Conquerors, Killers and Crooks

[MitchellS]

Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks

 

I'll have to check when I get home.

They're all in the same basic power level you described. Those characters are actually fairly weak, in my opinion.

[Kristopher]

Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks

 

I agree with you but the C3000 world is a more magic-rich enviroment so everyone is more powerful. I wonder what Dr. Destroyer would look like in an enviroment which is 110% more powerful? 45d6+ primary attack? 75 DEF and 3/4 damage reduction? 12 s[eed Probably all the above, and more.

 

The one thing I'll never use from the official Hero Universe is this wonky "waxing and waning magic" thing. Attempting to shoehorn all the settings into one timeline was, IMO, a mistake.

 

I also reject it because I really dislike the "all superpowers, even supertech, are all just manifestations of magic" concept.

[Kristopher]

Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks

 

They're all in the same basic power level you described. Those characters are actually fairly weak, in my opinion.

 

What power level? Are you sure you're not confusing me with someone else?

[MitchellS]

Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks

 

What power level? Are you sure you're not confusing me with someone else?

Yep, sorry about that. Been a long Halloween.

[MitchellS]

Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks

 

The one thing I'll never use from the official Hero Universe is this wonky "waxing and waning magic" thing. Attempting to shoehorn all the settings into one timeline was, IMO, a mistake.

 

I also reject it because I really dislike the "all superpowers, even supertech, are all just manifestations of magic" concept.

It doesn't really bother me because I don't use the CU.

 

I think most campaign worlds need some sort of catalyst to explain why there are superhumans. The new campaign I'm writing uses Tunguska and Halley's Comet. I think the only thing that really bothers me about it is that it ends in 2020. It makes games like our current Legacy Universe campaign (our characters are the children of current heroes but are from 2030 transported back in time) almost impossible to run if you wish to maintain CU continuity. At least with the current CU there's a real reason to see Stronghammer The Dwarf show up.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks

 

I also reject it because I really dislike the "all superpowers, even supertech, are all just manifestations of magic" concept.

 

That's not accurate. Superpowers require that there be high levels of ambient magic in the universe before they can manifest, but that does not make them magic themselves.

[Kristopher]

Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks

 

That's not accurate. Superpowers require that there be high levels of ambient magic in the universe before they can manifest, but that does not make them magic themselves.

 

IMO, if all superpowers need magic to function and all superpowers can't exist without magic, then all superpowers are magic.

 

And I don't like that aspect of the HU/CU setting.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks

 

Holocaust and Zorran are excellent opponents for typical starting-points supergroups. Holocaust' date=' in particular, can easily fill the Magneto role for a 350-pt hero team (as he currently does for the team Aegis, in Chuck's "Chicago Champions" game). On their own they present a credible threat and have a good chance of defeating the heroes, but they can be defeated through sound tactics and teamwork (though a bit of good luck never hurts, either). They are also excellent choices as behind-the-scenes plotters for heroes at that power level. Any of the actual master villains would waste either pretty effortlessly, though, as would a solid, experienced team like Eurostar.[/quote']

 

Well, that's open to debate. Holocaust is extremely powerful. I just used him against my group of seven standard heroes(as part of Champions Battlegrounds) and he trounced them easily. Not only does he have powerful energy blasts, but he has high defenses and Damage Reduction. He also has a combination of high REC, SPD, and energy absorption that makes him very difficult to take down. He may be listed as a grade B Master Villain, but I think that's due to MO, not power level. If anything, Holocaust spends more points on powers/abilities relative to his actual point total than other "Master Villain" types.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks

 

IMO' date=' if all superpowers need magic to function and all superpowers can't exist without magic, then all superpowers [i']are[/i] magic.

 

Fire needs combustible material, like wood, to burn.

 

Does that make fire a manifestation of wood?

[SleepyDrug]

Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks

 

Well' date=' that's open to debate. Holocaust is extremely powerful. I just used him against my group of seven standard heroes(as part of Champions Battlegrounds) and he trounced them easily. Not only does he have powerful energy blasts, but he has high defenses and Damage Reduction. He also has a combination of high REC, SPD, and energy absorption that makes him very difficult to take down. He may be listed as a grade B Master Villain, but I think that's due to MO, not power level. If anything, Holocaust spends more points on powers/abilities relative to his actual point total than other "Master Villain" types.[/quote']

 

Agreed. But he is far more defeatable than Dr Destroyer or Takofanes. He makes a perfect beginning master villain or alternative to those two maniacs.

[Kristopher]

Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks

 

Fire needs combustible material, like wood, to burn.

 

Does that make fire a manifestation of wood?

 

I hate arguement by bad metaphor.

 

 

But even if we used your inappropriate metaphor, it would still come down to the fact that I really don't like the idea of all superpowers, including technology, being fueled by magic (and that basically makes them magic anyway).

 

Whatever.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks

 

I hate arguement by bad metaphor.

 

And I hate when people attempt to conceal their inability to defend their position.

 

An object or event is not identical to the objects or events that created it or made it possible. Your statement that all superpowers in the CU are magic is an illogical interpretation of the scenario presented.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks

 

 

But even if we used your inappropriate metaphor, it would still come down to the fact that I really don't like the idea

 

That, on the other hand, is fine with me. You're welcome to not like it; I just had problems with your summary of how the CU explains superpowers.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks

 

I agree with you but the C3000 world is a more magic-rich enviroment so everyone is more powerful. I wonder what Dr. Destroyer would look like in an enviroment which is 110% more powerful? 45d6+ primary attack? 75 DEF and 3/4 damage reduction? 12 s[eed Probably all the above' date= and more. [/quote]

 

Immediately, there would be no change. I have a feeling his initial efforts would be more focused on creating a warfleet for himself, as his suit is already practically starship calibre.

[Kristopher]

Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks

 

And I hate when people attempt to conceal their inability to defend their position.

 

An object or event is not identical to the objects or events that created it or made it possible. Your statement that all superpowers in the CU are magic is an illogical interpretation of the scenario presented.

 

That, on the other hand, is fine with me. You're welcome to not like it; I just had problems with your summary of how the CU explains superpowers.

 

IMO, "all superpowers are fueled by magic" is the same thing as "all superpowers are magic".

 

If my character's A-Grav boots and Ray Pistol only work because there's magic "about", and quit working when the magic goes away, then, IMO, that makes them magic, not technological.

 

Technology isn't magic, it doesn't depend on magic, and taking away "the ambient magic" won't do crap to a technology-based super. Not only do I not like the idea that non-magical superpowers are magic, or fueled by magic, or whatever, in and of itself, I also have bad memories of Mage: the Ascension and all the hack-kneed freshman-year metaphysical crap from that setting.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks

 

It doesn't really bother me because I don't use the CU.

 

I think most campaign worlds need some sort of catalyst to explain why there are superhumans. The new campaign I'm writing uses Tunguska and Halley's Comet. I think the only thing that really bothers me about it is that it ends in 2020. It makes games like our current Legacy Universe campaign (our characters are the children of current heroes but are from 2030 transported back in time) almost impossible to run if you wish to maintain CU continuity. At least with the current CU there's a real reason to see Stronghammer The Dwarf show up.

 

Well, its easy enough to maintain the continuity. . . to a point.

 

Just have Tyrannon get foiled in some way that *doesn't* require taking the collective mana of the universe and beating him over the head with it.

 

Of course, you then have to make up the timeline from 2020 on. . .

[Kristopher]

Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks

 

Villains in general.

 

The standard power level for PC's is a 350 point character with 40 - 80 AP powers, with an average of 10d6 attacks and an average of 20 points of defense.

 

Esper, Ogre, Herculan, Stormfront, and Morningstar or the Ultimates would slaughter a character with 20 points of defense.

 

 

All of the characters you mention have DCs falling in the level you mention, and in my experience, all the characters I listed, including those immediately above, are great choices for characters of that power range. The Ultimates and PSI, of course, are meant to be fought by *teams* of characters built on around 350 pts.

 

But hey, the rest of you? Do any of you think 350-pt characters are outclassed by this crew?

 

OK, vs characters with 20 PD/ED...

 

Esper

Depends on if the target PC has mental defenses, since Esper has no PD/ED attacks. An all-or-nothing type NPC, unless she can control someone else to do her fighting for her.

 

Ogre

13 DCs vs 20 Def = average of 26 STUN through per hit -- CON stuns a significant fraction, knocks many below zero STUN in two hits

 

Herculan

About an even challenge, until he starts Transfering STR, DEX and/or STUN

 

Stormfront

Lighting power of 2.5d6 RKA vs 20 Def = average of 2 STUN through per hit, with the randomness of the STUN lotto to keep in mind.

Blizzard power of 3d6 NND vs no def = average of 11 STUN through per hit, or none at all.

Both with the caveat that his ability to radically affect the battlefield can make him far tougher to defeat 1-on-1 than those attack powers might indicate

 

Morningstar

16 DCs vs 20 Def = average of 36 STUN through per hit -- CON stuns most, knocks most below zero STUN in two hits

 

Binder

Specialist character -- if the PC can avoid the Entangles, Binder lacks the staying power to avoid being beaten quickly by most characters...a character who can attack even when entangled, such as a mentallist, will really make Binder's day miserable.

 

Blackstar

At 80 STR, he's very likely to pound the snot out of any 20 PD/ED character he can connect with -- and that TK for pulling certainly helps.

 

Cyclone

His 10d6 Double KB EB can really knock a 20 PD/ED target around -- averages 15 STUN through on the hit and a significant amount through on the landing -- and his other attacks are a Cone AoE and an Explosion, so he's unlikely to miss with those. Quick and maneuverable, too.

 

Radium

Hard to hurt with energy-based attacks, and his attack powers are pretty nasty against any PC without the appropriate "limited defenses".

 

Slick

Unless I'm missing something, he has no attack powers of his own, and should be pretty much useless against a flying PC unless the PC needs to hold onto Foci.

 

Thunderbolt I

15 DCs vs 20 Def = average of 33 STUN through per hit -- CON stuns most, knocks most below zero STUN in two hits

[MitchellS]

Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks

 

OK, vs characters with 20 PD/ED...

 

Esper

Depends on if the target PC has mental defenses, since Esper has no PD/ED attacks. An all-or-nothing type NPC, unless she can control someone else to do her fighting for her.

 

Ogre

13 DCs vs 20 Def = average of 26 STUN through per hit -- CON stuns a significant fraction, knocks many below zero STUN in two hits

 

Herculan

About an even challenge, until he starts Transfering STR, DEX and/or STUN

 

Stormfront

Lighting power of 2.5d6 RKA vs 20 Def = average of 2 STUN through per hit, with the randomness of the STUN lotto to keep in mind.

Blizzard power of 3d6 NND vs no def = average of 11 STUN through per hit, or none at all.

Both with the caveat that his ability to radically affect the battlefield can make him far tougher to defeat 1-on-1 than those attack powers might indicate

 

Morningstar

16 DCs vs 20 Def = average of 36 STUN through per hit -- CON stuns most, knocks most below zero STUN in two hits

 

Binder

Specialist character -- if the PC can avoid the Entangles, Binder lacks the staying power to avoid being beaten quickly by most characters...a character who can attack even when entangled, such as a mentallist, will really make Binder's day miserable.

 

Blackstar

At 80 STR, he's very likely to pound the snot out of any 20 PD/ED character he can connect with -- and that TK for pulling certainly helps.

 

Cyclone

His 10d6 Double KB EB can really knock a 20 PD/ED target around -- averages 15 STUN through on the hit and a significant amount through on the landing -- and his other attacks are a Cone AoE and an Explosion, so he's unlikely to miss with those. Quick and maneuverable, too.

 

Radium

Hard to hurt with energy-based attacks, and his attack powers are pretty nasty against any PC without the appropriate "limited defenses".

 

Slick

Unless I'm missing something, he has no attack powers of his own, and should be pretty much useless against a flying PC unless the PC needs to hold onto Foci.

 

Thunderbolt I

15 DCs vs 20 Def = average of 33 STUN through per hit -- CON stuns most, knocks most below zero STUN in two hits

Put a 13 dc hero against any of them and you see pretty-much the same effect reversed on all of them. Most characters, heroes and villains, in the game are two-three hits to take out. That's probably why we have maneuvers like dodge and dive for cover.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks

 

Put a 13 dc hero against any of them and you see pretty-much the same effect reversed on all of them. Most characters' date=' heroes and villains, in the game are two-three hits to take out. That's probably why we have maneuvers like dodge and dive for cover.[/quote']

 

Generally speaking the ratio of defense size vs. attack size has been more in favor of attack than in earlier editions of Champions. The popular theory (which I'm not sure Hero Games has ever affirmed or denied) is that this is a deliberate design choice to make combat go faster. The pace of super combat in Champions was a long-standing complaint from quite a few people, some of them HERO gamers.

[Vondy]

Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks

 

That's not accurate. Superpowers require that there be high levels of ambient magic in the universe before they can manifest' date=' but that does not make them magic themselves.[/quote']

 

If I'm running a hard sci-fi game magic shouldn't exist at all. The meta-setting was a really bad idea IMHO. It wasn't necessary and many of its assumptions are contrary to the very essence of many genres. I ignore the meta-setting. It serves little functional purpose and requires silly theoretical explanations to justify.

[Vondy]

Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks

 

Generally speaking the ratio of defense size vs. attack size has been more in favor of attack than in earlier editions of Champions. The popular theory (which I'm not sure Hero Games has ever affirmed or denied) is that this is a deliberate design choice to make combat go faster. The pace of super combat in Champions was a long-standing complaint from quite a few people' date=' some of them HERO gamers.[/quote']

 

I'm of the opinion is makes block, dodge, and dive for cover more appealing, which to some degree means "more realistic" combat choices. Of course, if the character does use those maneuvers with any success, combat doesn't necessarily become shorter. I generally like the new ratios, though I think there is some imbalances in some of the designs as a result.

[Starlord]

Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks

 

I'm of the opinion is makes block' date=' dodge, and dive for cover more appealing, which to some degree means "more realistic" combat choices. Of course, if the character does use those maneuvers with any success, combat doesn't necessarily become shorter. I generally like the new ratios, though I think there is some imbalances in some of the designs as a result.[/quote']

Agreed. Actual battlefield combat involves a good deal of maneuvering into position, short bursts of attacking, finding cover, radio contact to maximize forces into a certain area, attacking in short bursts again, and seizing the right moment to launch an overwhelming offensive.

 

Although, I don't think it approximates face-to-face HTH combat very well. There's very little blocking and dodging there. That's more movies and comic books.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks

 

OK, vs characters with 20 PD/ED...

 

Esper

Depends on if the target PC has mental defenses, since Esper has no PD/ED attacks. An all-or-nothing type NPC, unless she can control someone else to do her fighting for her.

 

Ogre

13 DCs vs 20 Def = average of 26 STUN through per hit -- CON stuns a significant fraction, knocks many below zero STUN in two hits

 

Herculan

About an even challenge, until he starts Transfering STR, DEX and/or STUN

 

Stormfront

Lighting power of 2.5d6 RKA vs 20 Def = average of 2 STUN through per hit, with the randomness of the STUN lotto to keep in mind.

Blizzard power of 3d6 NND vs no def = average of 11 STUN through per hit, or none at all.

Both with the caveat that his ability to radically affect the battlefield can make him far tougher to defeat 1-on-1 than those attack powers might indicate

 

Morningstar

16 DCs vs 20 Def = average of 36 STUN through per hit -- CON stuns most, knocks most below zero STUN in two hits

 

Binder

Specialist character -- if the PC can avoid the Entangles, Binder lacks the staying power to avoid being beaten quickly by most characters...a character who can attack even when entangled, such as a mentallist, will really make Binder's day miserable.

 

Blackstar

At 80 STR, he's very likely to pound the snot out of any 20 PD/ED character he can connect with -- and that TK for pulling certainly helps.

 

Cyclone

His 10d6 Double KB EB can really knock a 20 PD/ED target around -- averages 15 STUN through on the hit and a significant amount through on the landing -- and his other attacks are a Cone AoE and an Explosion, so he's unlikely to miss with those. Quick and maneuverable, too.

 

Radium

Hard to hurt with energy-based attacks, and his attack powers are pretty nasty against any PC without the appropriate "limited defenses".

 

Slick

Unless I'm missing something, he has no attack powers of his own, and should be pretty much useless against a flying PC unless the PC needs to hold onto Foci.

 

Thunderbolt I

15 DCs vs 20 Def = average of 33 STUN through per hit -- CON stuns most, knocks most below zero STUN in two hits

 

OTOH, the Ultimates are not exactly 350 point characters. They range from 380 to 540.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks

 

Rather than comparing this crew to the generic 350=pt "character with 20/20 PD/ED" - which tells us nothing about relevant factors such as OCV, DCV, Damage Classes in attacks, etc, let's compare this bunch of bad-guys to some actual characters - the Aegis team members of Chuck's Chicago Champions game.

 

Aegis consists of the following:

Malleable Man - Sorta-brick with stretching and body warping powers. His base damage is 9d6 in some AoE 1 Hex atttacks (Grab, HA), with the possibility of adding up to +3d6 due to Stretching momentum or Growth. HE has 20/14 Defenses, some of it resistant. He also has some Lack of Weakness and Power Defense.

Nox - Darkness user, minor martial artist. 27 DEX, 9d6 base damage with staff, plus an array of powers which can screw people over, including Darkness, Darkness UaA, Entangle. Defenses 20/20, most of it Resistant via Armor

Diomedes - Martial Artist/Skills-Based Character with the blessing of Athena. His biggest attack is 10d6 if he uses his billyclubs, but he has Find Weakness (11-) with all his attacks. 12/12 Defenses, including low-end Body Armor, plus 3/3 Combat Luck and a couple points of Flash Defense

Peregrine - Flying armored guy with blasters and martial arts skills. 23/23 Defenses, mostly Resistant due to Armor. He can dish out a 10d6 Kick and has a tough multipower with 75 active points in EB 15d6 or 10d6 0 END, 7d6 NND (Power Defense), 6d6 AOE EB or Ranged Missile Reflection vs. All Attacks.

Valor Half-Empyrean brick/martial artist. High DEX, 15/15 Resistant Defenses plus some Power and Mental Defense and partial Life Support, able to put out a 15d6 Offensive Strike, has some enhanced senses, including Targeting Hearing.

 

Those interested can read about this bunch here:

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=23728

 

Anyhow, the point is, these are actual 350 point characters with legal builds that are played in an actual campaign. Let's see how they stack up against the villains.

 

Malleable Man:

Esper would be able to mess with him bad, but he can one-punch her. One sided battle either way.

Ogre is stronger and more durable, but Malleable Man can have a much better DCV, can hit Ogre at will with his Area attacks and is a lot smarter, which means Ogre is vulnerable to tricks and stunts that more intelligent opponents wouldn't fall for.

Herculan is tough, but Malleable Man has enough Power Defense to slow him down and greatly reduce the impact of his Transfers. Plus, Mal can hit him easily. Probably an even match overall.

Stormfront can fly, which creates problems for most of the team, and his NND Blizzard targets one of Mal's weaknesses (Cold). The KA isn't overwhelming, though, and Stormfront doesn't have much in the way of personal defenses. If he gets into close range at all, between Superleap and Stretching, Malleable Man can probably one-punch him. If he stays at good range, he's going to win. More or less even.

Morningstar is tough. On the other hand, a lot of his damage is done through a Focus, meaning he's screwed if grabbed - which Mal does vs. DCV3. Either one can take it, but if Mal fights smart at all - and uses his DCV Levels that Cost END - he will take it more often than not.

Binder is in trouble unless he has a "Stops Desolid" on one of his Entangles. A grab or a punch puts him out of the fight. Definitely in Mal's favor.

Blackstar - No way is Mal taking him out solo. Blackstar will be lucky to hit Mal, but if he does, Malleable Man is probably down for the count. Stalemate, until the rest of the team gets involved.

Cyclone. Double KB vs. Clinging = not a big deal. The other attacks aren't really large, but Mal has trouble dealing with explosions. Cyclone is hard to hit, though, and a flyer. Cyclone has the edge due to maneuverability and will probably take this more often than not, but if he gets within stretch/superleap range, he's history.

Radium will probably do a lot of damage to Malleable Man (I don't recall what the defense against his NND is), but Mal is all about physical. It's a battle of attrition to see who falls first. Radium is in trouble vs. a simple grab and throw maneuver, though.

Slick is hard to hit and can do an okay move by/through. Mal does AoE attacks. Slick's only advantage is SPD,and that can be negated by Abort to Desol. Slick is toast.

Thunderbolt I - Able to do good energy damage vs. low ED. Probably takes Mal more most of the time.

 

That's not too shabby overall - even match often, outclassed a couple of times, outclasses the opposition a couple of times.

 

Next up: Nox.

First off, anyone without funky sense powers is going to be SOL, as is anyone who can't readily break a 7d6 Entangle that stops sight group.

Esper - hosed

Ogre - Won't ever hit Nox, given Darkness, but she can't harm him much either. The Entangle will slow him down some, keeping him busy until someone stronger can come finish him off.

Herculan - See "Ogre" above

Stormfront - Flight gives him some edge, but he has to be able to see to target most of his attacks effectively. She Putting the Darkness on him will hose him badly. Edge goes to Nox.

Morningstar - Entangle vs. Foci. I don't recall him having non-vision senses, either. He would have to get lucky to hit her. She can at least keep him busy/frustrated, and he's not escaping the Entangle any time soon.

Binder - Does he have Radar or something like that? If so, Nox is in trouble. If not, he won't hit her. She can likely take him in HTH.

Blackstar - Her Entangle doesn't stop Desolid, and he's strong enough to break free anyhow. At most she keeps him busy, given his lower SPD, but she can't really put him down for the count.

Cyclone - I think he does have Radar or some other tracking sense, which gives him a clear edge. If so, Nox is hosed. If not, he's hosed - flying + being blind = trouble.

Radium - The NND is a problem, but if he doesn't have non-sight senses, he won't hit anyone with it.

Slick - Lots of trouble. Toss the Darkness on him so he can't see where he's going, then she can staff him into KO land.

Thunderbolt - Hard for her to hurt much, can do a lot of damage, but sight-dependent. Pretty even match overall.

 

Diomedes - Diomedes is more a team player and strategist than solo combat god. He can take out Esper in HtH, but so can anyone. He is very effective fighting alongside the others, but is going to have a lot of trouble 1-on-1 vs any of this crew. He can damage most of them due to the Find Weaknes, and a 10d6 thrown billy club is not bad in and of itself, so he's not out of the game by any means, but his low defenses and STUN means the opponents have the edge most of the time in straight-forward HTH. That's why he tries to fight with surprise via Stealth, of course, and that'll give him some wins, though he probably can't take out people like Ogre or the flyers.

 

Peregrine - Flight gives him a major edge vs several here. Esper can take him out with psi, but he can one-punch her with any of his big attacks. He needn't get close to most of these guys, so any of the non-flyers are in a lot of trouble. Stormfront and Thunderbolt are going to be tough, as he is vulnerable to electricity, but I think he has the others pretty well in hand.

 

Valor - Has problems with flyers, but can toe-to toe with Herculan and Ogre no problem. He has OCV/DCV advantage vs. most here. Mental Defense 15 + 50+ STUN = Esper is in trouble, big time. He will easily beat most of the non-flyers much more often than not, despite having less than 20/20 defenses.

 

All in all, I don't think these 350-pointers are getting "slaughtered" by any means, even though many of the opponents listed are worth substantially more points.

[OddHat]

Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks

 

All in all, I don't think these 350-pointers are getting "slaughtered" by any means, even though many of the opponents listed are worth substantially more points.

 

Agreed. It sounds like you have a well designed team, one that should do well against most villain teams desiged to face lower point value characters.