the 5th Edition CU is by far the best

[humantorch101]

Just wanted to say that in my opinion the 5th edition version of the CU by Steve, Darren and Allen is BY FAR better than what went before it.

Much more consistent, both in character write ups and ideas, much better sence of both history and depth. The quality of each book for the cU has been outstanding from CKC to CU to MC to more recently Viper, Until and others.

 

Thinking about it the number one reason for me is that it is being tightly edited and controlled by a handful of people.

 

This is the masterstoke as we all saw what happened in 4th edition. Each new book was written by someone else, some characters were good, many were awful and some were not even written well system wise.

Secondly each new ai=uthor used his own benchmark for stats, power levels etc so we got no consitent standard for characters mechanics wise.

Lastly it felt just an awful hodge podge of ideas with no linking strands running through it and at its worst (European enemies) for example it was truly very bad.

 

Steve & Darren keeping the writing chores mostly to themselves with a couple of excellent exceptions (Allen, Scott, Dean) seems to get rid of all these problems at a stroke.

It also helps much of the history flows from their own copious campaigns over the years.

 

Just wanted to say well done and keep up the good work guys.

The only fly in the ointment for me? Give us more superheroes as well as villains.

I want to know who the CU Spider-man, Batman, Superman and Captain America are. Becuase the people of the CU badly need them lol.

 

Rgds

Torch

[Agent X]

Re: the 5th Edition CU is by far the best

 

I have to disagree. The 4th Edition CU had a stronger comic book feel. The premise for 5th Edition is actually too uniform. Consistency of theme and so on aren't necessarily the hallmark of a comic book universe. Marvel and DC comic universes thrive because they have multiple authors and support immense variety in story-telling.

 

I have to argue with the constraint of trying to place every Hero official genre in the same timeline.

[OddHat]

Re: the 5th Edition CU is by far the best

 

I have mixed feelings about it. I've never GMed in a single RPG universe I didn't re-write to fit my own preferences, so my comments are from a "how easy is this to adapt" POV.

 

On the good side, the quality of writing in the 5th edition books is very high; unlike 4th and earlier, I have yet to buy a 5th Ed book that I disliked based on the writing. CKC was (mostly) good, Viper has gone from being an organization I'd never bother using to an interesting four-color group, Arcane Adversaries ranges from fairly good to great, and the Mystic World presents a comic-book cosmology I'm willing to use with almost no tweaking at all. Improved quality control has been very obvious in character design, power design, and the art as well. Full props to DoJ for all of this.

 

On the downside, this is a world that doesn't really know what it wants to be. Silver, Bronze and Iron Age characters and themes mix togehter in a way that just doesn't work for me in many places. The older universes were like that as well and more-so, but in an odd sort of way having a single unified world makes some of the flaws that much more obvious. Witchcraft is a fun character, a classic Supermage with a Code versus Killing, in a fun goofy world with the very Silver Age GRAB and Foxbat ... and her parents are perverted libertines and (by-implication) serial killers, working for an organization headed by people who are explicitly described as serial-killers and torturers. Yes, of course you can re-write and retcon to get the flavor you want; still, the unified world makes this kind of problem that much more obvious.

 

More and lengthier alternate write-ups of characters and organizations by level of campaign realism would help with this.

[Battlestaff]

Re: the 5th Edition CU is by far the best

 

I have to disagree. The 4th Edition CU had a stronger comic book feel. The premise for 5th Edition is actually too uniform. Consistency of theme and so on aren't necessarily the hallmark of a comic book universe. Marvel and DC comic universes thrive because they have multiple authors and support immense variety in story-telling.

 

I have to argue with the constraint of trying to place every Hero official genre in the same timeline.

I have to agree with this view to a certain extent. While 4th Ed. did start with a basic framework (Champions Universe, etc.), that framework was pretty loose. The individual writers were free to come up with new ideas that the original framers may not have thought of. And this appeared to generally work. I don't recall any product that directly contradicted or invalidated any other product.

 

The only time this loose set up worked was in the creation of published characters. There was wide gulf in quality between one author's characters and another. But this could be fixed by simply tweaking the character.

 

Now, with the universe so organized and set up, I'm afraid that creativity may be a bit stifled. When an author thinks along a specific line of work, they may reject valid and creative ideas because they can't make the idea "fit" into the organized world. While I understand the importance of having a framework, I think that the framework and any guidelines need to be general.

[Theron]

Re: the 5th Edition CU is by far the best

 

I agree that the whole thing feels very inconsistent. I think that's an inevitable consequence of trying to be too many things to too many people. It's a good, solid setting, but it doesn't feel very much like a comic book universe to me.

 

Then again, very few unlicensed supers settings do feel like a comic book universe, IMHO. Green Ronin's "Freedom City" and "Meta-4" being notable exceptions.

 

Before I saddled myself with a very lengthy and ultimately fruitless writing gig, I had proposed a series of DH articles to Dave M. which would take the out of the box CU and propose changes to make it fit narrower comic book genres. I still think it's a groovy idea, but I lack the time to give it the attention it would need (plus, I'm about to kick off a Feng Shui campaign I've promised my group for almost a year).

[TheEmerged]

Re: the 5th Edition CU is by far the best

 

4th Edition was too "busy", for lack of a better term. They were simply trying to cram in too many different ingredients.

 

5th Edition is a little too narrow for me, and in my opinion is lacking some elements that make it the Champions Universe instead of Just Another Comic Book Setting. Neutral Ground and CLOWN are two particular elements that seperate the CU from other settings, and while I understand that they aren't for every campaign world (although I insist CLOWN's PR problem is in how they've been used instead of the group itself) each is quite distinctive.

 

While many aspects of CU5 are quite well thought out -- I'm especially fond of the heavy pulp leavening -- there are others that are almost criminally out of touch. The extremely weak treatment of the Registration Act is the worst case; the thing with the car chips in Millenium City is another.

[humantorch101]

Re: the 5th Edition CU is by far the best

 

I have to disagree. The 4th Edition CU had a stronger comic book feel. The premise for 5th Edition is actually too uniform. Consistency of theme and so on aren't necessarily the hallmark of a comic book universe. Marvel and DC comic universes thrive because they have multiple authors and support immense variety in story-telling.

 

I have to argue with the constraint of trying to place every Hero official genre in the same timeline.

 

Well I would argue Marvel for example was much better and tighter as a universe in the 60/70 under the guidance of a chosen few and not a huge comittee of writers and artists. Lee, Kirby, Thomas, Ditko Buscema etc gav ethe universe we know today its roots and structure.

 

I twould be even better if it were a single vision as that is how all great art is produced not by the many the few.

For another great exmaple of this is Kensen's Freedom City an amazing example of a superhero universe.

 

rgds

Torch

[Sketchpad]

Re: the 5th Edition CU is by far the best

 

Personally, I've never ran any pre-made setting as is. In fact, the superhero campaign that I've been running has been the same that I ran back in the 80s and into the mid-90s ... I've only updated a few things here and there and polished a few characters I still use some 4th ed characters (hell, I still use some 3rd ed ones) and I have some 5th ed ones ... they just don't look the same

As far as a comic book feel, I think GR's M&M stuff is great setting wise ... I really wish they'd make some of that for Hero San Angelo is also a great source ... but I think some of the Hero stuff does have a kinda wonky comic flare. I'd like to see the Champions as the main hero group, with a few others working with them ... about 4-5 hero groups is the norm in a comic book universe, with a few alliances of street heroes thrown in for good measure. I'd love to see a few other cities detailed in the CU, as well as some hero team books (with a mix of villains and equipment). I do love the Viper & UNTIL book ... though I found STAST a bit lacking character wise (sorry Allen L( ). I'd love to see a stronger version of the CU come out ... heck, I'd really like it if Hero had a few super settings (like Freedom City vs. Meta-4), that way they could explore specifics within the genre (like Iron Age vs. Silver).

On the flip side, I love the writing in the current books and would love to see some old favorites updated for the new edition ...

[OddHat]

Re: the 5th Edition CU is by far the best

 

As far as current Super Settings are concerned, I'd say that Aberrant and Godlike are the best I've seen recently (both of them Iron Age), and Wild Talents looks to be shaping up very well. I still prefer to run those settings using Hero.

 

I don't know if really specific setting books would fit into the current design philosophy of the Hero team; more and more detailed suggestions on how to run characters and organizations in different styles would on the other hand fit right in.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: the 5th Edition CU is by far the best

 

I was wondering, how many people incorporate Neutral Ground - in some fashion or another - into what is more or less a 5E game? I always liked the concept, haven't used it in my current campaign (and would have to change some details to use it), but have considered it.

[OddHat]

Re: the 5th Edition CU is by far the best

 

I was wondering' date=' how many people incorporate Neutral Ground - in some fashion or another - into what is more or less a 5E game? I always liked the concept, haven't used it in my current campaign (and would have to change some details to use it), but have considered it.[/quote']

 

I've used the Crystal Palace (Wild Cards game) and Biers (my current campaign) to similar effect. I'm also thinking of adding Clark's Bar. The key to doing it right (imo) is to keep the flavor of the game world in mind. In my campaigns, no Hero is going to sit down and have a friendly beer with a mass murderer; on the other hand, all but the most law abiding would probably be willing to spend the evening drinking with the more light-hearted incarnations of GRAB. Beyond that, the whole "island governed by supers" thing can fit well into most Super worlds.

[Enforcer84]

Re: the 5th Edition CU is by far the best

 

The 4th ed Universe didn't exist until later on. It was barely implied until the actual Champions Universe Book.

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: the 5th Edition CU is by far the best

 

I prefer the old 4th edition universe as well. Even if it had a more cluttered feel at times, with some weird bits too it, that gave it the feel of a real comic book universe to it, along the lines of Marvel and DC.

 

IMO, what they should have done was simply push the 4th edition universe N years into the future. The 4th edition Champions team would be the world's JLA and be removed to NPC characters. A new starting team could be brought in as sample characters.

 

Any characters who Hero Games didn't have the rights for could have been killed off in various superhero battles and some good equivalents could have been replaced. In a few cases for particularly bad character concepts, like in European Enemies, they could have been wiped out as well for the sake of the Universe. And just because certain people don't like CLOWN is no reason to have them tossed out.

 

The other mistake they made was putting as many genres as possible into a single timeline. To my mind this was a rather clunky idea. I would have created two alternate timelines for Earth. One timeline would be the Champions timeline. The other timeline would be a SF timeline where psi powers existed. In modern times it would be a secret agent/conspiracy game where psi powers are rare but existing. The alien races in the superhero game would probably not exist in the SF game (the converse may not be true).

[proditor]

Re: the 5th Edition CU is by far the best

 

While it's not as quirky as 4e, I do like the linear representation of time in the 5e CU. Only one thing still needles me though...Monster island. I have no problems with it in concept, it just seems to be more of an afterthought than what one would expect from an island holding all the great toho monsters.

 

While the idea of monters being stopped by heroes has been around since WW2 and the golden age of comics, the very Godzilla setting Monster Island seems like a misfit.

 

Now as an alternate universe embracing Ultraman, Inframan, Jet Jaguar et al? Booyah, crack me out some Ninja Hero and someone start writing Kaiju Hero so we can all relive our childhoods.

[Hermit]

Re: the 5th Edition CU is by far the best

 

Overall, I prefer the 5e universe. The registration act is one area where I balk... I just can't see it working in a world with Cybermind let alone Dr. Destroyer and others. It should be akin to asking heroes adding their name to death row.

 

However, I love the time line, the many homages Darren has slipped into every decade and the guy really manages to make his love and knowledge of the Genre known by his writing. The coverage of various sub categories and how they interact with heroes has been quite well done without forcing us into a particular age. It is very easy to change it to be more Silver or more Iron or what have you.

 

I haven't seen the 5th CU as particularly closed off or inviolate, far from it, the message we get in any setting is "It's yours, change what suits you". The stuff we're given is set in ink, not stone, but if you want a pre made universe RIGHT NOW this one is pretty good.

 

I don't think it's narrow, so much as in the process of still branching out. That can take time. The mystic side of things is flourishing nicely by most reports and other welcome projects will open up Ravenswood and the like in greater detail. Waiting maybe the hardest part.

[lemming]

Re: the 5th Edition CU is by far the best

 

Actually there were bits to like of the CNM version as well.

 

But I steal shamelessly from all.

[Metaphysician]

Re: the 5th Edition CU is by far the best

 

I was wondering' date=' how many people incorporate Neutral Ground - in some fashion or another - into what is more or less a 5E game? I always liked the concept, haven't used it in my current campaign (and would have to change some details to use it), but have considered it.[/quote']

 

Let me just say that, conceptually speaking, I think a visit to some form of Neutral Ground would be an interesting scenario for our campaign.

[Metaphysician]

Re: the 5th Edition CU is by far the best

 

Oh, and re: registration- keep in mind that there aren't really any registration schemes that would do more than the current one does, without unacceptably trampling on civil rights.

[Sketchpad]

Re: the 5th Edition CU is by far the best

 

I use a bar & grill as a kind of Neutral Ground ... It's in, of all places, NC

[FenrisUlf]

Re: the 5th Edition CU is by far the best

 

Personally, I like the 5th ed. CU; it's got something for everyone. You can do grim and gritty, goofy Silver Age, or whatever.

 

I especially like the background characters; indeed, they sound like such original-yet-faithful homages to the original comic book characters I've seen outside Astro City.

 

Keep up the great work folks!

[CBikle]

Re: the 5th Edition CU is by far the best

 

Although I don't care for all the changes, I'm very impressed with the new Hero Games reliability in getting product out consistently and punctually.

[fbdaury]

Re: the 5th Edition CU is by far the best

 

While I like some of the new things(USPD and dying to get my hands on the new Viper Book), I prefer just about any previous version of the CU, including the CNM, to the 5th version. It lacks the vibrancy and chaos of the past versions and I feel that is a terrible loss. Also, and this is no slight on Steve, but I have always felt that many authors strenghtens the mix- one thing that pissed me off about Palladium games even when I liked them, was the fact that one guy wrote nearly every book, and yet all the greatest things written for that company, weren't written by him. But, in his defense, he did create the game and create its universe so they really were "his to ruin"- such is not the case here, while I appreciate the current group for saving Hero from destruction, they are not living up (IMHO) to the precedents set by those that created the game and developed the world. The worst thing for me is seeeing things from past CUs that I loved (such as CLOWN and Neutral Ground) not making the cut simply because Steve doesn't like them... so what? Then he can let someone else who does like the characters update them to the current CU. He may own the system but his decisions are tantamount to someone buying MArvel or DC and then killing off long time heroes for no better reason than "I don't like them and I don't care what the readers think." But, that's just my opinion and most will likely not agree, so be it.