposed to pure number-crunching) was an artifact of an earlier time (I started gaming in 1979). However, I think that is just nostalgia. At any time, some players are going to be pure number crunchers, others are going to be more character-driven, still others are going to be like me: I give equal weight to both aspects. I love the number-crunching aspect of the game, but without a decent character, it's just an exercise in simple arithmetic. It's too easy to be a math game in and of itself.

 

ObOT: I do have a habit of designing characters with low to average COM. However, I'm a fan of actors like Clint Eastwood and Steven Seagal and the WWE's Undertaker. Hardly pretty-boys.

[DynamiteKid]

Great point, Arthur. For heroic campaigns, I can see non-metahumans with above 20 characteristics. Those highly trained normal main characters, such as Batman, seem to have an edge over even the best highly trained NPC normals.

 

I also give significant weight to both the stats and the RP/more abstract aspects of the game. I spoke about RP emphasis in my other post but I also want to add that if I were to have a point in all of this, it would be that all facets should be included in order to best experience the game. It's truly something that's "more than the sum of its parts" when you utilize everything the game has to offer. Each piece has its role in the grand scheme of things.

[Supreme]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

I actually think COM shouldn't be a Characteristic. I don't think its effects are granular enough to make it worthwhile differentiating between individual points. I'd make it some kind of Talent or Perk called "Pleasing Appearance" or something.

 

Having said that, I do tend to spend at least a few points on COM, simply because heroic characters are most often supposed to be good-looking, and I like to try to build faithfully to character conception. I have 12 characters who are more-or-less active (meaning, they're in campaigns that haven't officially been shelved). Of those 12 characters, 11 of them have a COM higher than 10.

 

I do still show a gender bias, though, as male characters' COM scores range from 10-18, while female characters' COM scores range from 18-30.

I quite agree and I'm in favor of eliminating comliness in favor of an appearance talent (like GURPS). Yeah, I usually spend a couple of points on COM, but only enough to make my Characteristics or total cost come out to an even multiple of five. The only exception is when it -somehow- fits the character conception. Honestly, if you are worried about how well your character interacts socially, you should buy skills like High Society, Seduction, Conversation, etc.

[Gary]

I often just pick a picture of a model, actor, or actress from a magazine for my character and just base the character's comeliness score off what I perceive the model to have. Since I almost always use pictures of "babes" or "hunks", I usually spend a few extra points on Comeliness.