Have you ever ... ? Brute Force Psych Lim Enforcement

[CrosshairCollie]

Just a quick question I was wondering about. Let's say you have a character in the group with Overconfident (a classic favorite). However, you notice as he fights that he fights very defensively, levels on Defense, holding actions to dodge or dive for cover, etc.

 

Have you ever just looked at him and just said, "Actually. Mr. Muscle there has Overconfidence as a total Psych Lim ... he just stands there and takes it." or something 'hammer-in-the-face'-ish like that? Where you basically, if momentary, 'grab control' of the character because the PC has forgotten, or is choosing not to, play his Psych Lims?

 

(This presumes a Total limitation, of course; otherwise, have you ever called for an Ego roll for a Strong lim?)

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: Have you ever ... ? Brute Force Psych Lim Enforcement

 

In that sort of situation, I would ask the player to define the nature of the character's Overconfidence. An exceptional martial artist or a speedster might well be overconfident because he is so certain of his or her ability to dodge, block or deflect attacks that he or she is willing to throw him/herself into just about any situation. Remo Williams and Chiun sometimes behave in that manner in combat (though you can argue in their case that this is just appropriate confidence, not overconfidence). In any case, that can be valid, and that's quite different than the sort of Overconfidence that leads one to rush in assuming he or she can just overpower the opposition.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Have you ever ... ? Brute Force Psych Lim Enforcement

 

OTOH, that also means said Overconfident character is unlikely to realize that a given opponent *can* hit him despite DCV until he does. . .

[KA.]

Re: Have you ever ... ? Brute Force Psych Lim Enforcement

 

Great question, CrosshairCollie!

 

I think this goes back to character design. If someone takes a Total Psych Lim, I would imagine that it would come up nearly all of the time.

They should be Overconfident at Work, in Battle, in Relationships, everywhere.

If they see their character as only being Overconfident in social situations, that is going to be worth a lot fewer points.

So, I think that I would handle what you describe in private, with the player.

I would basically say:

"Your character has 20 points worth of Overconfidence. To me, that means that you will tend to overestimate your powers, underestimate your foes powers, and generally take the "direct approach" when it comes to combat.

If you don't see it that way, then we need to work together to come up with exactly how your character is Overconfident, and then come up with a reasonable point value for that, and figure out how to get your character balanced out. You may need to reduce the value of that Limitation, and then perhaps add a new one, or remove some of your character points, to balance things out.

Or, if you do want your character to have that level of Overconfidence, I expect you to play him that way.

If you don't, then I will have to start holding back Experience points to buy down the Limitation to the level you seem to be playing it at.

This does not just go for you, it goes for everyone in the campaign."

 

KA.

[OddHat]

Re: Have you ever ... ? Brute Force Psych Lim Enforcement

 

I used to call for Ego roles, but what I do now is a bit different.

 

After the player writes or tells me an origin story, I ask them to pick a few psych limits from there. I have a set of mandatory disads for the campaign, and suggest a few optional disads for the character. The character then goes into play with up to 25 "open" disadvantage points (players option). After I see the character in play, I ask the player what psych limits the character has, and then asign those points. If he hasn't played the character in a way that suggests psych limits, the points remain as a mystery disadvantage to be added later.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Have you ever ... ? Brute Force Psych Lim Enforcement

 

Thanks for the responses.

 

I had a conversation like KAs once. The character had Thrillseeker; he was a rich kid who did 'extreme' stunts to entertain himself ... until he got superpowers. Skydiving loses its excitement factor when you can fly, for example. So he's thinking about it later, and going "How can my character be a thrillseeker when his powers make everything safe?"

 

And I'm just ... "Dude ... that's why you fight SUPERVILLAINS. You want a danger rush? You want adrenaline surges? Here come the Ultimates! You should be blasting away at point-blank range and loving every minute of it!"

 

"No ... I'll take up scuba diving."

 

*facepalm*

 

To his credit, his powers (ice and flame control) did make scubadiving somewhat dangerous (even though he could just ice-armor up and float). But ... I just never saw the thrillseeker on the battlefield.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Have you ever ... ? Brute Force Psych Lim Enforcement

 

Just a quick question I was wondering about. Let's say you have a character in the group with Overconfident (a classic favorite). However, you notice as he fights that he fights very defensively, levels on Defense, holding actions to dodge or dive for cover, etc.

 

Have you ever just looked at him and just said, "Actually. Mr. Muscle there has Overconfidence as a total Psych Lim ... he just stands there and takes it." or something 'hammer-in-the-face'-ish like that? Where you basically, if momentary, 'grab control' of the character because the PC has forgotten, or is choosing not to, play his Psych Lims?

 

(This presumes a Total limitation, of course; otherwise, have you ever called for an Ego roll for a Strong lim?)

 

Fortunately, I've never had to - and one of my players does have 20 point Overconfident. He has called out Firewing because that will free up the rest of the group to deal with the lesser threats. During that fight, he decided he should dodge (once) so he could get a PS 12 recovery and keep fighting. He made the decision he needed to make an Ego roll at significant penalties to use Dodge - the only time in the campaign he has ever dodged. It's also the only time I can ever recall a player making an ego roll for his psych (although I'm sure I've seen some of them do it on their own for minor infractions).

 

Our group takes psych limitations pretty seriously - the Ego roll is viewed as available only where the character has a strong motivation to breach the disadvantage in the first place. That always makes me happy when I hear about players with mentalists taking "moderate" psychs because they know they can make the Ego roll 95%+ of the time.

[levi]

Re: Have you ever ... ? Brute Force Psych Lim Enforcement

 

In my current campaign I have a player that has a character with the Psych Lim: Honorable. Recently he was doing some questionable things, like lying to his family (about his Secret ID as a hero) and torturing a thug to get information. The other players started chastizing him about not living up to his RP responsibility.

 

I have seen this several times and I usually see one of two responses. Either, "I want to spend some XPs to buy that Disad off." or "Sorry about that, you are right...lemme try that scene again."

 

This player chose the first option and is now saving up the points to buy off the disad. How do you other GMs feel about players taking this option?

[OddHat]

Re: Have you ever ... ? Brute Force Psych Lim Enforcement

 

This player chose the first option and is now saving up the points to buy off the disad. How do you other GMs feel about players taking this option?

 

This is why I leave Psych Limits open for the first few game sessions. It lets the player get a handle on his character.

 

I think part of the problem (only part) comes from allowing too many points in disadvantages to begin with. I've seen many campaigns where disads just never came up at all; with four players each having four psych limts, one secret, one distinctive feature, two hunteds and one DNPC or rival, just keeping track of the whole mess requires campaign notes and a chart. I've run games where I just dropped the number of disad points to 75 and increased the number of starting points to get around this; worked fine.

[pinecone]

Re: Have you ever ... ? Brute Force Psych Lim Enforcement

 

If I HAD too I'd start lowering Eps for not playing in character...I've never had too...BUT I don't let people off with Just Overconfidence anymore...it sounds like a classic case of differing expectations...so I like Overconfidence:Swashbuckler, or Overconf.:Passivly suicidal...like that...so that we all know how the chars psych lim manifests so for your expectation I'd have Overconf.:Fearless or something like that to avoid taking levels in DCV, otherwise I may be overconf. Because I have a gigantic DCV.......

[Metaphysician]

Re: Have you ever ... ? Brute Force Psych Lim Enforcement

 

I did something a little like that with my current character. Had a psych limit initially that just didn't end up "fitting" the character, so I switched it for a limit that I was already RPing anyway.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Have you ever ... ? Brute Force Psych Lim Enforcement

 

There are a lot of reasons a PC can be Overconfident. There's a considerable difference between a brick's "I can fight Grond by myself because I'm tough" and a Martial Artist's "I can delay Grond 'til the rest of the team arrives because big green can't hit me." Both can represent overconfidence, but they spring from totally different thought processes. There's nothing that requires Overconfident characters to fight stupidly; but by the same token such characters tend to bite off more than they can chew.

 

In our campaign, it tends to lead towards characters jumping into a situation before they've studied it closely. In my own character's case, Zl'f has a tendency to think she can always fight two or more opponents at once, and she has a tendency to go for the direct approach. Sometimes she even can, which is part of why she's overconfident. But sometimes she gets clobbered,which is why it's now at a 15 point level and not at 20 like it was when she started adventuring. The bruises have taken a bit of the edge off.

 

Now, thinking a 350 point PC can take on Dr. Destroyer alone isn't overconfident, it's more accurately "Foolhardy."

[Vondy]

Re: Have you ever ... ? Brute Force Psych Lim Enforcement

 

One of the maxims I follow as a gamemaster is "never seize control of a player character" - now its a maxim, which means there are exceptions (such as mind control, which I use extremely sparingly), but its a good maxim to follow. Players just don't enjoy the game when you tell them how to run their character for some reason.

 

With that said - I have been somewhat brutal about this sort of thing when its become problematic in the past, however. If the player received points for a disad then they need to play the character accordingly. The approach I've taken when this crops up is a touch different:

 

1) First Time: tell the player its a problem and ask them to define the limitation and how they perceive this as affecting the character's actions or abilities, or whatnot.

 

This alerts them to the fact that there may be a problem and ensures both player and GM have the same understanding of it (asking them to do this before play is even better, but you live and learn).

 

2) Second Time: tell the player that if they do not play the lim they lose the lim - and the points that go with it.

 

3) Third Time: they lose the lim - and the points that go with it. Trust me, there is nothing more effective than forcing a player to whittle 15-20 points off of a character in terms of driving a point home.

 

Before you do this, however, you really want to make sure you are on the same page as the player - and that the player understands what the expectations are.

[wylodmayer]

Re: Have you ever ... ? Brute Force Psych Lim Enforcement

 

I've never really had to go around on this issue too much. Players who need "brute force" psych lim enforcement just aren't invited back to my games.

 

That being said, my current players and I often discuss how a particular psych lim might need to be played, or applied in a given situation. Overconfidence isn't seen too often in our games, since it can be a very dangerous limitation. On the other hand, how it comes up is relative to the character. One skilled normal in our game had it, and used Dodges and Blocks all the time; this was acceptable to me, since even being in a fight with some of his foes constituted Overconfidence in my opinion. I don't think an Overconfidence character will necessarily use bad tactics, but might make bad overall judgments. For instance, the pc may fight very shrewdly... but having entered a fight against, say, Gravitar, without back up, he's still pretty screwed.

[Acroyear]

Re: Have you ever ... ? Brute Force Psych Lim Enforcement

 

Overconfidence, itself, is usually misunderstood. So many people equate it to enraged or berserk on some level that using it as an example is usually an exercise in futility.

 

It's my experience that usually players only need a reminding of their psychs to go along with them if they seem to be missing them. If they need more than that, well, you can either force their hand a little bit or just deduct from the xp reward for playing out of character. The latter is often the most successful method of player wrangling.

[MisterD]

Re: Have you ever ... ? Brute Force Psych Lim Enforcement

 

My character with overconfidence always rushed into battle (when possible).

 

The character will use DCV when needed.

 

Her overconfidence takes the form of looking before she leeps ieaps into battle. Once in battle she will fight defencively if needed but will not leave a fight till she won or is draged away.