Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

[Metaphysician]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

I think the big lack of reading comprehension falls at your feet in this case. SleepyDrug pretty clearly said that Destroyer -- not Doom -- had Thanos's power level.

 

And I'm saying that *Destroyer* isn't at Thanos' power level either. He's not even close.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

When you look at the power levels of the Champions Universe "Thanos-type" characters such as "The Dragon Incarnate" you see a villain with 24d6 attack in a vpp' date=' 6 speed, 30 defense, 110 stun you see a very tough character. The Dragon Bound has more attack but less speed and no defense. Compare that to Dr. Destroyer with his 30d6, 8 speed, 40 defense, damage reduction, and 100 stun. Which one is the real "Thanos-type" threat? [/quote']

 

Neither.

 

Dr Destroyer is a scientific genius in a suit of powered armor that can't even ignore a nuke.

 

The Dragon is a completely non-physical entity for whom physical combat is utterly meaningless; hence the relatively low stats.

 

Edit: or to put it another way- Dr Destroyer is nearly a Thanos level threat in the same way that Dr Octopus is more nearly a Galactus level threat than Turk.

[OddHat]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

*sigh*

 

No, he does *not* have the Desolid cheese, because he's equally invulnerable to everything else.

 

So maybe the GM is hand-waving it? Many levels in DCV with completely invisible power effects, plus Desolidification with Invisible power Effects and a trigger (maybe in a MP to save points), and a nice VPP for offensive powers so the Affects Solid World can be used at need ... and there's also EDM and a bunch of transdimensional powers, including full spectrum Images; that's quite cheap.

 

Actually I partially agree with your point; however, you can simulate an amazing number of "cosmic" effect within the rules even at quite low point totals; I do not agree that this automatically constitutes "cheese", though it is unbalancing if not under the GM's control.

[Kristopher]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

Actually, yours and SleepyDrug's reading comprehension is what rolled an 18 in this case.

 

Metaphysician is saying that neither Doctor Destroyer nor Doom have Thanos' power level.

 

Yeah. I caught that.

 

So what?

[Kristopher]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

And I'm saying that *Destroyer* isn't at Thanos' power level either. He's not even close.

 

Given the stats we have for him, he certainly fulfils the same role in the CU that a Thanos or Darkseid would. He can mortally wound most of the characters in one or two blows, survive the nastiest attacks they can hope to throw at him, and has resources beyond those of anyone else on earth (not to mention beyond any logical analysis...but that's another gripe).

 

As for the "nuke at his feet" example...sounds like a moment of hackitis.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

Given the stats we have for him, he certainly fulfils the same role in the CU that a Thanos or Darkseid would. He can mortally wound most of the characters in one or two blows, survive the nastiest attacks they can hope to throw at him, and has resources beyond those of anyone else on earth (not to mention beyond any logical analysis...but that's another gripe).

THATS BECAUSE THE LISTED CHARACTERS ARE THEMSELVES EXCESSIVELY LOW LEVEL!!

 

*sigh*

 

If you pitted Dr Doom versus the X-Men at the beginning of their career, plus the beginning New Warriors, plus a mixed street level squad, he would effortlessly trash them, too.

 

That is the nearest equivalent to any fight between Dr Destroyer and 95% of the published heroes.

 

As for the "nuke at his feet" example...sounds like a moment of hackitis.

 

His battle with Drax blew up the planet they were on in his very first appearance. He's duked it out with Odin. He's travelled through dimensions that completely warp the laws of reality, and survived being so warped.

 

In damn near every appearance he's had, he's at a level that makes nukes look insignificant.

[Jhamin]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

OK guys, I think we are talking past each other here.

 

If I am understanding Metaphysician right, he is saying that according to benchmarks like surviving a nuke or cracking a planet (which Thanos can and Dr. D can't) there is a clear disparity in power level.

 

Others (including me) are arguing that according to benchmarks like killing poweful heroes in only 1-3 shots and duking it out with cosmic entities, both are able to do it in their respective universes and occupy similar places in the "pecking order" of their respective continuities.

 

Different campaigns (and comic book worlds) work under different rules with different values. In some, Thor does 25D6 and Ripper is a whuss next to him. In others they can have a good fight because their concepts involve them both being incredibly strong combat machines of the highest magnitude.

In some campaigns Nukes kill anything, in others they are thrown around liberally to show how uber everyone is.

 

Despite what anyone may think, both are equally valid approaches.

 

Arguing that a character from one world is or is not equivalent to one from another is pointless as assumptions differ between those worlds (and over time within those worlds), often in subtle ways.

 

I was origionally stating that Thanos and Dr. Destroyer had alot in common because they fill similar roles in the power pecking order, not because I thought that had the same DCV and active point values.

[Kristopher]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

THATS BECAUSE THE LISTED CHARACTERS ARE THEMSELVES EXCESSIVELY LOW LEVEL!!

 

*sigh*

 

If you pitted Dr Doom versus the X-Men at the beginning of their career, plus the beginning New Warriors, plus a mixed street level squad, he would effortlessly trash them, too.

 

That is the nearest equivalent to any fight between Dr Destroyer and 95% of the published heroes.

 

In other words, the scale in the CU is all messed up.

[jackalope]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

Others (including me) are arguing that according to benchmarks like killing poweful heroes in only 1-3 shots and duking it out with cosmic entities' date=' both are able to do it in their respective universes and occupy similar places in the "pecking order" of their respective continuities.[/quote']

 

Um. No, not even.

 

Doctor Doom and Doctor Destroyer occupy similar places in the "pecking order" of their respective continuities. Doctor Destroyer and Thanos have, like, next to nothing in common. Thanos is several orders of magnitude more powerful than Destroyer. Thanos is Galactus power-scale. Characters at Thanos's level in the "pecking order" eat characters like Destroyer for breakfast. Istvatha V'han lives in the same neighborhood as Thanos, but even she would be scared of him. No, really, Thanos is on the power level that villains like Destroyer offer to join forces with the heroes to defeat them.

 

Destroyer is a normal human with fantastic science skills in power armor bent on world domination. That's freaking Doctor Doom! He's even got the twisted moral compass that makes him seem almost sympathetic at times, like you almost believe that he really does have the best intentions for the world after he conquers it - the same moral sense that allows him to team up with heroes against a threat like V'han. Give Destroyer his own country (such as I have in my campaign, the small African nation of Mwangamiziland (Swahili, meaning "Destroyerland")), and he is Doctor Doom.

 

Though, I would think the name alone would be a dead giveaway.

[Kristopher]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

Um. No, not even.

 

Doctor Doom and Doctor Destroyer occupy similar places in the "pecking order" of their respective continuities. Doctor Destroyer and Thanos have, like, next to nothing in common. Thanos is several orders of magnitude more powerful than Destroyer. Thanos is Galactus power-scale. Characters at Thanos's level in the "pecking order" eat characters like Destroyer for breakfast. Istvatha V'han lives in the same neighborhood as Thanos, but even she would be scared of him. No, really, Thanos is on the power level that villains like Destroyer offer to join forces with the heroes to defeat them.

 

Destroyer is a normal human with fantastic science skills in power armor bent on world domination. That's freaking Doctor Doom! He's even got the twisted moral compass that makes him seem almost sympathetic at times, like you almost believe that he really does have the best intentions for the world after he conquers it - the same moral sense that allows him to team up with heroes against a threat like V'han. Give Destroyer his own country (such as I have in my campaign, the small African nation of Mwangamiziland (Swahili, meaning "Destroyerland")), and he is Doctor Doom.

 

Though, I would think the name alone would be a dead giveaway.

 

Dr D is supposed to be the Doom-analogue , I suppose, just based on the name.

 

But, IMO, he's not on the right spot on the scale to occupy that role in the CU. He's overpowered. As was mentioned, he can kill most characters easily and casually.

 

He also doesn't occupy the same space morally. Given the choice between Dr Destroyer and Istvatha V'han, I'd side with Isvatha every single time. Destroyer is a monster.

[jackalope]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

But' date=' IMO, he's not on the right spot on the scale to occupy that role in the CU. He's overpowered. As was mentioned, he can kill most characters easily and casually.[/quote']

 

So could Doom, if it weren't for that pesky Comics Code Authority holding him back all those years. If Doom appears weaker than Destroyer, it is because the GM's over at Marvel fudge die rolls in favor of the players all the time.

 

He also doesn't occupy the same space morally. Given the choice between Dr Destroyer and Istvatha V'han, I'd side with Isvatha every single time. Destroyer is a monster.

 

What, and Doom isn't?

[assault]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

As far as Doom goes: he seems to have experienced significant escalation in power levels over the years.

 

In his first appearance one of his robots was fairly offhandedly shredded by the FF, while he himself ran (flew) away rather than fight. And at that point there was no particularly good reason to consider the FF as being especially powerful.

 

In fact, Doom's relative lack of power was supported by his desire to find artifacts that would make him more powerful!

 

Of course he had a time machine and other mastermind toys, but his _personal_ power level didn't seem that over the top.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

As far as Doom goes: he seems to have experienced significant escalation in power levels over the years.

 

In his first appearance one of his robots was fairly offhandedly shredded by the FF, while he himself ran (flew) away rather than fight. And at that point there was no particularly good reason to consider the FF as being especially powerful.

 

In fact, Doom's relative lack of power was supported by his desire to find artifacts that would make him more powerful!

 

Of course he had a time machine and other mastermind toys, but his _personal_ power level didn't seem that over the top.

How recently are you talking about with regards to Doom's power escalation?

 

Because I remember reading the original Infinite Gauntlet series and Doom had the Silver Surfer very scared when Doom caught SS at a weakened moment. This would be around 1990 for the this series. The way many people talk about the Silver Surfer, making him out to be akin to a space god in power, this puts Doom's personal powers at quite a high level of lethality if SS was as scared as the artist drew him.

 

I think another thing people are ignoring with regards to Doom is that while, yes, Doom is technologically weaker than Destroyer (energy blasts, suit driven attack powers, etc...) Doom more than makes up for it IMO in the arcane realm and I could easily see Doom smiting Destroyer with a magical attack that Destroyer's Suit would have no defense against.

 

TB

[assault]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

How recently are you talking about with regards to Doom's power escalation?

 

July 1962.

 

I haven't been reading the FF since the 80s. I've got into Ultimate FF recently, though. It's not the original stuff, but it's not horrible either.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

July 1962.

 

I haven't been reading the FF since the 80s. I've got into Ultimate FF recently, though. It's not the original stuff, but it's not horrible either.

I have to say I like UFF quite a lot. I've got the entire series so far. I'm not sure if I like what they've done with Doom (back story AND powers) but the rest of it is quite nice.

 

But, back to Doom. What were Doom's Arcane powers like back then?

 

Because as of now, from what I've read (please, if someone can elaborate further or give an opposing view I welcome their input) Doom could easily challenge Dr. Strange in a few more years of study.

 

TB

[assault]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

But, back to Doom. What were Doom's Arcane powers like back then?

 

I'm not sure, but the gems he was trying to get hold of in his first appearance were magical, and would have made him really tough. He had been able to find out that they existed and presumably was a good enough wizard to be able to use them, if anything beyond having them in his possession was necessary. This doesn't necessarily imply very much.

 

On the other hand, he had managed to build a time machine. He was certainly no slouch as a scientist.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

OK guys, I think we are talking past each other here.

 

If I am understanding Metaphysician right, he is saying that according to benchmarks like surviving a nuke or cracking a planet (which Thanos can and Dr. D can't) there is a clear disparity in power level.

 

Others (including me) are arguing that according to benchmarks like killing poweful heroes in only 1-3 shots and duking it out with cosmic entities, both are able to do it in their respective universes and occupy similar places in the "pecking order" of their respective continuities.

 

Different campaigns (and comic book worlds) work under different rules with different values. In some, Thor does 25D6 and Ripper is a whuss next to him. In others they can have a good fight because their concepts involve them both being incredibly strong combat machines of the highest magnitude.

In some campaigns Nukes kill anything, in others they are thrown around liberally to show how uber everyone is.

 

Despite what anyone may think, both are equally valid approaches.

The problem here is that the comparison is still squicky. Thanos fills a different role in the Marvel U ( cosmic servant of even more cosmic powers ) than Dr Destroyer ( who is, at heart, basically 'just' a world conqueror ).

 

Arguing that a character from one world is or is not equivalent to one from another is pointless as assumptions differ between those worlds (and over time within those worlds), often in subtle ways.

 

I was origionally stating that Thanos and Dr. Destroyer had alot in common because they fill similar roles in the power pecking order, not because I thought that had the same DCV and active point values.

 

Except that Dr Destroyer is *not* in the same place in the pecking order. Tyrannon outpowers him considerably, as does Istvatha.

 

This is the trouble that happens when people use sliding, as opposed to absolute, reference scales.

[MitchellS]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

Because one power level is inaccurate.

 

If you wanna say "Dr Destroyer is the biggest villain in my setting," then thats perfectly accurate and fine.

 

When you say "Dr Destroyer fills the Thanos role in my setting," you are setting up a comparison that can be factually tested. . . and disproven.

Is there any Thanos-like character in the Champions Universe who is more powerful than Dr. Destroyer? We now have CU write-ups in hand for the toughest of the tough ranging from Skarn, the Dragon, and Tyrannon, to demon/devil princes, to aztec gods, to Kings of Edom. Dr. Destroyer is as tough or tougher than all of them. In the CU Dr. Destroyer fits the "cosmic entity" power levels niche even though he does not fit the archetype. That's all anyone here is saying.

 

Your games might play at an escalted power level, and that's fine, but the fact that you need to make your cosmic entities 40d6, 60 def, 10 speed in order for them to fight your team of 20d6+, 40 def, 8 speed heroes does not mean that is the norm for the Champions Universe. That is just what level you enjoy playing at.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

In other words' date=' the scale in the CU is all messed up.[/quote']

 

Bingo.

 

Alot of the complaints about "overblown" villains in the CU ultimately derive from the assumption that heroes will be at or around 350 points.

 

Whereas alot of the villain archetypes tapped for the major villains are archetypes that all but assume that the heroes opposing them *won't* be beginning level.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

Um. No, not even.

 

Doctor Doom and Doctor Destroyer occupy similar places in the "pecking order" of their respective continuities. Doctor Destroyer and Thanos have, like, next to nothing in common. Thanos is several orders of magnitude more powerful than Destroyer. Thanos is Galactus power-scale. Characters at Thanos's level in the "pecking order" eat characters like Destroyer for breakfast. Istvatha V'han lives in the same neighborhood as Thanos, but even she would be scared of him. No, really, Thanos is on the power level that villains like Destroyer offer to join forces with the heroes to defeat them.

 

Destroyer is a normal human with fantastic science skills in power armor bent on world domination. That's freaking Doctor Doom! He's even got the twisted moral compass that makes him seem almost sympathetic at times, like you almost believe that he really does have the best intentions for the world after he conquers it - the same moral sense that allows him to team up with heroes against a threat like V'han. Give Destroyer his own country (such as I have in my campaign, the small African nation of Mwangamiziland (Swahili, meaning "Destroyerland")), and he is Doctor Doom.

 

Though, I would think the name alone would be a dead giveaway.

 

Actually, I disagree on him bearing moral simularities to Doom. Destroyer has no discernable redeeming values. I would consider V'Han to be the lesser evil than him, by a long shot.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

Dr D is supposed to be the Doom-analogue , I suppose, just based on the name.

 

But, IMO, he's not on the right spot on the scale to occupy that role in the CU. He's overpowered. As was mentioned, he can kill most characters easily and casually.

 

He also doesn't occupy the same space morally. Given the choice between Dr Destroyer and Istvatha V'han, I'd side with Isvatha every single time. Destroyer is a monster.

 

Doom can kill 350 point equivalents easy, too.

 

The reason he does not regularly kill most of his opponents is that *he does not regularly fight 350 point heroes.*

[MitchellS]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

Um. No, not even.

 

Doctor Doom and Doctor Destroyer occupy similar places in the "pecking order" of their respective continuities. Doctor Destroyer and Thanos have, like, next to nothing in common. Thanos is several orders of magnitude more powerful than Destroyer. Thanos is Galactus power-scale. Characters at Thanos's level in the "pecking order" eat characters like Destroyer for breakfast. Istvatha V'han lives in the same neighborhood as Thanos, but even she would be scared of him. No, really, Thanos is on the power level that villains like Destroyer offer to join forces with the heroes to defeat them.

Within the CU there is no character tougher than Dr. Destroyer, and that includes the Thanos-like ones.

[Eosin]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

I want to pipe up and say "My daddy is tougher than your daddy!"

 

I must be sorta fuzzy on Thanos - judging by his origin and opponents (in the 80's before the whole Infinty Game) he was a Silver Surfer level character. A whackin bad monkey but still in the same league with Walter Simonson's Thor.

 

I think Destroyer...(Yeap, Destroyer goota make sure I don't mix those two up) is meant a Doom derivation but as written is a 100% bad monkey....upto the level of the World Breakers - he just ain't bought that slot in his MPP yet.

 

Everyones scales, sliding or absolute are gonna have variances in them, if for no other reason than some dork wrote someone exploding nuclear bombs at their feet to clear riff raff or Thor whacking one of the Celestials or Hulk holding up a mountain range or the Flash Force or what ever whacked-on-scooby-snack my hero is tougher than your hero twinky story that provides someone-somewhere PROOF that X is more powerful than Y.

 

Now Darksied - he is a world cracker. Omega-Beams away!

 

 

Now, on to the topic of this topic.....

 

I would like to see a good compilation of who is equitable to who from other universes.

 

Spiderman in Champions is nigh unstoppable IMO and I would like to see his clone (Mongoose maybe?).

 

Here is who I think is who -

 

Harbinger = Batman with a gun only meaner.

Nighthawk = Nightwind

Mechanon = Ultron but weaker.

Minutmen = Sentinals

PRIMUS = Shield

Golden Avenger = Cap with USAgents morality

VIPER = Hydra

Vipra = Superman clone but evil and female.

 

Geez, I guess I should buy more Supers stuff cause that is all that I can think of.

[Pegasus]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

As far as Doom goes: he seems to have experienced significant escalation in power levels over the years.

 

In his first appearance one of his robots was fairly offhandedly shredded by the FF, while he himself ran (flew) away rather than fight. And at that point there was no particularly good reason to consider the FF as being especially powerful...

 

To be fair, All characters evolve and escalate. The FF have escalated in power as well. At the time of Doom's first appearance, Ben could lift around 5-10 tons, Johnny could only flame on for a couple minutes before exhausting his flame, Sue had no force fields, and Reed's inventions weren't dimension spanning yet. Compare early Thor, Iron Man, Cyclops, Iceman, etc. (And we haven't even touched Superman or Batman!) Doom's evolution is hardly unique or unwarranted.

[jackalope]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

Actually' date=' I disagree on him bearing moral simularities to Doom. Destroyer has no discernable redeeming values. I would consider V'Han to be the lesser evil than him, by a long shot.[/quote']

 

To be honest, I don't know where people are getting that from. I mean, Destroyer is however a GM runs him, and his write-up doesn't suggest he is signifigantly more evil than Doom. Doom is a vicious and ruthless tyrant who kills without compunction, brutalizes his people, abuses children (anyone remember Kristoff, Doom's cloned son, and the sheer hell Doom put him through?), etc. In Destroyer's write-up it mentions that he enjoys playing mind-games with his foes, as does Doom.

 

What is it that makes Destroyer so much worse than Doom, other than the lack of Comics Code Authority (which, btw, is the only reason Doom doesn't have a highly visible death count)?

 

And while V'Han may be less evil than Destroyer, I don't see what that has to do with the Destroyer/Doom comparison, unless you wish to argue than Doom is less evil than V'han, which he is not.