Millenium City

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Starcorp Man

Gah sorry No Bubble to Burst thank you, can't someone say anything that isn't party line? He wrote the Enemies book did he not, and co write the Universe did he not, and is the head designer/writer so his influence is there.

What is it exactly that you do not like about the new Champions Universe? Is it that they did not continue on using the 23 year old mish-mash universe? Is it that they incoporated a new team of Champions so that they did not have to continue on the Seeker joke? Is it that they added 50 new villains to the universe, and they were villains you did not want? What exactly is it, that every time Steve is mentioned you feel the need to spit venom? I'm really just curious how a single game designer can inspire such antipathy in you.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Starcorp Man

And the jab that bugs me, if they are not going to have them, fine they are gone, don't make the last final stab about it, knowing that there are already people non too pleased.

You edited while I was typing.

 

So, the fact that DOJ included a picture of a comic book with Seeker getting beating (clearly for nostalgia) is what has you so upset? The fact that Seeker is on a dozen covers getting beaten did not bother you, but the fact that he is on the cover of a comic book getting beaten does?

[Starcorp Man]

Obviously you've read every single post I have ever written plus some, but I have nothing against Steve as a person, or a rules guy, some of the rules changes were good, some were not. I don't like the Universe changes, the changes just to change and the Universe becoming someones campaign world.

 

Honestly, since you've already started off this way, it would be useless to continue, you have already made your stance and want blood to move it, showing that you hunky dory with the changes and embrace the new order, no thanks.

 

Edit: Gah you want to fight don't you. No it's the percieved mind set about the picture included, further making it a joke. I really don't care they are gone, yes I liked them more then the current but fine their gone, and the displeasure towards it has been made often about the changes, by multiple individuals yet it's thrown in for the one last jab.

[Nato]

Originally posted by Starcorp Man

He wrote the Enemies book did he not, and co write the Universe did he not, and is the head designer/writer so his influence is there. I'm sorry that I didn't like the line becomming someone's campaign world.. actually I'm not sorry.

 

I don't really understand why this bugs some people? It's like saying you're upset that Hemmingway drew upon personal experience when writing his works. If you had the duty of writing a campaign universe, would you not use ideas from a successful campaign that you created? I think most of us would do the same. I don't see anything wrong with that. If you don't like the characters that's fine; that happens. I don't care for Morrison's take on the X-Men, even though it's still one of the most popular comics today. I don't like a lot of the new characters that he introduced, while removing some old favorites. Is this perhaps what you object to with the new CU?

 

Side note - I also hate the way Morrison writes characters. These seem like the coldest, most heartless X-Men ever to me. I can't connect with any of them, including old favorites of mine such as Cyclops and the Beast. But I like Frank Quietly's art a lot so I pick it up now and again.

 

[Blue]

Well, that's kind of funny, Star, because the original line was someone's campaign world. You're just used to it by now.

 

Personally, I like evolution. I'd be less likely to buy if every version had the same characters reworked and the same setting.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Starcorp Man

Honestly, since you've already started off this way, it would be useless to continue, you have already made your stance and want blood to move it, showing that you hunky dory with the changes and embrace the new order, no thanks.

Actually I have not made any stance. I was just wondering what all the spite was about.

 

And just as a point of reference, the only posts I do not read every day on this message board are those made in the non-gaming forum. So there is a very good bet that I have read every post you have made outside of that forum.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Blue

Personally, I like evolution. I'd be less likely to buy if every version had the same characters reworked and the same setting.

I'm with you completely. If I wanted to continue on the same path as 23 year old material, I'd just play Champions with all my 4th Edition books. Things need to keep changing or they stagnate. I don't necessarily like all the 5th Edition world changes, but they don't drive me to make spiteful posts either.

[Starcorp Man]

To continue off topic. I don't mind change when it is needed, I loath unneeded change to fit someones demographic.

 

Okay Nato, you have hit the nail pretty much on the head. You read a comic, with the same writer, penciler and story set up. Now after a loooong time, some new guy comes in (Joe Casey comes to mind) and says, well we knew you were a fan before so... too bad, this is what is going to happen, remember this team/story/set up you like, gone the eXtreme team is now 4 people instead of 8, they are all brothers, yes we know that Gigachick was originally a female but now he's a secret crossdresser. You know their villian Omnidude, Gigachicks father, well now it's just her neighbor, who actually doesn't wear a power suit evil genius, he's a mystic master from the orient...

[Starcorp Man]

Just because I don't agree with everything and warmly accept it doesn't mean I'm spiteful.

 

Is it that they did not continue on using the 23 year old mish-mash universe? Is it that they incoporated a new team of Champions so that they did not have to continue on the Seeker joke? Is it that they added 50 new villains to the universe, and they were villains you did not want

 

Dude, that's not a stance? You've already dismissed it as mish mash.

[Nuadha]

"that I didn't like the line becomming someone's campaign world.. "

 

I don't understand the problem with this either. Most RPG settings seem borrow heavily from an established campaign and the Wild Cards novels were based off of a V&V campaign. This has never made them less valid to me. If they're good, they're good, no matter where the ideas came from.

 

Side note: On Morrison's X-Men, I'm the exact opposite. I'm loving Morrison's writing (although I agree that the characters have been less-lovable than before) but HATE Quitely's art. At times, it's been so distracting for me that I've had a hard time reading the comics.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Starcorp Man

Dude, that's not a stance? You've already dismissed it as mish mash.

It is a statement, not a stance. I think anyone who has been with the game over a period of years realizes that the CU was made by several different authors, some of which contradicted each other at times. There was no continuity to the old CU. It was just: Here are 50 books, fit in whatever you want. Thus my term "mish-mash."

[Starcorp Man]

Originally posted by Nuadha I don't understand the problem with this either. Most RPG settings seem borrow heavily from an established campaign and the Wild Cards novels were based off of a V&V campaign. This has never made them less valid to me. If they're good, they're good, no matter where the ideas came from.

 

Okay, look at the beginnings and for most of the line, there was very little "this is someguys campaign," style to it, then came StrikeForce, which was someone's campaign, but it wasn't "the official world," then the BBB pretty much brought out the universe, connecting everything and making a working universe (it already was if you had all the supplements, all it did was cement it), and it wasn't some guys campaign.

 

Yes I understand there were rights lost for certain villains, that's cool don't make them, have more villains, make more but dumping them because "well I don't like these guys," seems rather lame. Seemingly changing something "Heck Bob killed of the Assassin in the game last Thursday, lets yank him." which is what a lot of the changes feel like.

[Nato]

Originally posted by Starcorp Man

To continue off topic. I don't mind change when it is needed, I loath unneeded change to fit someones demographic.

 

Okay Nato, you have hit the nail pretty much on the head. You read a comic, with the same writer, penciler and story set up. Now after a loooong time, some new guy comes in (Joe Casey comes to mind) and says, well we knew you were a fan before so... too bad, this is what is going to happen, remember this team/story/set up you like, gone the eXtreme team is now 4 people instead of 8, they are all brothers, yes we know that Gigachick was originally a female but now he's a secret crossdresser. You know their villian Omnidude, Gigachicks father, well now it's just her neighbor, who actually doesn't wear a power suit evil genius, he's a mystic master from the orient...

 

Ok, also look at it this way. There was quite a long span between the 4th edition products and when the 5th edition, with new universe, came out. That's not really like a new comic writer taking over a monthly comic. It's more akin to a relaunch. Almost like the Ultimate line by Marvel. There's been years since 4th edition products. Now ownership has changed and a new product line is out. Yes, it is very different. I personally like the new universe. There's enough of the old, especially with villains, that it doesn't feel completely foreign to me.

 

I personally enjoy the new Champions characters. Their backgrounds are much, much longer than the meager paragraph included for each member in the BBB. They seem more thought out to me. Whether you think they are generic concepts or not is one thing, but I think you have to agree that things like background, personaility, tactics, etc... are more fleshed out than in previous editions. I especially like CKC for the backgrounds, and plot seeds. I enjoy just sitting down and reading it. To me, it feels like a bunch of short stories, that I can use in my own games.

[Blue]

Originally posted by Starcorp Man

To continue off topic. I don't mind change when it is needed, I loath unneeded change to fit someones demographic.

 

Okay Nato, you have hit the nail pretty much on the head. You read a comic, with the same writer, penciler and story set up. Now after a loooong time, some new guy comes in (Joe Casey comes to mind) and says, well we knew you were a fan before so... too bad, this is what is going to happen, remember this team/story/set up you like, gone the eXtreme team is now 4 people instead of 8, they are all brothers, yes we know that Gigachick was originally a female but now he's a secret crossdresser. You know their villian Omnidude, Gigachicks father, well now it's just her neighbor, who actually doesn't wear a power suit evil genius, he's a mystic master from the orient...

 

I fully understand this criticism. But that's not really what's happening on the other end. When a guy gets assigned to a book he's got ideas and he thinks they're going to shake the world. He's not changing it just to spit anyone. Everyone makes changes because they think they're the right thing to do. Sometimes they radically alter things and everyone is happy, and sometimes not. But there's no conspiracy.

[Starcorp Man]

Originally posted by Nato

Ok, also look at it this way. There was quite a long span between the 4th edition products and when the 5th edition, with new universe, came out. That's not really like a new comic writer taking over a monthly comic. It's more akin to a relaunch. Almost like the Ultimate line by Marvel. There's been years since 4th edition products. Now ownership has changed and a new product line is out. Yes, it is very different. I personally like the new universe. There's enough of the old, especially with villains, that it doesn't feel completely foreign to me.

 

Well I'm not a fan of the Ultimate line either Seriously, once again I don't have a problem with change, and I like some of the changes rules wise, universe is kinda eh. I have no problems with the new people, the origins or the cool little sidebars, it's the changes to the old ones that make it feel blagh.

 

Originally posted by Nato I personally enjoy the new Champions characters. Their backgrounds are much, much longer than the meager paragraph included for each member in the BBB. They seem more thought out to me. Whether you think they are generic concepts or not is one thing, but I think you have to agree that things like background, personaility, tactics, etc... are more fleshed out than in previous editions. I especially like CKC for the backgrounds, and plot seeds. I enjoy just sitting down and reading it. To me, it feels like a bunch of short stories, that I can use in my own games.

 

I'll agree, they have more indepth backgrounds (well then in the BBB, some of the Champions were expanded in other books). It's not just about the champions, it's just the whole scheme of the thing that left me wanting. I didn't set out to say "I must hate all revisions," when it came out. I'm big into hero, have since the beginning of the whole thing, and really really wanted to like everything.

[Starcorp Man]

Originally posted by Blue

I fully understand this criticism. But that's not really what's happening on the other end. When a guy gets assigned to a book he's got ideas and he thinks they're going to shake the world. He's not changing it just to spit anyone. Everyone makes changes because they think they're the right thing to do. Sometimes they radically alter things and everyone is happy, and sometimes not. But there's no conspiracy.

 

The example was just tongue and cheek Blue. I understand about being assigned to books, I write game material too, and have friends who work in the industry of both games and comics, and I've seen the looks they get when something new comes along. I don't think it's spite at all that it was done, and I'm not trying to be spitful just disagreeing with a chosen path.

[Nuadha]

Originally posted by Blue

Sometimes they radically alter things and everyone is happy...

I've never seen it happen where everyone is happy. There wil always be someone who preferred it the old way.

 

Side note: I still can't accept Kyle Rayner as Green Lantern and I 'm still a little sore about the whole "Hal Jordan goes insane and kills the Green Lantern Corps" storyline. At the time it seemed forced and just the writer "spitting in the eye" of Hal's fans. Now I understand why the writer did it. He wanted a youthful character as GL and none of the baggage of the GL Corps. He thought it would be better. Some people agreed. Many did not. These days we're seeing multiple GLs again and the return of the Guardians and Hal Jordan was redeemed as a character in the Spectre. It's all good.

[Killer Shrike]

Personally, I hated the old Champions Universe (it was indeed a mish-mash IMO as Monolith said) and NEVER used it. Not only was it a complete mess, it was also boring and overly goofy -- again in my opinion. Too many of the characters were just silly, and the ones that werent were mostly generic and uninteresting. I mean, did the world really need Gweenies for example?

 

I'm really loving the new CU however, overall. Its got a good feel to it, and captures a lot of the things I liked about comics when I was growing up. I mean, I havent collected in 10 years give or take, but the new CU material motivated me to go dig up some of my comics and read through them again. Sadly, most of the comics that I really enjoyed in the day seem pretty weak to me a decade later (for example, I used to really like Chris Clairmonte when I was a kid, now his dialogue seems almost painfully bad, his plot lines overly dramatic (and on occasion melodramatic) and his characterizations really heavyhanded -- IMO, YMMV of course).

 

Who cares if it is heavily influenced by someones campaign, so long as the campaign was solid? So much the better then, than some random collection of as-they-thought-of-it material duct taped together, and with a few serial numbers filed off of derivative characters to protect the plaigerist.

 

I like the fact that CU, while nodding its head to some classic staples of the genre, isnt bound by slavish aping of existing characters. Do we need Arachnidman or Mr. Incredibly Bendy in CU? Noooooooooo!

 

 

Ultimately, if you prefer the old 4th edition era 'Universe', there is absolutely nothing stopping you from using that as is with 5th Edition. If you like elements of new CU, then just incorporate them into your retro-Universe. The differences between 4th and 5th are so niggling mechanically that you can pretty much run the charcaters side by side from both versions, making corrections on the fly if necessary. Very little was changed; some things were reclassified, and quite a bit was added but that doesnt really matter much in the bigger picture to old characters.

[Marchwarden]

I think that much of the umbrage stems from whether the Seeker appearance is interpreted by the reader as an in-joke meant to appeal to older players or as a "jab" meant to snub them.

 

Now, I love Seeker dearly (despite the infuriating design flaws in the BBB edition), but I wasn't offended by seeing him getting pounded one more time. It's not as if he'd traditionally appeared posing triumphantly on a dozen covers in the old days, and that this illo was attempting to convey that "his time is now over; you must all support the new team". It just wouldn't be classic Seeker if he weren't drawn getting his butt kicked. This isn't "mocking the old team"; it's consistent portrayal, and a salute to those of us hoary and ancient enough to get the reference.

 

Well, I suppose you could invert the punchline: show a cover with only Seeker left standing. Sort of a "retirement bonus".

[Tclynch]

As far as the Seeker thing goes, I took at as a kind of "tip of the hat" to what have gone before. Only the oldtimers are going to "get it" anyway, so what harm is thier, really?

[Hermit]

I got it!

 

I just got both Millennium City and CKC in the mail today, and am hungrily devouring the former first. So far, so great