SleepyDrug Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks Gravitar does want to conquer the world. But she is new to the endeavor and has little besides her personal power to accomplish this with (no bases, agents, etc). As do Dr Destroyer, Istvatha V'han, Menton, Takofanes, and Zorran. The Warlord doesn't but he is still a world class threat. Mechanon & Holocaust wants to conquer earth as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nero's Boot Posted October 31, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks Well, to be more correct, Mechanon wants to cleanse the world of organic taint. Ruling it is strictly a by-product of his insane crusade. Question: Does Dr. Destroyer have any actual powers, or is his godly might solely restricted to his armored suit and, what is most likely an obscene gadget-related VPP point total? (As a side note: I find it highly ironic that a guy thousands of years younger than Takofanes can kick the Archlich's ass, and doesn't even have any actual powers...) --also, what point-base is Takofanes built on, if it's OK to mention here? NB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks Well' date=' to be more correct, Mechanon wants to [i']cleanse[/i] the world of organic taint. Ruling it is strictly a by-product of his insane crusade. Question: Does Dr. Destroyer have any actual powers, or is his godly might solely restricted to his armored suit and, what is most likely an obscene gadget-related VPP point total? (As a side note: I find it highly ironic that a guy thousands of years younger than Takofanes can kick the Archlich's ass, and doesn't even have any actual powers...) --also, what point-base is Takofanes built on, if it's OK to mention here? NB Somebody please stop me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks Try to imagine Dr. Doom with near Thanos-like power levels in his armor. That's Dr. Destroyer. He is the most powerful character yet published' date=' and that includes all of the cosmic entities we have seen published to date.[/quote'] If we're including the bunch from Galactic Champions I would have to respectfully disagree, MS. Mechanon 3000 totally eclipses Destroyer in power, and the Examiner could twist him like a pretzel. If we're talking about Earthly villains in the contemporary CU, though, you're undoubtedly correct. Destroyer has to be the most powerful villain on Earth - it says so in his writeup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks Question: Does Dr. Destroyer have any actual powers, or is his godly might solely restricted to his armored suit and, what is most likely an obscene gadget-related VPP point total? (As a side note: I find it highly ironic that a guy thousands of years younger than Takofanes can kick the Archlich's ass, and doesn't even have any actual powers...) --also, what point-base is Takofanes built on, if it's OK to mention here? NB All of the Doctor's superhuman abilities are derived from his incredible battlesuit and other gadgets. However, since his battlesuit can't be removed against his will (not built as a Focus), and Destroyer never removes it except in private when he's in his most secure facilities, it's functionally the same as innate powers. A significant part of Dr. D's points are devoted to a staggering array of Skills, Talents and Perks. OTOH he's also explicitly given carte blanche to have whatever Bases, Vehicles and Followers he needs for a given plot, without having to pay for them. Takofanes is built on 1,943 points. This includes a 150-pt. cosmic VPP, plus other major Powers; his largest Power is well over 500 Active Points. Like Destroyer, he's assumed to have any Bases and Followers necessary. It's been mentioned that the level of magic in the contemporary CU is less than during the Turakian Age, so Takofanes is somewhat less powerful than at his height. Also, don't forget that Tak spent most of those 70,000 years buried under Oklahoma. (No offense intended to Okies, of course.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks Somebody please stop me. STOP! HALT! CEASE AND DESIST!! FUGGEDABOUDIT!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nero's Boot Posted October 31, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks All of the Doctor's superhuman abilities are derived from his incredible battlesuit and other gadgets. However' date=' since his battlesuit can't be removed against his will (not built as a Focus), and Destroyer never removes it except in private when he's in his most secure facilities, it's functionally the same as innate powers.[/quote'] Wicked. Maybe he never takes the damn thing off... A significant part of Dr. D's points are devoted to a staggering array of Skills, Talents and Perks. OTOH he's also explicitly given carte blanche to have whatever Bases, Vehicles and Followers he needs for a given plot, without having to pay for them. Wicked, again. Nothing quite beats a supervillain with unlimited followers and nifty gadgets. Takofanes is built on 1,943 points. This includes a 150-pt. cosmic VPP, plus other major Powers; his largest Power is well over 500 Active Points. Like Destroyer, he's assumed to have any Bases and Followers necessary. Well, duh. The guy's an undead god. --Takofanes and Dr. Destroyer intrigue me more than any other Champions villains NB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks --Takofanes and Dr. Destroyer intrigue me more than any other Champions villains NB That's an interesting and, in context, ironic statement, NB. These two villains get perhaps the most comments from Champions fans as being among the least intriguing, at least as written. Few personality quirks, not much subtlety to their plans; mostly just arrogance, ambition and so much raw power that any opponents below near-cosmic would be slaughtered by them. I'm not saying that you'd be wrong to use them that way if you wanted to, or that you couldn't easily tweak them to your preferences. I can understand the position of the critics, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nero's Boot Posted October 31, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks Lord Liaden, I am a big believer in giant, cosmically-powerful NPCs as a source of adventures and campaigns. Call it the "trickle-down theory" of superheroic adventuring. Essentially, you have some cosmic villain like Dr. Destroyer; some see in Destroyer a campaign-ender that cannot be used in most campaigns, due to his obscene levels of power. Thus, they refuse to use the "good" Doctor, in preference for lesser villains. However, my "trickle-down theory" states the exact opposite: That villains like Takofanes and Dr. Destroyer are perfect for campaigns of all sorts. Say Dr. Destroyer is searching for an alien weapon with the power to trigger solar flares, in his latest bid for world dominance. 350-point PCs can easily get involved in such a plot, as they unknowingly smash Destroyer's henchmen searching for the device, in a campaign that takes them all across the Earth, the stars, and beyond. Meanwhile, completely off-screen, higher-point-total NPC heroes keep Destroyer occupied, until by the time the Doctor realizes it, Our Heroes have found the solar flare triggering device, and have annihilated it. --presto, instant campaign NB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleepyDrug Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks Also, someone like Destroyer is a good foil in terms of the PC's stopping his plans but never quite defeating him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nero's Boot Posted October 31, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks Also' date=' someone like Destroyer is a good foil in terms of the PC's stopping his plans but never quite defeating him.[/quote'] Agreed. Dr. Destroyer makes an excellent villain to always plague the party, not matter how powerful they get. --which is yet another reason why I love both Dr. Destroyer and Takofanes NB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks The master villians are: Dr. Destroyer Gravitar Istvatha V'han Menton (no longer working for Dr. D, thus an independent) The Warlord (crud, I'm blanking on #6!) Dark Seraph is powerful enough to be a master villian, but is listed along with the Crowns of Krim in the Team section. Takofanes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleepyDrug Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks Holocaust is also up there and Zorran could be with just a slight upping or some good tactics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks Well' date=' to be more correct, Mechanon wants to [i']cleanse[/i] the world of organic taint. Ruling it is strictly a by-product of his insane crusade. Question: Does Dr. Destroyer have any actual powers, or is his godly might solely restricted to his armored suit and, what is most likely an obscene gadget-related VPP point total? (As a side note: I find it highly ironic that a guy thousands of years younger than Takofanes can kick the Archlich's ass, and doesn't even have any actual powers...) --also, what point-base is Takofanes built on, if it's OK to mention here? NB Nope, Dr Destroyer just has a high INT and a lot of talent. And, no, he couldn't "kick Takofanes' ass." While beating Takofanes in a straight fight is *possible*, its not very likely, between the 75% DR and the 150 point cosmic VPP. As for point base, Tak is built on just under 2000 points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks That's an interesting and, in context, ironic statement, NB. These two villains get perhaps the most comments from Champions fans as being among the least intriguing, at least as written. Few personality quirks, not much subtlety to their plans; mostly just arrogance, ambition and so much raw power that any opponents below near-cosmic would be slaughtered by them. I'm not saying that you'd be wrong to use them that way if you wanted to, or that you couldn't easily tweak them to your preferences. I can understand the position of the critics, though. Can't disagree too much here. OTOH, Takofanes gets major points in my mind for carry-over coolness from his much earlier years as Kal-Turak, Ravager of Men. Now, *THAT* guy is cool, and terrifyingly powerful and competent. Takofanes is just a shadow of him at his peak, not so much in power as competence. Apparently, 70000 years of isolation doesn't help one's sanity. . . As for Dr D, I think he's close, he just needs something a little bit extra to put him well into the "cool" range. I'm not sure what, though. Noblesse Oblige doesn't work. Maybe explicit plans for his post-conquest world ( I'm thinking he'd want to become either a dimensional or galactic conqueror ). Maybe an elaboration on *why* he seeks total power, beyond/in-addition-to simple powerlust ( an extended metaphor using dolls, and those who play with them, as a description for life, with his desire to conquer all rooted in a desire to ensure he is never subject to such "play" ever again?? ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks Lord Liaden, I am a big believer in giant, cosmically-powerful NPCs as a source of adventures and campaigns. Call it the "trickle-down theory" of superheroic adventuring. Essentially, you have some cosmic villain like Dr. Destroyer; some see in Destroyer a campaign-ender that cannot be used in most campaigns, due to his obscene levels of power. Thus, they refuse to use the "good" Doctor, in preference for lesser villains. However, my "trickle-down theory" states the exact opposite: That villains like Takofanes and Dr. Destroyer are perfect for campaigns of all sorts. Say Dr. Destroyer is searching for an alien weapon with the power to trigger solar flares, in his latest bid for world dominance. 350-point PCs can easily get involved in such a plot, as they unknowingly smash Destroyer's henchmen searching for the device, in a campaign that takes them all across the Earth, the stars, and beyond. Meanwhile, completely off-screen, higher-point-total NPC heroes keep Destroyer occupied, until by the time the Doctor realizes it, Our Heroes have found the solar flare triggering device, and have annihilated it. --presto, instant campaign NB You know, in some ways, this describes how the DEMON sourcebook, and the organization DEMON, is currently designed: the plots of one single man producing countless opportunities for stories throughout the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffreyWKramer Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks That's an interesting and' date=' in context, ironic statement, NB. These two villains get perhaps the most comments from Champions fans as being among the least intriguing, at least as written. Few personality quirks, not much subtlety to their plans; mostly just arrogance, ambition and so much raw power that any opponents below near-cosmic would be slaughtered by them.[/quote'] I have to disagree with that assessment, at least as applied to Dr. Destroyer. I felt that in previous versions, but I think the write-up for the 5E Dr. D clearly establishes his personality. He's a grandiose, narcissistic, megalomanic but exceptionally patient super-genius. True, it's not the most well-rounded personality of all time, but monomanic egoists are generally not the most well-rounded of beings. Besides, his tendency to misrepresent himself as having some degree of nobility and his tendency to compare himself to a god are pretty darn amusing. I have no problem with Doc. Takofanes... well, he's more a cosmic force than a character. He doesn't have much personality, but then neither does a black hole or a man-eating crocodile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffreyWKramer Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks Holocaust is also up there and Zorran could be with just a slight upping or some good tactics Holocaust and Zorran are excellent opponents for typical starting-points supergroups. Holocaust, in particular, can easily fill the Magneto role for a 350-pt hero team (as he currently does for the team Aegis, in Chuck's "Chicago Champions" game). On their own they present a credible threat and have a good chance of defeating the heroes, but they can be defeated through sound tactics and teamwork (though a bit of good luck never hurts, either). They are also excellent choices as behind-the-scenes plotters for heroes at that power level. Any of the actual master villains would waste either pretty effortlessly, though, as would a solid, experienced team like Eurostar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleepyDrug Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks HERO doesn't actually balance its villains for what it considers the standard campaign. you need 14 Damage Classes and 35 pt Defenses against most villains as written up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffreyWKramer Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks HERO doesn't actually balance its villains for what it considers the standard campaign. you need 14 Damage Classes and 35 pt Defenses against most villains as written up Which villains are you referring to? The high-end master villains? You're right, but they're clearly not intended to fight starting 350-pt characters. That's what guys like the Ultimates, PSI, Zig Zag, Morningstar, Ogre, Esper, Herculan, Foxbat, Leech and Stormfront are for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleepyDrug Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks Which villains are you referring to? The high-end master villains? You're right' date=' but they're clearly not intended to fight starting 350-pt characters. That's what guys like the Ultimates, PSI, Zig Zag, Morningstar, Ogre, Esper, Herculan, Foxbat, Leech and Stormfront are for.[/quote'] Villains in general. The standard power level for PC's is a 350 point character with 40 - 80 AP powers, with an average of 10d6 attacks and an average of 20 points of defense. Esper, Ogre, Herculan, Stormfront, and Morningstar or the Ultimates would slaughter a character with 20 points of defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffreyWKramer Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks Villains in general. The standard power level for PC's is a 350 point character with 40 - 80 AP powers, with an average of 10d6 attacks and an average of 20 points of defense. Esper, Ogre, Herculan, Stormfront, and Morningstar or the Ultimates would slaughter a character with 20 points of defense. All of the characters you mention have DCs falling in the level you mention, and in my experience, all the characters I listed, including those immediately above, are great choices for characters of that power range. The Ultimates and PSI, of course, are meant to be fought by *teams* of characters built on around 350 pts. But hey, the rest of you? Do any of you think 350-pt characters are outclassed by this crew? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks All of the characters you mention have DCs falling in the level you mention, and in my experience, all the characters I listed, including those immediately above, are great choices for characters of that power range. The Ultimates and PSI, of course, are meant to be fought by *teams* of characters built on around 350 pts. But hey, the rest of you? Do any of you think 350-pt characters are outclassed by this crew? I'll have to check when I get home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks If we're including the bunch from Galactic Champions I would have to respectfully disagree, MS. Mechanon 3000 totally eclipses Destroyer in power, and the Examiner could twist him like a pretzel. If we're talking about Earthly villains in the contemporary CU, though, you're undoubtedly correct. Destroyer has to be the most powerful villain on Earth - it says so in his writeup. I agree with you but the C3000 world is a more magic-rich enviroment so everyone is more powerful. I wonder what Dr. Destroyer would look like in an enviroment which is 110% more powerful? 45d6+ primary attack? 75 DEF and 3/4 damage reduction? 12 s[eed Probably all the above, and more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks Also' date=' someone like Destroyer is a good foil in terms of the PC's stopping his plans but never quite defeating him.[/quote'] That's one of the points I was trying to make in the "schmucks" threat somewhere back on page 1 or 2. Ultimately all Master Villains are foils. The PCs defeat the plan, might or might not encounter the main villain, and yet the main villain always seems to get away somehow. 42 years and the FF still hasn't captured Dr. Doom. Loki still runs free to harass Thor. Myphesto is still tormenting Silver Surfer. Only Batman seems to capture anyone and Arkham is like a revolving door. Sometimes stopping Dr. Destroyer from launching his kelvarite satellite is all you can do. Even Dr. Destroyer might get a chuckle how a bunch of insignificant ants managed to foil his master plan. Perhaps they need watching? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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