Schmucks?

[OddHat]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Not to mention that the guy would also have to have a means of locating them so he can hit them.

 

( while there are methods of destroying the whole earth at once, AFAIK, they are all based on the "Area Effect targets each Hex simultaneously" trick. . . and both Dr D and Tak are a good deal more durable than a hex of rock )

 

Doesn't matter; No More Earth, No More Problem.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Last I checked, that was only true in the Marvel Mangaverse (and possibly Earth X).

 

Neither one of which is canonical at all.

 

really? I can't say I was exactly paying attention at the time I head that.

 

 

Er, what IS the Mangaverse?

[Chuckg]

Re: Schmucks?

 

And really' date=' I disagree with the whole notion of "telling a story" when it comes to RPGs. The game goes where it will go -- the old military adage that "no strategy survives contact with the enemy" is never more true than it is when GMing an RPG. You don't know where it's going.[/quote']

 

You just described last night's game. Halfway through, *boom*, plot outline I had in my head just plain /implodes/ due to clever players. Was improv'ing from then on.

 

It still worked, but whoo, it's been too long since I've been behind the screen, I forgot what a knuckle-biter it is.

 

Edit -- as previously mentioned, this game also was a counter-example to the whole 'overshadow NPC' problem. It's a team of 350-point players, in the same city as a 600-point Silver Avenger... and so far, /they've/ been upstaging /him/ every chance they got.

[Chuckg]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Doesn't matter; No More Earth' date=' No More Problem. [/quote']

 

Not if the villain has Total Life Support.

[Gary]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Except' date=' of course, that it's immediately met with an equally effective PRE attack to get them back on their feet. (note the limiter allows for inspirign PRE attacks) [/quote']

 

 

Nope, Tak has 120 Pre without even using his pool. Up to 210 if he does.

 

MV has only a 90 Pre, so Tak should have +21 or +84 over and above what MV gets on average.

[Chuckg]

Re: Schmucks?

 

really? I can't say I was exactly paying attention at the time I heard that.

 

Er, what IS the Mangaverse?

 

The Mangaverse is from Marvel's seemingly short-lived experiment at publishing Manga comics last year. Like the Ultimate line, the Marvel Manga line was a totally separate thing -- "same character names, totally different people, totally different planet" kinda thing.

 

Earth X was like a really huge Elseworlds series.

 

I haven't seen Reed 'stretch his mind' except in those two.

[caris]

Re: Schmucks?

 

in college, before the powers, Reed was pointing out flaws in Doom's dimension piercing machine, i.e. he could have built a better one.

 

Reed's make himself smarter trick, if you're referring to the one that is canon, was when he needed to make himself smarter than even his normal supergenius levels for a specific thing, it's not something he routinely does. He is normally the guy who is just smart enough to build supertech, whether with a lab, or Macguyvering it from tech stuff he can get in the field.

 

edit: whenever they do "What Ifs?" of alt Reeds, he's always a supergenius, regardless of his powers. Hell, in Exiles a totally powerless Reed was by himself taking his people from medieval tech all the way into the 1950's, then intuitively understanding alien Skrulltech to the point of making use of it to fight Galactus.

Unless, they've retconned that scene again. No, Reed did not point out a flaw that meant he could have built a better machine. He pointed out an error in Doom's computations. It does not follow from that that Reed on his own would have been able to build a better device or not made mistakes of his own that Doom would have caught. It used to be that the whole point of that sequence was to show Doom's monumental egotism and unwillingness to accept that he could do better with the help of others.

[OddHat]

Re: Schmucks?

 

I'm sorry, but I don't think Gary's list is a "good" list if we're referring to cheese. It includes many areas of potential abuse, but singularly, things like "cumulative" and "+8 OCV to head" have excellent reasonable usages and are not inherent cheese. I can imagine either being justified. If it's a list of "potentially easily abused" areas, sure, yeah, but I think to disrespect all of these various ideas carte blanche is blatantly unfair. Which I think some people (not necessarily even Gary who posted it) are doing in their praise of the list.

 

PS - my other point being that these could be credibly built into a character that might beat a much more-powered character.

 

A point that I did make elsewhere: This is not a cheese list. It's a list of things that could be seriously unbalancing. It is however a good list of things that could be seriously unbalancing.

 

GM's call has far more to do with power levels than point totals do, which is in a weird way not a bad reflection of a genre where a characters power varies incredibly depending on the author.

[Chuckg]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Am I the only person who remembers that the first alien conqueror that the FF kicked the ass of was Gormuu - and it happened before the rocket flight?

 

Oh, did I say 'the FF?' I meant 'Reed'. The other three were the audience.

 

Or that in "Timequake", the Reed Richards from an alternate timeline where the FF never got superpowers was able to outsmart and out-tech effing /Kang/?

 

Let alone the examples that Pendaran just listed.

 

In any iteration, in any "What If", in any timeline -- with stretching powers or without, Reed Richards was always One Of The Two Smartest People In The World.

 

So it's not his stretching. It's just him.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Nope, Tak has 120 Pre without even using his pool. Up to 210 if he does.

 

MV has only a 90 Pre, so Tak should have +21 or +84 over and above what MV gets on average.

 

Actually, MV has 120 PRE, total. I kept Tak in mind when designing him. That's a _+90_ PRE; he also has his own natural 90.

 

So, on average, they roll exactly the same.

[Pendaran]

Re: Schmucks?

 

that really depends on how you want to read it, lots of people have used it as far as Reed being a notch better scientist than Doom and Doom being unable to accept that.

[Kristopher]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Takofanes would simply do a Presence Attack' date=' and everyone except Major Victory will be wetting their pants and sucking their thumbs in a corner screaming for Mommy.[/quote']

 

I've never been fond of massive PRE attacks as a legit mechanic.

[Gary]

Re: Schmucks?

 

I'm sorry, but I don't think Gary's list is a "good" list if we're referring to cheese. It includes many areas of potential abuse, but singularly, things like "cumulative" and "+8 OCV to head" have excellent reasonable usages and are not inherent cheese. I can imagine either being justified. If it's a list of "potentially easily abused" areas, sure, yeah, but I think to disrespect all of these various ideas carte blanche is blatantly unfair. Which I think some people (not necessarily even Gary who posted it) are doing in their praise of the list.

 

PS - my other point being that these could be credibly built into a character that might beat a much more-powered character.

 

 

+8 PSLs to the head (in worlds that use hit locations) is cheese no matter how you slice it. 12 pts for an automatic 5 Stun Multiple or 2X damage on normal attacks is obscene.

[zornwil]

Re: Schmucks?

 

A point that I did make elsewhere: This is not a cheese list. It's a list of things that could be seriously unbalancing. It is however a good list of things that could be seriously unbalancing.

 

GM's call has far more to do with power levels than point totals do, which is in a weird way not a bad reflection of a genre where a characters power varies incredibly depending on the author.

Okay, sorry for the inappropriate/already-stated point.

[zornwil]

Re: Schmucks?

 

+8 PSLs to the head (in worlds that use hit locations) is cheese no matter how you slice it. 12 pts for an automatic 5 Stun Multiple or 2X damage on normal attacks is obscene.

It could easily be in concept for an uber-sharpshooter.

 

PS - or a gadget that is trained to detect and hit heads.

[OddHat]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Not if the villain has Total Life Support.

 

He might live, but he won't be conquering that world. We had to destroy the Earth in order to save it.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Schmucks?

 

In the certain other system, Characters can generally 'level up' in maybe 6 sessions. In Champions, it takes a bit longer to earn 250 odd XP.

 

That said, a 'how most veteran players would build their characters' NPCs at 450-500 or so would be acceptable.

thanks for the response. I was thinking 500 might be a good compromise point.

 

To your point in an earlier post, I ran a game that started at about 250-300 for about 4 years, and awarded 3-5 xp per twice-monthly session. The characters made it to about 450-500 total points.

 

Of course, one could run a game where the premise is that the heroes are already experienced and capable, maybe not yet world-beaters but perhaps "big city heroes", built on the 450 or 600 point supers guidelines in FReD.

 

In my experience, the difference in the kinds of adventures high and low level supers go on is comparable to the difference for high and low level FRPG characters. Dr. D kinda represents the great wyrm red dragon of CU villains (so a few legendary NPC heroes floating around the CU keep that dragon from setting too many villages on fire)

[caris]

Re: Schmucks?

 

that really depends on how you want to read it' date=' lots of people have used it as far as Reed being a notch better scientist than Doom and Doom being unable to accept that.[/quote']

Yet, to paraphrase Ben in the FF/X-Men limited series, the big brain of Reed Richards forgot to take into account something as simple as radiation shielding when he built his rocket to the moon.

 

Edit - I need to add that also nothing in my orriginal statement discounts Reed being a better scientist, but that is based more on Doom's ego limiting him. A good scientist does not always assume they are correct. A good scientist will listen to the ideas of others, and not let their own preconceptions blind them.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Schmucks?

 

I've never been fond of massive PRE attacks as a legit mechanic.

It is kinda like AE Mind Control at the high levels...

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Schmucks?

 

It could easily be in concept for an uber-sharpshooter.

 

PS - or a gadget that is trained to detect and hit heads.

 

In that case, extra damage or the like reflecting the capability would be the 'non-cheese' option.

[Gary]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Actually, MV has 120 PRE, total. I kept Tak in mind when designing him. That's a _+90_ PRE; he also has his own natural 90.

 

So, on average, they roll exactly the same.

 

 

Won't help if Tak does the 210 Pre attack.

[Gary]

Re: Schmucks?

 

It could easily be in concept for an uber-sharpshooter.

 

PS - or a gadget that is trained to detect and hit heads.

 

 

At 12 pts, it's pure cheese. The ubersniper should simply buy find weakness instead.

[Pendaran]

Re: Schmucks?

 

well, more usually the "cosmic rays" are taken to be something other than everyday space radiation really, FF/X-men was also where faked journals were created to make Reed and co suspect he had intentionally so exposed them, ruminations like Ben's forget they weren't just hit with standard radiation.

[Gary]

Re: Schmucks?

 

I've never been fond of massive PRE attacks as a legit mechanic.

 

 

If you don't allow Pre attacks, then Pre should be a much cheaper stat.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Won't help if Tak does the 210 Pre attack.

 

Uhm, that requires him to _get_ an action to configure his power pool. By that point, most of the team will have acted, Illusions will be up to make him look like a cute fluffy bunny (and sound like he's mute), and it might well be too late. (you can only take 0 phase actions on your turns)

 

So no, I don't think Tak gets to go "PRE Attack, I win".

 

And if need be, I can scrap Major Victory's Suppress for more PRE.

 

(Heck, if you're going tor "Pre Attacks Uber Alles"... give a 250 pt 4th ed hero this power:

 

100 "I am one scary @#$%er": +200 PRE, Offensive Only

 

I believe that will make even Takofanes the Mighty wet himself, as his personal PRE is only 60... at this point, any power that can hurt him is sufficient.)