Metaphysician Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? really? I can't say I was exactly paying attention at the time I head that. Er, what IS the Mangaverse? Marvel's ill-advised attempt to cash in on the manga craze by "reinverting" various marvel classics in the manga style. From what little I've seen, it sucked massively. In any case, *definitely* not canon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffreyWKramer Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Dr D and Takofanes have Life Support. Dr D, in particular, also has space resources. If the Earth disappeared from under them, it would be inconvenient, but hardly fatal. Dr. D's biggest immediate concern, should the earth blow up while he is on his orbital base, will be "Where do I go conquer now?" Then he starts scanning for feasible alternate Earths which have so far escaped the notice of V'han and other extradimensional sorts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Nope, Tak has 120 Pre without even using his pool. Up to 210 if he does. MV has only a 90 Pre, so Tak should have +21 or +84 over and above what MV gets on average. Or he could just toss some nastiness their way, like a 20d6 Explosion, or a 20d6 0 END Mind Control, with one of his scepter attacks thrown in for good measure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? +8 PSLs to the head (in worlds that use hit locations) is cheese no matter how you slice it. 12 pts for an automatic 5 Stun Multiple or 2X damage on normal attacks is obscene. Well, I could see it in a ( high end ) superheroic game, but only for some character concepts, mostly street-level types with limited offensive firepower. *Maybe* you could put it on a Cyclops type dedicated energy blaster, but then the limiting factor is the characters defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Yet, to paraphrase Ben in the FF/X-Men limited series, the big brain of Reed Richards forgot to take into account something as simple as radiation shielding when he built his rocket to the moon. True. However, its kind of been a point of the characters that sometimes Reed misses the obvious ( which Ben is the one to notice typically, like the way to get the Silver Surfer off Earth ). Edit - I need to add that also nothing in my orriginal statement discounts Reed being a better scientist, but that is based more on Doom's ego limiting him. A good scientist does not always assume they are correct. A good scientist will listen to the ideas of others, and not let their own preconceptions blind them. The important thing, though, is that whichever was actually the better scientist in the beginning, they were still peers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Illusions = no LOS (wait... he has additional targeting sense, doesn't he... what are they?) = no mind control. Oh, and as I said earlier... it is impossible to beat Takofanes, played with suitable breaking of his Power Pool, with ANY heroes. Even 1000pt ones. THe best result possible is mutual annihilation. Becaus, y'know, I read the DD vs Takofanes thread. Define "breaking a VPP". Preferably as something other than "Actually using all the active points in it intelligently." As for senses, he's got Detect Physical Objects, Magic, and Souls 15-, Ranged, Analyze, Discriminatory, Sense, Targetting. No sense group, too. He also has a potent Danger Sense, and probably Mental Awareness, as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Oh, and let us not forget... 1) Abort to Desolid and Invisiblity is illegal... as he would have an action on Segment 12. 2) Takofanes is NOT the sort to panic the second he sees some heroes pop up. And by the time they start hitting him (in a coordinated effort), it's really too late. (right AFTER the 32d6 Move Through he will have taken about 30 points of STUN damage... so he actually has to take _two_ copies of that. That will then STUN him again, I think, as Qu and Mightman continue to beat the crap out of him). Danger Sense. He already knows in the beginning whether these people pose a danger or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Now that I think about it, you do seem to be right. However, _Takofanes_ aborting to Desolid before he gets attacked ONCE is a little out of character... and then he get's hit with the full powered attacks that do STUNning damage. (admittedly that will also really, really hurt MightyMan... unless, of course, he get's lucky and does knockback... which is why I think Poltergeist holding him in the air and Major Victory lowering his KB resistance might be the best plan) Anyway. He gets stunned on 12, and the two heavy hitters (relatively speaking) are both SPD 6. Game, set and match. Assuming he gets hit. Given that his first action is probably going to take out most of the opposition. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Oh yeah... and with a Darkness to Soul Sight covering the Heroes, and Frequency having a "nothing interesting here" illusion up, Takofanes wouldn't even know WHY he was supposed to be aborting to Desolid. These guys ambush him in his next rampage, and he never regains conscioussness before the mana goes away. Anyone care to figure out what happens when they go attack Doctor Destroyer? Exactly who is whipping up said Darkness?? Especially since the Detect is *not* a Sense Group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Um...they're invisible force fields? I *think* the justification is that the invisible force fields are essentially the same "substance" she wraps around herself to make herself invisible, albeit at much greater density. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Damned straight! These guys could take down Takofanes or Destroyer... especially if we used all of them. Those guys *also* epitomize ugly construction. Way, way too many ECs. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Originally Posted by jackalope Well, the problem with that, again, is that at the default starting point of 350, characters that are designed for that purpose and are not built on uber-cheese constructs will simply *fail*. You could give each member of the Champions Duplication (x4) and they would still lose a fight with Dr. Destroyer. Eventually your characters who start at 350 could easily have the XP to face DD as a team, but there's currently not anything in the official CU that explains how the world would continue to fare well until then. That's why some argue that for the sake of internal consistency, it would make sense for there to be a few official NPCs out there who are tough enough to do the job until the PCs get to that point. Building higher-point characters is of course a viable option - one I am doing in the New Sentinels campaign. Eventually they will be taking on Dr. Destroyer, Skarn and beings of that caliber. Of course, some consider those point levels to be cheesy in and of themselves, but what can you do? Which, again, begs the question: Why is building a character on 700+ points cheesy, but building a 350 point character with insanely abusive construction not?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caris Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? In real life, you don't get exposed to cosmic rays as long as you're within Earth's magnetic field. Once you go too far out (the International Space Station isn't too far, the Moon is), you need more shielding. If Reed had built a SpaceShipOne sort of ship, one that was intended to stay close to Earth, he wouldn't have needed any radiation shielding. That "stretching his brain" thing is lame. It doesn't matter if it's canon or not, because Marvel has thrown continuity to the wind over the last 2 or 3 years. You can't follow anything now. The orriginal FF origin story was written prior to the first moon landing, and the moon was the stated goal. Retcons to keep in line with Marvel's 10 year time line (which I have no idea if is still in effect), changed the stated goal as to test an experimental FTL drive. Either situation would take them far enough out. Even so we have been discussing Marvel Continuity. If we are going to throw out the Marvel Continuity, than we have absolutely nothing to work with at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffreyWKramer Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Which, again, begs the question: Why is building a character on 700+ points cheesy, but building a 350 point character with insanely abusive construction not?? That falls into the category of "things mortal man was not meant to know!" There lies madness, my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Oh yeah... and with a Darkness to Soul Sight covering the Heroes, and Frequency having a "nothing interesting here" illusion up, Takofanes wouldn't even know WHY he was supposed to be aborting to Desolid. These guys ambush him in his next rampage, and he never regains conscioussness before the mana goes away. Anyone care to figure out what happens when they go attack Doctor Destroyer? I'll tell you what. You play your dudes and I'll play Takofanes in an arena duel. Assuming no ambush on either side. Anyone care to take a bet on who'll win? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Those guys *also* epitomize ugly construction. Way' date=' way too many ECs. . .[/quote'] To each their own, to own their each... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Worldmaker Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Those guys *also* epitomize ugly construction. Way' date=' way too many ECs. . .[/quote'] Personal prejudice much? Just because you're a points tightwad who thinks points are more important than concept doesn't mean the rest of us are. Sauce for the goose, Mr. Saavik. The first thing I'd do if I put Takofanes or Destroyer into my gameworld is break them down, build them up, and give them access to the same construction rules the PCs are built on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Well, I could see it in a ( high end ) superheroic game, but only for some character concepts, mostly street-level types with limited offensive firepower. *Maybe* you could put it on a Cyclops type dedicated energy blaster, but then the limiting factor is the characters defense. Not for 12 points! If you want to double your damage, you should roughly pay double the cost. And in a high end campaign, presumably you have the points to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pendaran Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Personal prejudice much? Just because you're a points tightwad who thinks points are more important than concept doesn't mean the rest of us are. Sauce for the goose, Mr. Saavik.The first thing I'd do if I put Takofanes or Destroyer into my gameworld is break them down, build them up, and give them access to the same construction rules the PCs are built on. While taking a moment to wonder how only one group of people are getting branded as "personally insulting extremists" in view of statements phrased like these, I'll also point wayy up in this thread to the listing of the various wildly varying villain point totals in that particular campaign continuity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Worldmaker Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? While taking a moment to wonder how only one group of people are getting branded as "personally insulting extremists" in view of statements phrased like these' date=' I'll also point wayy up in this thread to the listing of the various wildly varying villain point totals in that particular campaign continuity.[/quote'] We have a wide range of campaigns with a wide range of point totals. Ergo, we need a wide range of villains at various power levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Which, again, begs the question: Why is building a character on 700+ points cheesy, but building a 350 point character with insanely abusive construction not?? If anything, I'd put that one exactly the other way around: the 700 pt character crammed into 350 pts is cheesier. If a character who can run with well-built 700 pt characters (and note that "well-built" doesn't mean "exploit every loophole in the game) is built on 350 pts, then he either has some serious weaknesses that could be exploited by opponents, or he's built with all sorts of wonky tricks and loopholes that abuse the system. At least the 700 pt character is honestly that powerful. And even then, not all 700 pt characters are built alike -- it really depends on what that second batch of 350 pts is spent on, and the limits/guidelines of the campaign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? it really depends on what that second batch of 350 pts is spent on' date=' and the limits/guidelines of the campaign.[/quote'] And this is a key point again: The limits and guidelines of the campaign are what matter most when determining character power level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Guys, we're on PAGE 29. There are obviously a number of raw nerves exposed here. Page 29, guys... Can't we just agree that characters built on points totals other than the ones we use, or in styles other than the ones we favour are abusive and wrong, and should be excommunicated from the superhero community? Page 29... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? And this is a key point again: The limits and guidelines of the campaign are what matter most when determining character power level. It's a combination. It's quite possible for an optimized 350 pt character to beat a straight 1000 pt character. It's not really possible for that same 350 pt character to beat an optimized 1000 pt character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Schmucks? It's a combination. It's quite possible for an optimized 350 pt character to beat a straight 1000 pt character. It's not really possible for that same 350 pt character to beat an optimized 1000 pt character. Agreed, which is why I said "matter most". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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