DEX is used too much

[Trencher]

Re: DEX is used too much

 

I have split dex into agility for dcv and dexterity for ocv in my houseruled campain. The cost remains the same for both dex and agi. It works because it makes charcters more expensive and because it creates more diversety.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: DEX is used too much

 

I have split dex into agility for dcv and dexterity for ocv in my houseruled campain. The cost remains the same for both dex and agi. It works because it makes charcters more expensive and because it creates more diversety.

 

hmmm...9 points for +3 Agility or 5 points for 1 combat skill level to add 1 to DCV. Decisions, decisions...

 

Might be more of a choice if I had a lot of agility-based skills (and for whichever stat feeds my SPD), but for a pure combat monster, I'd pay 10 points for 2 5 point skill levels (1 in OCV and 1 in DCV) before I'd pay 18 (or 15, or 12, after Speed Rebate) for +3 Agility and +3 Dex.

 

I suppose it will promote diversity, since I could decide I want to be a really good shot and pump all my points into OCV, or a really poor one and pump them into DCV.

[Trencher]

Re: DEX is used too much

 

Most campains have a maximum on how much your total cv can be. That is why the players in my campain always bought dex instead of skill levels.

[Markdoc]

Re: DEX is used too much

 

That's why I DON'T have a cap on CV (and probably why I have never had a problem with DEX).

 

I must admit to limited sympathy for GMs that change some important aspects of the system and then complain that the system no longer works properly.

 

cheers, Mark

[Legendsmiths]

Re: DEX is used too much

 

Instead of assuming that it is broken, why not assume that fighters are broken in d20? Taking that another step, suggest that non-agility based characters do the following:

 

Lack of Agility: -1 to all Agility skills (-5 Points)

 

This is simply a negative skill level (and covered by the rules). Instead of trying to reduce a character's DEX this would allow a fighter to be stronger or tougher.

 

Example:

 

Thief spends 30 pts on DEX to get a DEX of 20 (and CV of 7 and SPD of 3)

Fighter spends 30 pts on DEX to get the same but takes -2 to all Agility skills (giving him a DEXroll of 11- just like an average man). He then spends those 10 pts on +2 w/Hand to Hand.

 

Assuming that Thief puts most of his points into Thief skills and a Fighter puts them in to STR and toughness, the Fighter will be a better fighter.

 

What you have just done is correct the problem without altering any of the fundamentals. All character write-ups are still accurate. You can also easily adjust characters on the fly by swapping 1 to 2 pts off the DEX roll for HtH or Ranged Combat. You now have a fighter who cannot perform acrobatics or sleight of hand any better than the average guy, but who is a much better fighter. His high DEX represents his reflexes, speed, and precision in combat but you have now eliminated the maneuver bonus.

 

If you were making a more modest fighter, you could buy DEX 14 for a net of 3 pts (including the SPEED and Lack of Agility). Not too bad.

[Steve Long]

Re: DEX is used too much

 

I haven't read through the thread, so maybe someone else has recommended this, but my HEROglyphs column in Digital Hero #15 has an optional rules system that splits DEX into three Characteristics. It's just rules tinkering for fun -- I certainly don't think it's necessary to correct a "weakness" in the rules -- but you might enjoy reading it if that's a change you want to make in your campaign.

[Old Man]

Re: DEX is used too much

 

Good suggestion Mudpyr8. I never really thought of that.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: DEX is used too much

 

Man, you guys buy into the stereotypes so fast.

 

Who says a thief needs a high Dex? D&D says so, that's who. Where does it say you need a high Dex in Hero? Nowhere. It's cheaper to buy your Stealth and Sleight of Hand skills up with +2 to thief skills.

 

Dex is for kicking ass. That's it. Don't confuse what it is in other systems. Dex = going first, hitting often, not getting hit. That's what it does. Oh, it also adds to a handful of skills. And why aren't you buying your fighters with a high Dex??? Just because he's big and clumsy doesn't mean he doesn't move fast.

[Alibear]

Re: DEX is used too much

 

I've got to agree with C. Instead of lots of dex buy 3point skill levels for three related skills.

 

3 skill levels with Climbing, Breakfall & Stealth would be points well spent instead just piling it into Dex.

My first reaction was to say don't buy any Weapon familiarities as someone else already reccomeded.

[Dauntless]

Re: DEX is used too much

 

I pretty much agree with taxboy here.

 

In my own home grown system, I've created Attributes with sub-attributes. For those that want simplicity, they can just use the base Attribute. But if they want to be more precise, they can use the more specific sub-attributes.

 

For example, I've divided Dexterity and Speed into two main Attributes; Kinesthetics, and Neuromotor Control (or NMC for short). In turn, Kinesthetics is divided into Agility (whole body balance and awareness), and Coordination (the ability to control the limbs). NMC in turn is divided into Force (how much force your muscles can generate...what most games solely consider as Strength) and Power (how quickly you can fire your muscle fibers). Speed and Strength in my game are actually derived secondary attributes based on NMC and the character's Size (height and weight), and Fitness (Health and Constitution).

 

All in all, my game has 8 primary Attributes, and therefore 16 sub-attributes, and there are also 5 derived secondary attributes. Not to mention 5 Psyche traits and at least 3 Principles. Why so many attributes? I personally happen to feel my system is the most well-defined of any game system out there in that it tends to mitigate the problem where one attribute dominates a game system (which is unfortunately common in too many game systems). It also allows for the creation of characters which are otherwise impossible or require some odd kludges to create (such as the Hero system). For example, in my system, it's very easy and totally self-contained to create a character like Bruce Lee who isn't strong in the sense that he can lift a lot of weight through having a low Force sub-attribute, but he can do a lot of damage by having a high Power. Conversely, you can model a bodybuilder who can lift a lot of weight, but who can't generate the same amount of Force over the same amount of time (pound for pound, a gymnast will do more damage than a bodybuilder because, in physics terms, even though a bodybuilder can do more work, how much force you can generate per unit time, which is my definition of power, is the most important factor in determining blunt damage). Or you can create a magician with amazing hand-eye coordination, but who's no faster than a runner, or you can create an acrobat that can't pick a lock.

 

I can hear some say that you can do the same by having combat skill levels or lightning reflexes do the same, but really, these things only modify a more limited set of circumstances. Maybe I can make my weaker STR martial artist do more damage by giving him combat skill levels to add to DC, but then you confine yourself to only addressing the combat side of things. The Hero method still doesn't solve the SPD vs. Reflexes problem (there's a difference between how quickly you can react to an event versus how quickly you can physically move). If you want your martial artist to jump really high....well in Hero, that's a STR based thing (which in real life, is based on a number of factors, the most important being how much Power you can generate in relation to your bodyweight). In my system, all this stuff is handled elegantly and without needing the overhead burden of stuff like CSL's or advantages like Lightning Reflexes. So what at first may appear to be a system overly burdened with attributes is in the long run more simple and elegant. Moreover, it does away with the attribute overuse problem.

 

My suggestion is to do what I did, and tinker around with the Attribute system for Hero. You bought the game, so it's yours to play around with in whatever way you want It's not like a holy book that's inviolate, and I've never understood people who feel like it's sacrilege to adapt, modify and tinker around with an established game system to make it play the way you want it to.

[Eosin]

Re: DEX is used too much

 

Speaking of math and effiency nothing gets you more bang for the buck than DEX - who needs to buy levels when you can pump the DEX.

 

30 points in DEX nets you the following:

+1 SPD (10 points)

+4 OCV (20 points)

+4 DCV (20 points)

+2 to all DEX based skills (10 Points)

+10 to Inish (?)

 

You get double the return for your character points. If you want to figure out how to handle DEX inflation the very first thing that you have to do is be honest about the cost-to-benefit ratio.

 

The easiest solution is to make DEX 10 the NCM for the campaign - that will at least level the playing field so that DEX and skill levels come out with some equity.

 

While, you can split it out what you end up with is a mess that trickles down through the whole game. You have to get/design a new character sheet, you have to figure out which DEX based skills are going to be covered by the new skill, you have to figure out something for SPD, and another thing for inish ---- all of which will lead to misunderstandings at the table until the whole group groks your new rules. God forbid that you bring a new player into the game and then have to start all over.

 

K.I.S.S. - If it is a problem in your game then just double or triple the cost.

 

That sounds much snarkier than it should - this post is certified snark free.

 

[Spence]

Re: DEX is used too much

 

I haven't had much time for the boards lately and haven't read this thread all the way through. In all of my Heroic games where we had a problem with characteristics like the one you are pointing out with Dex, our solution was to cap (or limit) the raw characteristic to what we thought would be appropriate and then purchase the additional characteristic points as a limited skill. There was a write up done by Killershrike? (I think) for Fantasy Hero that is really really good and I think would give you many good ideas. I guess I should hunt down the site again, my links didn't survive the last time my computer crashed.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: DEX is used too much

 

The only problem I see with a cost-benefit analysis is that the point costs for skills and such are not meant to be equitable.

 

If you did the same analysis on 10 pt skill levels you'd arrive at a similar conclusion. Or 5 pt levels even. Relative to stats, perhaps not (+5 INT = 1 5 pt Intellect Skill level), but relative to the skills it does (how many Intellect skills are there, including KS, SS, PS, etc.?).

 

There are always efficient ways to buy things, some moreso than others, all relative to the character concept.

 

DEX costs what it costs and has all the benefits it does. Is it broken? I don't think so. You can easily find ways to redirect those points to reflect your character concept (negative skill levels, no figured characteristics, etc.). That just sets the baseline. Characters that lower their abilities relative to the baseline can excel in other areas (my Negative Skill Level example).

 

DEX is easy to buy, which is why we do it, but that doesn't mean it's the best route to take.

[Acid_Crash]

Re: DEX is used too much

 

I pretty much agree with taxboy here.

 

In my own home grown system, I've created Attributes with sub-attributes. For those that want simplicity, they can just use the base Attribute. But if they want to be more precise, they can use the more specific sub-attributes.

 

For example, I've divided Dexterity and Speed into two main Attributes; Kinesthetics, and Neuromotor Control (or NMC for short). In turn, Kinesthetics is divided into Agility (whole body balance and awareness), and Coordination (the ability to control the limbs). NMC in turn is divided into Force (how much force your muscles can generate...what most games solely consider as Strength) and Power (how quickly you can fire your muscle fibers). Speed and Strength in my game are actually derived secondary attributes based on NMC and the character's Size (height and weight), and Fitness (Health and Constitution).

 

All in all, my game has 8 primary Attributes, and therefore 16 sub-attributes, and there are also 5 derived secondary attributes. Not to mention 5 Psyche traits and at least 3 Principles. Why so many attributes? I personally happen to feel my system is the most well-defined of any game system out there in that it tends to mitigate the problem where one attribute dominates a game system (which is unfortunately common in too many game systems). It also allows for the creation of characters which are otherwise impossible or require some odd kludges to create (such as the Hero system). For example, in my system, it's very easy and totally self-contained to create a character like Bruce Lee who isn't strong in the sense that he can lift a lot of weight through having a low Force sub-attribute, but he can do a lot of damage by having a high Power. Conversely, you can model a bodybuilder who can lift a lot of weight, but who can't generate the same amount of Force over the same amount of time (pound for pound, a gymnast will do more damage than a bodybuilder because, in physics terms, even though a bodybuilder can do more work, how much force you can generate per unit time, which is my definition of power, is the most important factor in determining blunt damage). Or you can create a magician with amazing hand-eye coordination, but who's no faster than a runner, or you can create an acrobat that can't pick a lock.

 

I can hear some say that you can do the same by having combat skill levels or lightning reflexes do the same, but really, these things only modify a more limited set of circumstances. Maybe I can make my weaker STR martial artist do more damage by giving him combat skill levels to add to DC, but then you confine yourself to only addressing the combat side of things. The Hero method still doesn't solve the SPD vs. Reflexes problem (there's a difference between how quickly you can react to an event versus how quickly you can physically move). If you want your martial artist to jump really high....well in Hero, that's a STR based thing (which in real life, is based on a number of factors, the most important being how much Power you can generate in relation to your bodyweight). In my system, all this stuff is handled elegantly and without needing the overhead burden of stuff like CSL's or advantages like Lightning Reflexes. So what at first may appear to be a system overly burdened with attributes is in the long run more simple and elegant. Moreover, it does away with the attribute overuse problem.

 

My suggestion is to do what I did, and tinker around with the Attribute system for Hero. You bought the game, so it's yours to play around with in whatever way you want It's not like a holy book that's inviolate, and I've never understood people who feel like it's sacrilege to adapt, modify and tinker around with an established game system to make it play the way you want it to.

 

Any chance of getting a copy of this from you?

[Trencher]

Re: DEX is used too much

 

I must admit to limited sympathy for GMs that change some important aspects of the system and then complain that the system no longer works properly.

What do you mean?

[Markdoc]

Re: DEX is used too much

 

What do you mean?

 

Well, if you set a cap on CV - to take the example given - then it makes DEX far more cost effective, since DEX gives bonuses to all sorts of things. In contrast, although they only apply to a limited subset of things, the prime advantage of levels is that they are cheap. But if CV is capped at 10 (say), then the fact that you can buy 6 levels in OCV for 12 points is pretty irrelevant - odds are, you'll never be allowed them. You'd be better off buying 4 points of DEX instead.

 

So the problem is essentially "Yeah, I changed the rules to make DEX really cost-effective and now people are buying lots of DEX!"

 

My response is "Well, what did you expect?"

 

It's not just DEX - you can change the Hero system lots of ways, but like any system, you have to be aware that changing something also changes everything connected to it.

 

cheers, Mark

[Trencher]

Re: DEX is used too much

 

Cap on cv is straight out of the rulebook.

In anycase I don't see any problem with it and I certanly do not have any problem with my house rules. I am sorry if I gave the wrong impression.