Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

[MitchellS]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

But it is also a fact that most Champions games are TEAM focused. How many campaigns are the equivalent of a solo title? Most Champions campaigns are the equivalent of an Avengers/Defenders/Alpha Flight/JLA/JSA style comic book.

 

And in those books the hero's fight either world shaking villains (such as Mechanon, Dr Destroyer, Menton, Gravitar, or the Warlord) or teams (such as EuroStar, PSI, or the Ultimates) or organizations (such as Viper or Demon).

 

Most of the CU's "solo villains" are a match for only one or two heroes at a time; so they get cast in the role of impromptu teams.

 

What the CU seems to lack is second tier criminal masterminds equivalent to the Marvel Universe's Baron Zemo, Imus Champion, Egghead, Mad Thinker, or Mystique

 

The type of villains who hire various villains to flesh out their teams. Of the potential lower tier masterminds in CKC most lack this aspect: Black Harlequin, Black Paladin, Anubis, Holocast all are solo operators.

 

We have no Dr Octopus or Beetle types that hire other solo villains to be thier gang or team.

I agree. There do need to be more "Minor-Master Villains." Right off the top of my head I can only think of Holocaust (I disagree with you about him), Dark Seraph (who already has his own team), Interface, and Zorran who can readily fit that bill. I would put Mechanon in this group as well, though he does not seem to have any real interest in using other villains beneath him. The campaign needs those Minor-Masters so they can work up to the true world-shakers.

 

As far a solo villains, I think half of CKC is devoted to villains at 400 points or less. Any of them are a decent match-up for starting characters, one one one.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

I agree. There do need to be more "Minor-Master Villains." Right off the top of my head I can only think of Holocaust (I disagree with you about him), Dark Seraph (who already has his own team), Interface, and Zorran who can readily fit that bill. I would put Mechanon in this group as well, though he does not seem to have any real interest in using other villains beneath him. The campaign needs those Minor-Masters so they can work up to the true world-shakers.

 

As far a solo villains, I think half of CKC is devoted to villains at 400 points or less. Any of them are a decent match-up for starting characters, one one one.

 

Mechanon wouldn't form a team.

Interface -- who is this?

 

Dark Seraph, Zorran, and Holocaust are a good start. So might Photon or Tesseract come to think of it.

[MitchellS]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

Mechanon wouldn't form a team.

Interface -- who is this?

 

Dark Seraph, Zorran, and Holocaust are a good start. So might Photon or Tesseract come to think of it.

Interface is a Minor-Master villain introduced in Champions: Battlegrounds.

 

I agree with you about Mechanon, but then Ultron was the "secret master" of the Masters of Evil at one time too, so you never know what might go through a machine mind when it comes to eliminating superheroes.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

I agree. There do need to be more "Minor-Master Villains." Right off the top of my head I can only think of Holocaust (I disagree with you about him)' date=' Dark Seraph (who already has his own team), Interface, and Zorran who can readily fit that bill. [/quote']

 

Slug, perhaps. King Cobra, though like Dark Seraph he has underlings of his own. Anubis could probably be adapted to the role easily enough.

 

I'm converting Neutron and Sunburst for that exact purpose as well.

[MitchellS]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

Slug, perhaps. King Cobra, though like Dark Seraph he has underlings of his own. Anubis could probably be adapted to the role easily enough.

 

I'm converting Neutron and Sunburst for that exact purpose as well.

I think Slug would surround himself with transformed "worms" rather than supervillains. Anubis might be a good choice. I could see a whole Egyptian theme building there with Scarab, Ibis, and Ankh (made up villains) joining his ranks.

 

I never cared for Neutron but only because he seemed to surround himself with idiots. Sunburst would be a good choice as well. My guess is he'd be around Gigaton's power level. Beamline might make an interesting choice as well, or Borealis as a northern threat.

[jackalope]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

I hear the editors may try to shake things up by having one of them threaten to *gasp* leave the Fantastic Four.

 

Actually, they went a step further than that.

 

The horde of alien survivors of Galactus (who have been around for years), just recently came to earth, with plans to hurl all of Manhattan into the sun (I love FF villains, they're always so creative), to eliminate one superhero (tossing the city into the sun was faster and easier than searching the city apparently) who has the power to see through the cloaking devices that the survivor's have placed on sentient worlds around the galaxy. See, Galactus is on his way to make that super his new herald, so that he can find all the planets the survivors have cloaked.

 

That super? Why, Sue Storm, the Invisible Woman, of course. She had massive levels of Dispel Invisibility, don'tchaknow? Anyways, Reed tricks the aliens into thinking he has removed Sue's powers, when what he's actually done is switched her powers with Johnny's. So now Sue is the Human Torch, and Johnny is the Invisible Man.

 

All is well and good, except that it turns out Galactus was much closer to Earth than Reed suspected, and at the end of #519 he shows up, zaps Johnny, and turns him into a herald (with a very, very cool Kirby-inspired costume). The last shot is Johnny going "Oh crud!" as he realizes what has just happened to him.

 

Talk about a shake-up! Johnny is now a herald, Sue is now the Human Torch, and the Four are down to Three!

 

Personally, I really hope this isn't just a temporary thing, I'd love to see Big G get a new herald, and I don't like Johnny much as he is (never have, think he's a whiny doof). Heraldization can only be an improvement! And Sue as the Human Torch is a cool touch.

 

And to all the Wolverine nay-sayers: Pthhhpppttbbbttt!!!! I hate his fan-boys as much as the next guy, but he is a cool character in the hands of right writer. Though I'm personally glad Joss Whedon is down-playing him in the new Astonishing series.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

Beamline might make an interesting choice as well' date=' or Borealis as a northern threat.[/quote']

 

Profesor Muerte could be resurrected. Time Master could be brought back..perhaps as an evil, parallel timeline version of Captain Chronos.

 

Oh, and Frizbe, of course.

[Kristopher]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

But it is also a fact that most Champions games are TEAM focused. How many campaigns are the equivalent of a solo title? Most Champions campaigns are the equivalent of an Avengers/Defenders/Alpha Flight/JLA/JSA style comic book.

 

And in those books the hero's fight either world shaking villains (such as Mechanon, Dr Destroyer, Menton, Gravitar, or the Warlord) or teams (such as EuroStar, PSI, or the Ultimates) or organizations (such as Viper or Demon).

 

Most of the CU's "solo villains" are a match for only one or two heroes at a time; so they get cast in the role of impromptu teams.

 

What the CU seems to lack is second tier criminal masterminds equivalent to the Marvel Universe's Baron Zemo, Imus Champion, Egghead, Mad Thinker, or Mystique

 

The type of villains who hire various villains to flesh out their teams. Of the potential lower tier masterminds in CKC most lack this aspect: Black Harlequin, Black Paladin, Anubis, Holocast all are solo operators.

 

We have no Dr Octopus or Beetle types that hire other solo villains to be thier gang or team.

 

Something that would give us a much better sense of scale for the CU would be a published collection of the established superheroes. Not the underpowered-for-their-apparent-role Champions, but all the heroes and teams mention in Champions Universe and other books who haven't had their stats and backgrounds published. DoJ needs to show us the heroes who have stood toe-to-toe with the various threats we've seen so richly detailed so far. Give us an understanding of the other side of the scale. Show us how they were able to deal with some of the massively bloated villains we've been shown so far.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

Something that would give us a much better sense of scale for the CU would be a published collection of the established superheroes. Not the underpowered-for-their-apparent-role Champions' date=' but all the heroes and teams mention in Champions Universe and other books who haven't had their stats and backgrounds published. DoJ needs to show us the heroes who have stood toe-to-toe with the various threats we've seen so richly detailed so far. Give us an understanding of the other side of the scale. Show us how they were able to deal with some of the massively bloated villains we've been shown so far.[/quote']

 

I agree. The "standard" power level discussed in Champions, CU, and FREd does *not* match the write-ups in CKC and other villain books. I think the Champions should in actuality be around 500 points. With other heroes betweeen 300 (for rookies) to 600. Of course, in my universe, I have altered the Champions and use Eitherio's Project XIII has a hero team.

 

But i'm focused on villain roles.

 

Master Villains -- World Shakers

Comic Eq: Red Skull, Dr Doom, Magneto, Graviton, Mandarin, Nefaria

C U: Dr Destroyer, Mechanon, Istvahan V'han, Gravitar, Warlord, Teleios

 

Master Villains -- City Threats

Comic Eq: Baron Zemo, Mystique, Dr Octopus, Crimson Cowl

C U: Zorran, Anubis, Holocaust

C U (with teams): Binder, Fiacho, Psimon

 

The question here is, partially -- who do all of these solo villains "for hire" get employed by? the mob?

 

Viper, PSI, Destroyer, Binder, Fiacho, Dark Seraph...all have supers on the payroll already. Where are the masterminds and crimelords that need to hire impromptu teams of villains?

[humantorch101]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

Something that would give us a much better sense of scale for the CU would be a published collection of the established superheroes. Not the underpowered-for-their-apparent-role Champions' date=' but all the heroes and teams mention in Champions Universe and other books who haven't had their stats and backgrounds published. DoJ needs to show us the heroes who have stood toe-to-toe with the various threats we've seen so richly detailed so far. Give us an understanding of the other side of the scale. Show us how they were able to deal with some of the massively bloated villains we've been shown so far.[/quote']

 

Yep, agreed this seems to be called for again and again by various posters here but we always get the answer "hero books dont sell"

I disagree, if hero characters were always given villain options everyone would be happy.

I want to point out however we need to see the iconic experianced heroes of the CU not just350-450 point characters.

 

We need to see the Spiderman, Superman, Captain America, Batman, Green Lantern, Thor, Iron Man etc. not just in raw power but in experiance too.

 

Direct question for DOJ are we ever gonna see these type of heroic characters published?

 

rgds

Torch

[MitchellS]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

I have no problem with the villain's power levels in the Champions Universe, outside of Dr. Destroyer and Takofanes. I understand the villains are generally going to be outnumbered somewhere between 2 - 6 to 1. They need to be designed to withstand teams of 2 to 6 characters. As I said above, about half of the villains in the Champions Universe are built on 400 points or less and those are all decent one-to-one opponents for the 350 point characters.

 

My own list of villains would be as follows:

 

Imperial Villains: Dr. Destroyer, Istvantha, Skarn, Takofanes, Tyrannon

 

Master Villains: Gravitar, Mechanon, Menton, Teleios, Viperia, Warlord

 

Minor-Master Villains: Black Paladin, Holocaust, Interface, Stingray, Zorran

 

Crime Lords: Kevin Poe, Franklin Stone, The Purple Gang, Jade Phoenix

[MitchellS]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

Direct question for DOJ are we ever gonna see these type of heroic characters published?

I believe Darren said it might make the 2006 schedule.

[humantorch101]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

I believe Darren said it might make the 2006 schedule.

 

Really? cool. Was that recently?

 

rgds

Torch

[MitchellS]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

It was in one of the other threads. I don't remember where. I was just reading older threads one day where they were talking about superheroes. Darren said it was being considered for the 2006 schedule. You might want to do a search for Sentinels. That might help you find it if you're interested.

[Vorsch]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

Dr D is nothing like dr doom, doom wins by planning and special weapons vs weaknesses, power wise hes not in Iron mans league. Dr Destroyers wins on sheer power in all areas, attacks skills spd dex etc, his armour is more on the level of Green lanturn.

 

I mean 30d6 attacks, 48 with gadget pool and a ocv of 15 spd 8 ish....please

[SleepyDrug]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

I have no problem with the villain's power levels in the Champions Universe, outside of Dr. Destroyer and Takofanes. I understand the villains are generally going to be outnumbered somewhere between 2 - 6 to 1. They need to be designed to withstand teams of 2 to 6 characters. As I said above, about half of the villains in the Champions Universe are built on 400 points or less and those are all decent one-to-one opponents for the 350 point characters.

 

My own list of villains would be as follows:

 

Imperial Villains: Dr. Destroyer, Istvantha, Skarn, Takofanes, Tyrannon

 

Master Villains: Gravitar, Mechanon, Menton, Teleios, Viperia, Warlord

 

Minor-Master Villains: Black Paladin, Holocaust, Interface, Stingray, Zorran

 

Crime Lords: Kevin Poe, Franklin Stone, The Purple Gang, Jade Phoenix

 

I like your division. Who are Poe, Jade Phoenix, and the Purple Gang? Stone I know is in CU. Where are the rest from?

[SleepyDrug]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

Dr D is nothing like dr doom, doom wins by planning and special weapons vs weaknesses, power wise hes not in Iron mans league. Dr Destroyers wins on sheer power in all areas, attacks skills spd dex etc, his armour is more on the level of Green lanturn.

 

I mean 30d6 attacks, 48 with gadget pool and a ocv of 15 spd 8 ish....please

 

Steve Long has said that Dr Destroyer is the Champions Universe version of Dr Doom.

[Vorsch]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

Well that makes it so then dosent it.

 

Didnt Know doom had the highest damage of any marvel character, with the dex and spd of spiderman.

 

The similarities are now apparent to me.

[Haerandir]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

I like your division. Who are Poe' date=' Jade Phoenix, and the Purple Gang? Stone I know is in CU. Where are the rest from?[/quote']

 

They're from the Millenium City sourcebook.

[Kristopher]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

It's just a matter of intent vs results. DoJ probably did intend Destroyer to be the CU's Doom -- "Doctor", power armor, would-be world tyrant, etc.

 

The room for arguement is in whether one thinks the results worked out as planned. Doctor Destroyer strikes me as much more of a monster -- morally, and in combat -- than Doom. (Although I freely admit to not being an expert on Dr Doom.)

[Jhamin]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

This is why I bring up the Dr Destroyer = Darkseid or Thanos arguments.

 

Dr. Destroyer attacks, defences, powers and skills make him one of the 4 or 5 most personally powerful beings we have seen in the modern Champions Universe. The others are space gods and immortal magic lords. It takes an alliance of dozens of heroes to fight him, and every time he does enter combat Heros start dying.

 

If they existed in the Champs U he would totally go after the Cosmic Cube, Infinity Gauntlet, or Anti-Life equation.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

This is why I bring up the Dr Destroyer = Darkseid or Thanos arguments.

 

Dr. Destroyer attacks, defences, powers and skills make him one of the 4 or 5 most personally powerful beings we have seen in the modern Champions Universe. The others are space gods and immortal magic lords. It takes an alliance of dozens of heroes to fight him, and every time he does enter combat Heros start dying.

 

If they existed in the Champs U he would totally go after the Cosmic Cube, Infinity Gauntlet, or Anti-Life equation.

 

True....but then Doom did go after the Infinity Gauntlet and the Cosmic Cube at times; as well as the Silver Surfer's power cosmic, the Beyonder's power, and augmented magical power.

 

In the end, Destroyer is probably a combo of Doom & Thanos. He has Doom's power set and motives (sans the redeemable stuff) with Thanos' power levels. Or...Destroyer is Doom with much more power and less morals.

[Boll Weevil]

Mea culpa too

 

I'll agree the Champions Universe has many Marvel analogs. In my own games I have seen the same parallels. I try to make my own characters as unique as possible but when they are fleshed out the invariably resemble something from Marvel. The players I have gamed with do the same. I've lost count of the many Wolverine clones who have come to play at my table. I know many on these boards, especially those who are more hardcore comicbook fans than I, are weary of the mutant phenomenon (adolescent mutant emergence, hysteria etc). I do it too. Always have. I for one like gaming in a mutant world.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: Mea culpa too

 

I'll agree the Champions Universe has many Marvel analogs. In my own games I have seen the same parallels. I try to make my own characters as unique as possible but when they are fleshed out the invariably resemble something from Marvel. The players I have gamed with do the same. I've lost count of the many Wolverine clones who have come to play at my table. I know many on these boards' date=' especially those who are more hardcore comicbook fans than I, are weary of the mutant phenomenon (adolescent mutant emergence, hysteria etc). I do it too. Always have. I for one like gaming in a mutant world.[/quote']

 

My worlds are usually more along the lines of an Avengers or JLA comic. I like the anti-mutant elements, but not as a game focus.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

Dr D is nothing like dr doom, doom wins by planning and special weapons vs weaknesses, power wise hes not in Iron mans league. Dr Destroyers wins on sheer power in all areas, attacks skills spd dex etc, his armour is more on the level of Green lanturn.

 

I mean 30d6 attacks, 48 with gadget pool and a ocv of 15 spd 8 ish....please

 

Actually, while Dr Destroyer might have more raw firepower than Doom usually carries, yes, Doom is in IM's league or beyond. He's survived orbital reentry in the suit.

 

If anything, his armor is even more powerful than Destroyer's, trading out raw internal firepower for greater defensive ability and flexibility.