PoorWandering 1 Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 I can't seem to get my head around this advantage. It seems that this advantage is nothing more than a way to avoid buying skill levels. As I currently understand the advantage it would allow an attack, say a simple EB to hit someone using a hostage as a shield, in the same hex in other words, at DCV 3 regardless of the fact that the target has say DEX 33 DCV 11 with at least 50% cover provided by the hostage. This makes no sense to me so I am calling for help. Has anyone seen this advantaged used in a way that doesn't ring the cheese alarm? What SFX would call for it? Have I completely misunderstood how the advantage works? Will Batman survive this fiendish trap? (sorry Adam West moment) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Re: AOE 1 hex Accurate. HELP!!! To me, the tradeoff between AOE 1 hex and AOE 1 HEX Accrate is that: (a) You get the advantage, as you note, of not hitting the hostage. ( You have the drawback that the target can reduce the likelihood of being hit by (IIRC) dodge and similar maneuvers. Whether that is considered cheesy is a matter of opinion. Is the D&D magic missile spell (which always hits) to be consoidered cheesy? If yes, than this should also be considered cheesy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Re: AOE 1 hex Accurate. HELP!!! I agree with Hugh, but I'd add that I don't think an advantage needs to have a drawback. Pay the extra points, get an (almost) always hits attack. If it works in the genre you're trying to simulate, keep the power in. If it doesn't, ban the construct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoorWandering 1 Posted September 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Re: AOE 1 hex Accurate. HELP!!! Cool thanks. I thought it was trying to be a "does not miss" advantage but I couldn't get around it being related to the area of effect advantage. I suppose its cleaner than just buying a handfull of ocv levels with the power in question. Has anyone used it or seen it used in play? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kolava Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Re: AOE 1 hex Accurate. HELP!!! How does Dodge work with an Accurate attack anyway? Does it increase the DCV from 3 to 6 (or 8)? Are Accurate attacks really considered AOE at all, for missle deflection purposes, for example? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoorWandering 1 Posted September 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Re: AOE 1 hex Accurate. HELP!!! From what i found in the FAQ it appears that the advantage only negates the base DCV of the target so dodges and manuvers will apply to the dcv of the hex. Missle def would depend on the SFX, i think. Hmmm i wonder if target cover, poor light, etc would effect the attack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Re: AOE 1 hex Accurate. HELP!!! I'm not sure what the book says, but I'd be inclined to do it the opposite way: Dodge doesn't help, but cover (hostage) does. My reasoning is: 1) It's based on AE: One Hex, which hits everything in the hex at DCV 3 (or 0 if adjacent). 2) I wouldn't allow OHA to target "the bad guy's trigger finger on his right hand" at DCV 3, just "the bad guy." 3) Therefore I assume the idea is that the target is man-sized. In other words, OHA allows you to hit a person with the same accuracy as you'd hit an immobile hex. 4) Therefore, a target that was smaller than a man would have a higher DCV, even with OHA.* 5) And a target with 50% cover is effectively making himself 50% smaller wrt the attack. This allows hostage situations to still be exciting, even if you have a One Hex Accurate attack. I realize that this may be in direct contradiction to the rules in the book, but it seems to make sense to me (at the moment, I may change my mind at any moment without notice). IDHMBIFOM.** *Unless it was an immobile inanimate object. ** Pronounced: "ID' m - BUY' fom" to rhyme with "hit 'em high, mom." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinecone Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Re: AOE 1 hex Accurate. HELP!!! The only big down side to 1 hex accurate is Dive for cover 1 hex... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinecone Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Re: AOE 1 hex Accurate. HELP!!! Drat my sticky keyboard... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 Re: AOE 1 hex Accurate. HELP!!! Its a good Advantage and Ive used it alot. Basically, they can Dodge it, D4C to get away, and what not so its not "always hit". Range Penalties also apply. Its a good trade off for it's cost vs an Explosion or a 1 hex at 1/2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatwyrm Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 Re: AOE 1 hex Accurate. HELP!!! What SFX would call for it? heat seeking missile a very accurate magic sword a trap set to swing/shoot at a specific spot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffreyWKramer Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 Re: AOE 1 hex Accurate. HELP!!! IWhat SFX would call for it? A guy with a great, big hand, but enough fine motor dexterity and eye-hand coordination to attack just one of a group of targets in the same area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zed-F Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 Re: AOE 1 hex Accurate. HELP!!! What SFX would call for it? For an entangle, I might use it for a bola. It will really only hit one person but it's got a big enough attack area that it's not easy to dodge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithcurtis Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 Re: AOE 1 hex Accurate. HELP!!! Could none of these sfx be just as accurately modeled with skill levels? Count me in with the crowd that doesn't get this one. I've read the description over and over and can't get my head around it. It seems to be a permutation of the Hero mechanics than a needed way to model a special effect. Keith "just sayin' " Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 Re: AOE 1 hex Accurate. HELP!!! What about a super-speedster? Say a character who has plenty of extra running but also has a 'burst-mode' bought as teleport with the limitation that he has to travel the intervening space. The same character might also have an area affect TK (with relatively low STR) defined as him running around in 'burst-mode' to take away agents guns. Also, the same special effect seems to scream extreme accuracy of actions due to super-speed 'bursts' (1hex accurate) As a GM I would much rather this character used 1 hex accurate instead of skill levels for one simple reason. Drains would NOT affect skill levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithcurtis Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 Re: AOE 1 hex Accurate. HELP!!! What about a super-speedster? Say a character who has plenty of extra running but also has a 'burst-mode' bought as teleport with the limitation that he has to travel the intervening space. The same character might also have an area affect TK (with relatively low STR) defined as him running around in 'burst-mode' to take away agents guns. Also, the same special effect seems to scream extreme accuracy of actions due to super-speed 'bursts' (1hex accurate) As a GM I would much rather this character used 1 hex accurate instead of skill levels for one simple reason. Drains would NOT affect skill levels. Point 1: I'm not sure why you would need teleport to simulate running. Could you elaborate on "Burst Mode"? Point 2: He would still need the "Disarm" maneuver. Als, are you saying this would be a case for 1 hex accurate? How many battles have two agents in one hex? Point 3: really refers to points 1 and 2, I guess. These don't convince me. However your final point (outside the bullets) seems to address the problem. I wasn't aware that drains couldn't drain skill levels. (Is this true?) But how many people have a drain vs. Teleport or TK ready to use against a speedster? Keith "Remaining unconvinced, but still listening with an open mind" Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 Re: AOE 1 hex Accurate. HELP!!! Point 1: I'm not sure why you would need teleport to simulate running. Could you elaborate on "Burst Mode"? Point 2: He would still need the "Disarm" maneuver. Als, are you saying this would be a case for 1 hex accurate? How many battles have two agents in one hex? Point 3: really refers to points 1 and 2, I guess. These don't convince me. However your final point (outside the bullets) seems to address the problem. I wasn't aware that drains couldn't drain skill levels. (Is this true?) But how many people have a drain vs. Teleport or TK ready to use against a speedster? Keith "Remaining unconvinced, but still listening with an open mind" Curtis my burst mode reference was a generic reference to the ability of characters like Flash and Superman to move so fast that they can't be seen. They aren't really teleporting but designing the effect via invisibility only with movement power seems far more clunky. and actually examples very similar to all 3 are in the UNTIL Superpowers Database. I am not sure on the skill vs. power drain issue. just going on intuition. as far as a drain vs. a specific power it also seems logical that a drain would only have to affect the special effect, multipower or EC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithcurtis Posted September 25, 2004 Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 Re: AOE 1 hex Accurate. HELP!!! my burst mode reference was a generic reference to the ability of characters like Flash and Superman to move so fast that they can't be seen. They aren't really teleporting but designing the effect via invisibility only with movement power seems far more clunky. Why is 1 hex accurate needed on this, though? Teleport doesn't require a to-hit roll. and actually examples very similar to all 3 are in the UNTIL Superpowers Database. That's fine. 1 hex accurate is in Fred. I'm just questioning the reasoning behind the mechanic, not its legitimacy. It's obviously canon. I am not sure on the skill vs. power drain issue. just going on intuition. as far as a drain vs. a specific power it also seems logical that a drain would only have to affect the special effect, multipower or EC. If you drain someone's Area Effect TK, then their skill levels on an area effect TK disarm become moot. I guess the whole thing is academic in my case, since I'm never likely to need the mechanic. If it works for you, more power to ya. Keith "Quick, Robin! Hand me a witty saying for my quote!" Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted September 27, 2004 Report Share Posted September 27, 2004 Re: AOE 1 hex Accurate. HELP!!! Could none of these sfx be just as accurately modeled with skill levels? Count me in with the crowd that doesn't get this one. I've read the description over and over and can't get my head around it. It seems to be a permutation of the Hero mechanics than a needed way to model a special effect. Keith "just sayin' " Curtis Maybe because using skill levels has an undesired effect regarding low-average DCV targets. In the case of heat-seeking missiles, skill has very little to do with how accurate the thing is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted September 27, 2004 Report Share Posted September 27, 2004 Re: AOE 1 hex Accurate. HELP!!! As far as the SFX that would appropriate to the mechanic, any SFX with an appropriate end result can be suited to it. The effect is an attack that is easy to hit with like an AoE, but affects a point target like a non-AoE. Ergo, it's a in-betweener state. If there is ever a time where you think "this attack should be hard to miss with, but should only affect one person", AoE 1 Hex Accurate is a way to do this along with LOS and NRP, or using the same points to just buy more CSLs with the attack for the same net affect. NRP and LOS both have their Pro's and Con's in comparison to AoE 1" Acc. All three will improve the OCV vs DCV calculation, and each have different sweet spots where they are more efficient, with subtle shadings between them. Where AoE 1" Acc shines comparitively is vs opponents that have an innately high DCV, and/or that are relatively close to the attacker. Comparing AoE 1" Acc against CSL's with the attack is going to swing a bit however, since CSL's have a flat cost, but the cost of a Power Advantage is determined from a variable Base Cost. Usually the CSL option will be cheaper for the same net effect (target gets hit). However, a mechanical advantage to going the AoE 1" Acc route is that the resulting product is self contained. This becomes significant if the intended effect is limited in some fashion, like a OAF: Pistol for example. Then to buy CSLs and bundle them into the OAF: Pistol you have to make them 5 point Skill Levels so you can apply a Limitation. And you are left with a kludgy inelegant solution. And, as someone else noted above, CSL's are skill based, and mechanically represent learned, personal behaviour. Skills bought as Powers don't have that connotation necessarily, but thats the general behavior of skills. In some cases skill of the shooter has absolutely nothing, or very little to do with hitting the target. This most often comes up with guided attacks, like tracking spells, heat-seeking (or radar, laser, wire, or otherwise guided) missiles, and so forth, but can also be used to represent things like advanced targeting systems. The old Shadowrun "Smart-linked" weapons could be modeled with a AoE 1" Acc Advantage for example. It could also be used to model characters with hyper-senses of some sort. You might design a Daredevil clone who's "Throw Billyclub" EB has AoE 1" Acc on it to represent that range does matter but he's prolly going to hit you otherwise. Etc. So basically the point is any time that an Attack a) Isnt based upon the users actual attacking skill, is affected by Range, c) affects a point target, and d) is very accurate you have a good case for applying AoE 1" Radius to model it, regardless of SFX. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinecone Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 Re: AOE 1 hex Accurate. HELP!!! The Only time I can see a big diff between Lots'o levels and AE:1 hex accurate is if you use rhe optional rule for critical hits...then there is a big diff ...otherwise it seems like a style thang.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithcurtis Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 Re: AOE 1 hex Accurate. HELP!!! Well stated KS. I am convinced there is a very narrow category of sfx best modeled by this mechanic. I still don't know if I would ever use it, but that's just me. Keith "standing corrected" Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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