The 3 sense groups rule

[bushido11]

Normally, in HERO, powers that are not inherently invisible must be detectable by three sense groups. Sight and Hearing is obvious, but what's the third one...touch (like when you get hit by the power)?

[tesuji]

Re: The 3 sense groups rule

 

Normally' date=' in HERO, powers that are not inherently invisible must be detectable by three sense groups. Sight and Hearing is obvious, but what's the third one...touch (like when you get hit by the power)?[/quote']

 

it varies by power and sfx...

 

radio sense group is easy for tech sfx and energy fields which give off distinctive Em broadcasts.

 

smell is frequently useful for that ozone or smokey smell or even more exotic ones for mystic stuff "that rose petal fragrance again" and is often one of the better ones for lingering clues.

[teh bunneh]

Re: The 3 sense groups rule

 

Normally' date=' in HERO, powers that are not inherently invisible must be detectable by three sense groups. Sight and Hearing is obvious, but what's the third one...touch (like when you get hit by the power)?[/quote']

 

If it's an attack power, that's how I've always played it.

 

Bill.

(Ooh, there's an idea -- an attack that's Invisible to Touch Group...)

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The 3 sense groups rule

 

Another good one is Mental Sense Group for psionic based Powers - not the Mental Power category like Telepathy or Mind Control, but something like an Energy Blast defined as psychokinetic force.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The 3 sense groups rule

 

If it's an attack power, that's how I've always played it.

 

Bill.

(Ooh, there's an idea -- an attack that's Invisible to Touch Group...)

 

Technically there's nothing against this in the rules, and it would be possible to define the SFX of the attack as appropriate to it - for example, a microwave beam which cooks someone from the inside.

 

If your target had, say, Spatial Awareness as part of the Touch Group (feels microchanges in air pressure), Invisibility to Touch would potentially be useful.

[TheEmerged]

Re: The 3 sense groups rule

 

Here's my standard for the 3SR.

 

Sense one should be Mental for mental powers, sight otherwise. Exceptions here require extremely good reasons.

 

Sense two should be Sound, except for a Darn Good Reason. Note this is a weaker standard than the above.

 

Sense Three: when in doubt, it's Mental.

 

Some powers with an "energy" special effect are going to be visible to the Radar group; just about anything else is going to be Olfactory (smelling the sweat of physical labor, the smell of gunpowder, the residual smoke from a fire attack, the ozone from a lightning attack, and so forth).

 

Touch: Touch is in my opinion covered under the Hide Effects of Power advantage, not a "mere" sense group. That is not a canon ruling but has the effect of such when I'm GM.

 

The "Fourth Sense" -- all powers are visible to Detect Active Use of Power, unless a> specifically bought IPE against that sense (targetting, unusual) or b> bought Hide Effects of Power. This is also true of Detect Magic (a 10-pt Detect if ever there was) in a Fantasy setting.

[yamamura]

Re: The 3 sense groups rule

 

Sometimes though as GM I would cut it down from 3 to 2 if making a third one ads either cumbersomeness to the power or silliness. Also Lord Liaden, according to the Myth Busters, Microwaves don't cook from the inside out. They put a chicken in a micromave and cooked it. The outside was done, but the inside was still raw (mmm raw chicken). So they considered the myth busted (sorry not meant to derail or anything).

 

G

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The 3 sense groups rule

 

Sometimes though as GM I would cut it down from 3 to 2 if making a third one ads either cumbersomeness to the power or silliness. Also Lord Liaden, according to the Myth Busters, Microwaves don't cook from the inside out. They put a chicken in a micromave and cooked it. The outside was done, but the inside was still raw (mmm raw chicken). So they considered the myth busted (sorry not meant to derail or anything).

 

G

 

Good to know the reality, yamamura, thanks. But IMO game microwaves can still work that way.

[ghost-angel]

Re: The 3 sense groups rule

 

not to continue a derail .. Microwave Ovens heat food by superheating the particles, if the food is moist it usually has some water in it which heats fastest, boiling it essentially. Which is why when bread is cooked in a Mircowave it's a chunk of rock within ten or so minutes.

 

 

On the not derailed part of the thread..

 

The three sense groups we use are always determined by the SFX. a gun is Sight, Sound and Smell for example.

 

And another note, if bought IPE at the +1 level we usually insists it's invisible to detects as well.

[Zeropoint]

Re: The 3 sense groups rule

 

The US military is developing a microwave "pain beam" which heats the target's skin to uncomfortable temperatures (a bit of an understatement, that) in a second or two, with no lasting damage. This would seem to indicate that "invisible vs. touch" would be inappropriate for microwave attacks.

 

Zeropoint

[yamamura]

Re: The 3 sense groups rule

 

Good to know the reality' date=' yamamura, thanks. But IMO [i']game[/i] microwaves can still work that way.

 

Works for me, just thought to mention it that's all;)

 

G

[Magmarock]

Re: The 3 sense groups rule

 

Sometimes though as GM I would cut it down from 3 to 2 if making a third one ads either cumbersomeness to the power or silliness.

 

We allow this all the time, as long as the Advantage for partially invisible power effects is bought and paid for. If it would be "cumbersome" to list all the power's SFX, then it should be required to by the advantage.

 

Nothing comes for free.

 

 

Mags

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The 3 sense groups rule

 

We allow this all the time' date=' as long as the Advantage for partially invisible power effects is bought and paid for. If it would be "cumbersome" to list all the power's SFX, then it should be [i']required[/i] to by the advantage.

 

Nothing comes for free.

 

 

Mags

 

I find it cumbersome to describe all those advantages my power has - please make it DOuble Armor Piercing, Double Penetrating AVLD Does BOD for free.

 

In other words, I agree - telling one player to pay for invisible effects (even to one sense group) while another gets this bgenefit for free is arbitrary and unfair.

 

If the player doesn't want to define it, let the GM figure out the third sense. Maybe the character doesn't know his EB is detectable on radar.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: The 3 sense groups rule

 

In my games, I modify this rule so that it only applies to Attack Powers (in the book, it only applies to powers that normally cost END). Powers that normally cost END, but don't require an attack roll only need to be visible to one sense group.

 

How many senses do you need to tell you that someone is flying? Or twice as big as he was before? Does Mr. Fantastic make a sound effect when he stretches?

 

The reason for the rule is to allow the source of the attack to be identified/located. It isn't any real advantage at all to have a gun that is only visible to two senses (sight and sound), so I wouldn't force a player to buy IPE just because he can't think of what the third sense would be. Even if common sense doesn't indicate a third (or even a second) sense group, that doesn't mean it's worth an advantage in-game. How many senses is a sonic attack visible to? Realistically, only hearing. Maybe touch if you can feel the vibration. Yet how many characters in the books have a sonic attack, yet don't have IPE?

 

IPE means it's hard to locate the source of the attack. If it's easy to identify the source, you don't need IPE, even if it isn't detectable by three senses.

 

Oh, and I'd count touch as one of the senses only if people other than the target can feel it. The target can always feel it (unless you can hide the effects). Fire, for example, really hurts if it's on you, but people around to can see it, hear it, feel its heat, and even smell it.

 

Also, I don't see how the Radio sense group can detect forms of energy unless they interfere with the radio range. You couldn't detect fire or a laser beam of visible light with radar for instance. Radar is usually used to detect physical objects.

[Vorsch]

Re: The 3 sense groups rule

 

Just choose three detects.

 

Detect tech items thrugh energy signature ( clasic startrek )

 

Detect Mutant power/power, works for all mutants , or where all powers have some sort of special "energy sig"

 

and sight/mental.

 

3sfx is hard to justify for alot of powers, swords, claws, shields, invisibility, drains.

 

Magnetos (film) powers are detected by "mutant power" scanners and magnetic scanners but otherwise invisible. Four colour worlds seem to have 3 sence groups but Ultimate or iron age characters have less. and they dont seem to pay for it.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: The 3 sense groups rule

 

Sight and Sound are the obvious first two. Mental Group powers (telepathy and such) are in their own category.

 

Other powers is an SFX call.

 

Psionic (telekinesis): mental group

Fire/Heat: (touch) heat; you can feel the heat of a fire without seeing or hearing it.

 

EM band energies: radio group

 

Magic based: magic group (yes, there can be more groups)

 

Shape-Shifting: touch

[zornwil]

Re: The 3 sense groups rule

 

I just go by common sense and that there should be some fairly easy non-super way to identify someone doing a power. However, I let mental powers and similar "non-physical" powers get a LOT of slack in terms of being not as easy to detect as I think that just "feels" right.

 

As Phil alludes to, many non-attack powers probably don't deserve/require a 3-sense rule to be balanced.

 

Personally, I don't think the 3S thing needs to be a core rule as such, I think the "fudgier" earlier rules were fine. However, I don't think it's a bad thing at all and it's a useful rules elaboration.