Oihid

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

It is, until the Monkey Psychic buys 2 point levels with his Ego Blast too. As a general defence to mental attack though, it is far more effective than mental defence.

 

Not DECV. Just actual bonuses to Ego Roll. So your 13 Ego character with +5 to Ego rolls for 10 pts would have a 17- on Breakout attempts, making it ridiculously easy to break most mental effects.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

Yeah, I don't kjnow why Superman gets out of bed in the morning, what with the Kryptonite thing, and Magic cutting right through his defenses. He's really not qualified to adventure.

 

 

 

This comes down to campaign style, more than anything else. If you routinely throw around 10d6 KA's, players are forced to defend themselves (ie buy rDEF) or die. Realistically, this is the case in Champs now - you never see a character without some resistant defenses.

 

If having a weakness means it is constantly exploited making your character generally ineffective, no one will have a character with a weakness. When it goes from "an interesting flaw which sometimes causes problems" to "the character will be useless pretty much every time", it can simply be written out of the game. I'd rather keep things reasonable, and see a wide variety of characters. My character may be especially vulnerable to mentalists (10 ego, no def), but he has less vulnerable teammates who are more vulnerable in other areas. And my character's flash can hold that enemy mentalist off for a bit in many cases.

 

 

A lot of "campaign style" depends on the power level of the campaign. A character with 6/6 resistant defenses may get away with it when he's facing 3-4d6 RKAs. If he's facing 8-10d6 RKAs as in a higher level campaign, it's suicide. Similarly for mental attacks. A character with no or base level mental defenses might be ok in a 50-60 pt campaign, but when attacks are 100+ pts, it's just suicide.

 

And mentallists are definitely more common in a champions setting than a "once in a blue moon" rarity as you're implying.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

The one official character I can find with OIHID on the majority of his points is Thorn from CKC. His change is either injection or inhalation of some chemicals (he keeps a couple of vials on him at all times), or on a 11- if he's experiencing stress or Enraged.

 

You decide whether this is enough to qualify for OIHID.

[zornwil]

Re: Oihid

 

Incidentally' date=' one very effective character building trick I know of is to buy the base level mental defense to help against Ego Blasts. Then you buy a bunch of 2 pt skill levels with Ego rolls. Now you're spending 2 pts to get the same effect that you would otherwise need 5 pts of mental defense for. +5 to your Ego Rolls costs 10 pts, and it's usually wildly more effective than buying +10 MD. The only time it wouldn't be more effective is if that 10 pts would've made the difference in whether or not the mentallist gets an effect on you in the first place.[/quote']

 

Echoing OddHat, this is cool, and I can see this as in-concept for someone who has great resistance against being controlled but isn't innately mentally-savvy.

 

(EDITED - question was asked and answered)

[zornwil]

Re: Oihid

 

A lot of "campaign style" depends on the power level of the campaign. A character with 6/6 resistant defenses may get away with it when he's facing 3-4d6 RKAs. If he's facing 8-10d6 RKAs as in a higher level campaign, it's suicide. Similarly for mental attacks. A character with no or base level mental defenses might be ok in a 50-60 pt campaign, but when attacks are 100+ pts, it's just suicide.

 

And mentallists are definitely more common in a champions setting than a "once in a blue moon" rarity as you're implying.

 

Superman is always a tough example character, I don't like to use him even if he's wholly iconic

 

As you say it's campaign style. A Silver Age game can well allow for Superman to be wholly ridiculously vulnerable to kryptonite, magic, and mental attacks (though I think the latter of these waxed and waned per the story even moreso than the other 2), as the genre convention supports it. A Bronze or similar age with greater verissimilitude and specifically a plethora of supers (and super types) gets hard to control without building some defenses. My game is a mix of styles but there are lots of different types of supers and for a major league super it's hard to survive if you don't have at least some level of defense against different types. Still, that doesn't mean that achilles heels can't peacefully coexist. For example, the shape changer is nigh-invulnerable in many of his guises, but a supernatural attack can trigger his accidental transform into his more-helpless human form.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Oihid

 

Actually kryptonite and superman is a good example.

 

How common is kryptonite?

 

Not very.

 

How often does it come up in the stories?

 

Constantly.

 

Why? Well, presumably the GM is doind his job.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Oihid

 

Whether a Hero ID is limiting depends on whether the GM and/or player is willing to put in the effort to play it properly. It is no more or less restricting than other limitations if it is played/enforced right.

 

I think it is a role playing opportunity so I am going to allow it in my games and build characters using it, but I won't feel at all put out if anyone takes a different view.

I think you're on to something here: Role-playing and how it interacts with OIHID (or any other Limitation).

 

Let's look at the two most obvious OIHID characters in comic books, Captain Marvel and the early Human Torch. (I don't want to debate whether they're "really" OIHID, so let's assume for the sake of this argument that they are. And yes, I know Johnny Storm has much better control of his powers these days.)

 

Why do Captain Marvel and the Human Torch even have powers they have to activate? Why not be just like Superman or Spider-Man and just have superpowers they can use all the time? Surely it's not to save points? They're comic book characters; they have all the abilities their various writers think they need. So a price break on their superpowers is not why Billy Batson or Johnny Storm have these powers only when they shout "Shazam!" or "Flame on!" respectively.

 

I think it's pretty obvious: They want to have a "normal" life; not just a lifetime of superheroing. Captain Marvel is this huge square-jawed mystic warrior; he's about as normal looking as Andre the Giant. The Human Torch is, well, on fire. What kind of private or social life would they have if they had to stay in these superpowered forms 24/7? How could they take in a movie or go on a date? How could Johnny hug or even hold hands with a normal girl if he was flamed on all the time? How could he read a book or play a video game? How could young William Batson finish secondary and high school if he's 6'9" and constantly being attacked by supervillains at school all the time? Clark Kent and Peter Parker can pass for human even with their powers working all the time.

 

OIHID is essentially the penalty one pays for the ability to have a normal life. It's a Limitation for exactly that reason: You wouldn't want to remain in that form all the time because it precludes a normal life, and maybe even a secret identity. (None of the four characters on our team with OIHID can pass for normal in hero ID with the possible exception of Zl'f, and that's only if she remains nearly motionless. Anyone who sees her move will know she's not merely human. They may not even know exactly what's "off" about her, just that "that girl moves strange.") Hence, OIHID is really just another plot hook for the GM. It should not be available to any character who spends most or all of his time in his hero form; or who can easily pass as normal in Hero ID. Nor should any GM allow it to be just free points. It's a Limitation, and that means it causes the character problems just as do IIF or Activation 14-. Because it's a small Limitation; it's effects should be relatively light. Frankly, I doubt either of my GM's would allow me to buy off OIHID even if I wanted Zl'f to be super all the time, which I most certainly don't. Mentor has already indicated he would veto any such attempt.

 

This is role-playing, not a tactical superhero simulation. If I want that, I'll buy an X-Box.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Oihid

 

The one official character I can find with OIHID on the majority of his points is Thorn from CKC. His change is either injection or inhalation of some chemicals (he keeps a couple of vials on him at all times), or on a 11- if he's experiencing stress or Enraged.

 

You decide whether this is enough to qualify for OIHID.

It seems fair since a normal psych ward would be able to handle him quite easily once captured IF they follow 2 rules.

1. Don't give him access to his special chemicals.
   
2. Keep him on a regular schedule of sedatives to offset any chance of him becoming Enraged.
   

It might be necessary to define a maximum length of time that he can stay in his Thorn form before reverting back to normal as well.

 

HM

[Sean Waters]

Re: Oihid

 

Not DECV. Just actual bonuses to Ego Roll. So your 13 Ego character with +5 to Ego rolls for 10 pts would have a 17- on Breakout attempts' date=' making it ridiculously easy to break most mental effects.[/quote']

 

A point well made. Pretty much a mental powers breaker!

 

I can't think of a way around it from the mentalists point of view either...other than just throwing loads of points at the problem.

 

You: EGO 10, EGO roll 11-

 

Mesmeric: 30d6 Mind Control (105 points on average of effect), so he can get you at Ego + 30 with 65 points left to spare, or -13 on your breakout roll.

 

So for 38 points only 1 in 216 mental effects of up to 30d6 work on you. Oh, that would be where he switches his multi power to Ego attack...

[OddHat]

Re: Oihid

 

A point well made. Pretty much a mental powers breaker!

 

I can't think of a way around it from the mentalists point of view either...other than just throwing loads of points at the problem.

 

You: EGO 10, EGO roll 11-

 

Mesmeric: 30d6 Mind Control (105 points on average of effect), so he can get you at Ego + 30 with 65 points left to spare, or -13 on your breakout roll.

 

So for 38 points only 1 in 216 mental effects of up to 30d6 work on you. Oh, that would be where he switches his multi power to Ego attack...

 

He can buy negative skill levels to counter this, or (iirc) move breakout rolls down the time chart (can't remember if that's an advantage or a use of skill levels). Been a while since I read those rulings, but checked both of them at one time or another.

 

Or he can just add a Drain Ego based on ECV to his MP.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

I think you're on to something here: Role-playing and how it interacts with OIHID (or any other Limitation).

 

Let's look at the two most obvious OIHID characters in comic books, Captain Marvel and the early Human Torch. (I don't want to debate whether they're "really" OIHID, so let's assume for the sake of this argument that they are. And yes, I know Johnny Storm has much better control of his powers these days.)

 

Why do Captain Marvel and the Human Torch even have powers they have to activate? Why not be just like Superman or Spider-Man and just have superpowers they can use all the time? Surely it's not to save points? They're comic book characters; they have all the abilities their various writers think they need. So a price break on their superpowers is not why Billy Batson or Johnny Storm have these powers only when they shout "Shazam!" or "Flame on!" respectively.

 

I think it's pretty obvious: They want to have a "normal" life; not just a lifetime of superheroing. Captain Marvel is this huge square-jawed mystic warrior; he's about as normal looking as Andre the Giant. The Human Torch is, well, on fire. What kind of private or social life would they have if they had to stay in these superpowered forms 24/7? How could they take in a movie or go on a date? How could Johnny hug or even hold hands with a normal girl if he was flamed on all the time? How could he read a book or play a video game? How could young William Batson finish secondary and high school if he's 6'9" and constantly being attacked by supervillains at school all the time? Clark Kent and Peter Parker can pass for human even with their powers working all the time.

 

OIHID is essentially the penalty one pays for the ability to have a normal life. It's a Limitation for exactly that reason: You wouldn't want to remain in that form all the time because it precludes a normal life, and maybe even a secret identity. (None of the four characters on our team with OIHID can pass for normal in hero ID with the possible exception of Zl'f, and that's only if she remains nearly motionless. Anyone who sees her move will know she's not merely human. They may not even know exactly what's "off" about her, just that "that girl moves wrong somehow.") Hence, OIHID is really just another plot hook for the GM. It should not be available to any character who spends most or all of his time in his hero form; or who can easily pass as normal in Hero ID. Nor should any GM allow it to be just free points. It's a Limitation, and that means it causes the character problems just as do IIF or Activation 14-. Because it's a small Limitation; it's effects should be relatively light. Frankly, I doubt either of my GM's would allow me to buy off OIHID even if I wanted Zl'f to be super all the time, which I most certainly don't. Mentor has already indicated he would veto any such attempt.

 

This is role-playing, not a tactical superhero simulation. If I want that, I'll buy an X-Box.

 

 

Conversely, if it's advantageous for the character to often be in normal form, then there already exists a rule mechanic for it. Multiform. Someone with a 50 or 100 pt Multiform is almost as vulnerable as someone with a 50-100 pt normal ID, yet with Multiform the most powerful character is 350 or so, not 400+.

 

I fail to see why a character who wants to remain normal most of the time wouldn't use Multiform with appropriate limitations (Full Phase for example) instead of OIHID except that he gets back lots of points for the second choice.

[OddHat]

Re: Oihid

 

Conversely, if it's advantageous for the character to often be in normal form, then there already exists a rule mechanic for it. Multiform. Someone with a 50 or 100 pt Multiform is almost as vulnerable as someone with a 50-100 pt normal ID, yet with Multiform the most powerful character is 350 or so, not 400+.

 

I fail to see why a character who wants to remain normal most of the time wouldn't use Multiform with appropriate limitations (Full Phase for example) instead of OIHID except that he gets back lots of points for the second choice.

 

Right, and Multiform isn't insanely subject to abuse.

 

Dude, give it up already.

[Netzilla]

Re: Oihid

 

Assume a Colossus where he takes a full phase to change.

 

Okay.

 

You're reading the rules wrong. OIHID says specifically at least Full Phase and/or other ways of preventing the change.

 

Which would be why I said, in message 242, "The book requires a minimum of a Full Phase Action (which Colossus violates) and/or a way of preventing the change (which Colossus also violates). " Note the 'and/or'. No, I'm not reading the rules wrong. You even quoted that part.

 

So Colossus could be book legal if the player declares that he can't change in Intense Electromagnetic Fields. Whether the GM allows it is a different story.

 

Okay, to make sure I'm understanding you properly, you're suggesting a Colossus-like character who either takes a Full Phase Action to change IDs or cannot change in Intense Electromagnetic fields, but not both. Is that correct?

 

Assuming the above is the case, then the character is meeting the bare minimum requirements for OIHID. This, as a GM, warns me that this may not be a truly limiting build of OIHID, so I then look at things like the character's SPD, will the character be spending a fair amount of their time in civilian ID, etc. In the case of this pseudo-Colossus (assuming the only change is minimum compliance with OIHID), he's not faster SPD than campaign average and he does have a life outside of superheroing, so he's cool on that front. Also, he doesn't have things like highly-reliable Danger Sense, super-perception or the such.

 

At this point, I'd talk with the player, pointing out that they are only meeting the bare minimum of OIHID and that if I feel that they're abusing this construction, I'll require them to rework the character.

 

Now, how to mess with the character:

 

1. Pseudo-Colossus is in a bank. He fails his Perception Roll, and does not notice the bank robbers taking up strategic positions within the bank (not out of character as he's probably not any more perceptive than the bank guards). By the time he's aware of what's going on, they're already in a position to shoot hostages if they meet resistance. In order to use any of his powers, he has to change forms. If he does change forms, they may well start shooting bank patrons. If his invulnerability didn't have OIHID, he could volunteer himself as a hostage, knowing he'd be in no danger and try to talk the bank robbers into letting the other patrons go. Unfortunately, that is now a far more risky proposition (even if he aborts he still has to take a Full Phase's worth of attacks and if the robbers are super-powered or super-equipped, it's going to hurt). Similarly, if his strength weren't OIHID, he could wait until the robbers ordered everyone to sit/lay down and use the teller counter to sweep the whole room (remember; comic book physics), surprising everyone and taking out anyone still standing. [This works for either version.]

 

2. Grond is rampaging through downtown. Pseudo-Colossus is out dropping off his mail in his normal ID. Before anyone knows what's going on, a car comes hurtling from out of the sky (thrown by Grond from several blocks away), it will squash a group of people waiting at a bus stop. Since Pseudo-Colossus cannot do anything else while changing IDs (such as diving into the path of the falling car to catch it), he has to rely on saving them without using his powers (perhaps a normal ID Presence Attack; or running over in normal form to knock as many out of the way as he can). [This assumes the Full Phase change option.]

 

3. A environmental terrorist super villain is threatening to blow up a hydro-electric dam. Intense electro-magnetic fields everywhere. Pseudo-Colossus can't use his powers there if this is the not in an Electro-Magnetic field option.

 

Not in Electro-Magnetic field version can't rely on his powers against many electricity-based or magnetic-based foes; not to mention being without super-powers in most power plants, near nuclear powered devices, some parts of junk yards (if they have an electro-magnet crane), and the like.

 

Takes a Full Phase version has serious problems in any surprise situation. Especially if someone other than himself is placed in danger.

 

Now that I've gone through all that, I'd like to point out that while your suggestion meets the bare-minimum written requirements of the rules, I don't think it meets the spirit. The construction 'and/or' in the rules, plus Steve Long's rulings on the matter suggest to me that the less time it takes to change IDs the easier it should be prevent the change. I don't think it's meant to be a truly binary situation. If that were the case, the word 'or' by itself would have been sufficient. However, since I hadn't yet brought up 'spirit of the rules', I did not take that into account with the above scenarios and still managed to come up with multiple situations in which the character was limited without their being killed or KOed with no chance to fight back. I'm sure you can see how the character's life would get even more complicated if I decided to apply the 'spirit of the rules' to this discussion.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Oihid

 

Conversely, if it's advantageous for the character to often be in normal form, then there already exists a rule mechanic for it. Multiform. Someone with a 50 or 100 pt Multiform is almost as vulnerable as someone with a 50-100 pt normal ID, yet with Multiform the most powerful character is 350 or so, not 400+.

 

I fail to see why a character who wants to remain normal most of the time wouldn't use Multiform with appropriate limitations (Full Phase for example) instead of OIHID except that he gets back lots of points for the second choice.

 

I agree.

 

But...

 

Limitations and different builds are all a matter of how they are played and run. Take the example from earlier of Little Timmy and his OAF Cosmic Rod. With 5 STR and 8 DEX, taking it off him is a doddle. Mega Morpho with his 35 DEX and 75 STR is a different kettle of fish, but you get the same points for both, and you get to build on more than 350 points. The value of limitations is relative to the other powers your character is built with, but we don't work it out that way.

 

Your multiform idea is great until the character realises that for another 5 points and another magic word he can have a second form, and a whole new 350 points, maybe all on defences and regeneration, so he's only building on 350 points at a time, but he's building with a lot more than 350 points.

 

By the same argument, do away with power frameworks, nasty point giving constructs they are. Actually, in all seriousness, I'm with you on that one...

 

We could get rid of OIHID and do it another way and you'd hardly see the join, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be there for those who want it.

 

Just a thought, but we could all just walk away from this one and claim a moral victory...

[Trebuchet]

Re: Oihid

 

Conversely, if it's advantageous for the character to often be in normal form, then there already exists a rule mechanic for it. Multiform. Someone with a 50 or 100 pt Multiform is almost as vulnerable as someone with a 50-100 pt normal ID, yet with Multiform the most powerful character is 350 or so, not 400+.

 

I fail to see why a character who wants to remain normal most of the time wouldn't use Multiform with appropriate limitations (Full Phase for example) instead of OIHID except that he gets back lots of points for the second choice.

I can't see any valid reason to use a much more complicated game mechanic to simulate a simple concept. That's like using an F-16 to kill cockroaches.

 

Why not just use Full Phase Activation for -¼ if OIHID bothers you so much? Is it just that OIHID seems somehow too open ended or poorly undefined? It certainly isn't in our campaign. I probably have a better idea of what Z'f can and can't do than any of our GMs, and I'll enforce those limitations rigorously because this isn't about being more powerful or more efficient to me. It's about role playing my character.

 

For a player whom I thought was simply trying to rape the rules, I probably wouldn't allow OIHID. There are still plenty of other legal ways to twist the rules. But then, I wouldn't have such a player in my campaign in the first place.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Oihid

 

I can't see any valid reason to use a much more complicated game mechanic to simulate a simple concept. That's like using an F-16 to kill cockroaches.

 

Yeah...so how do you kill cockroaches then?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Oihid

 

[snip]

 

Now that I've gone through all that, I'd like to point out that while your suggestion meets the bare-minimum written requirements of the rules, I don't think it meets the spirit. The construction 'and/or' in the rules, plus Steve Long's rulings on the matter suggest to me that the less time it takes to change IDs the easier it should be prevent the change. I don't think it's meant to be a truly binary situation. If that were the case, the word 'or' by itself would have been sufficient. However, since I hadn't yet brought up 'spirit of the rules', I did not take that into account with the above scenarios and still managed to come up with multiple situations in which the character was limited without their being killed or KOed with no chance to fight back. I'm sure you can see how the character's life would get even more complicated if I decided to apply the 'spirit of the rules' to this discussion.

Great post, Netzilla. Rep for you!

[OddHat]

Re: Oihid

 

I can't see any valid reason to use a much more complicated game mechanic to simulate a simple concept. That's like using an F-16 to kill cockroaches.

 

It's not just a more complicated mechanic; it's a mechanic that is far more open to abuse. It might be the single most easily abused power in the game. Yes, the GM can stop that abuse, but then he can stop any abuse of OIHID as well.

 

Frankly, the suggestion was just silly.

 

(I'm guessing Gary is 100% goofing around at this stage, as he of all people knows what a munchkin's paradise Multiform can be)

[Trebuchet]

Re: Oihid

 

It's not just a more complicated mechanic; it's a mechanic that is far more open to abuse. It might be the single most easily abused power in the game. Yes, the GM can stop that abuse, but then he can stop any abuse of OIHID as well.

 

Frankly, the suggestion was just silly.

 

(I'm guessing Gary is 100% goofing around at this stage, as he of all people knows what a munchkin's paradise Multiform can be)

Well, I didn't want to point that out because we all know how sensitive Gary is to criticism.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Oihid

 

Conversely, if it's advantageous for the character to often be in normal form, then there already exists a rule mechanic for it. Multiform. Someone with a 50 or 100 pt Multiform is almost as vulnerable as someone with a 50-100 pt normal ID, yet with Multiform the most powerful character is 350 or so, not 400+.

 

I fail to see why a character who wants to remain normal most of the time wouldn't use Multiform with appropriate limitations (Full Phase for example) instead of OIHID except that he gets back lots of points for the second choice.

You forgot to add that Multiform also screws the only 1 other form character by effectively halving any application of experience spent on things like skills that should essentially be across the board but aren't according to the rules for multiform.

 

HM

[OddHat]

Re: Oihid

 

You forgot to add that Multiform also screws the only 1 other form character by effectively halving any application of experience spent on things like skills that should essentially be across the board but aren't according to the rules for multiform.

 

HM

 

Kinda; your base form loses 1 XP in 6 to keep the Multiform's point value equal to the base character's. On the other hand, you can always add an Uber Skills Form, to go with your Magic Form and Brick Form and Space Form and ...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Oihid

 

Kinda; your base form loses 1 XP in 6 to keep the Multiform's point value equal to the base character's. On the other hand' date=' you can always add an Uber Skills Form, to go with your Magic Form and Brick Form and Space Form and ...[/quote']

ooops!

 

I guess I am letting my bias againts Multiform show. I like characters that are easy to play and easy to spend experience on since the XP system of HERO is one of the best parts of the game. When making characters for less experienced players, I tend to avoid Multiform, Duplication and even Power Pools* because they tend to complicate the character advancement process IMO.

 

* Say you have a concept of powers that could go through a Power Pool. If you want to increase the number of different powers that you can use at the same time without actually increasing the maximum power (important if there are campaign power limits for example.) of any one power you have to setup some rather complicated limitations. If, on the other hand, you build the concept of powers with the old standard Multipower, you may not have the near infinite adaptability of the Power Pool but you have a very clear way of increasing either the variability (# of slots) or raw power (multipower pool) seperately.

 

HM

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

It's not just a more complicated mechanic; it's a mechanic that is far more open to abuse. It might be the single most easily abused power in the game. Yes, the GM can stop that abuse, but then he can stop any abuse of OIHID as well.

 

Frankly, the suggestion was just silly.

 

(I'm guessing Gary is 100% goofing around at this stage, as he of all people knows what a munchkin's paradise Multiform can be)

 

 

There are lots of powers that vie for most easily abused power in the game.

 

I don't see how Multiform is abusive or complicated if you limit it to a single weak form. The difference is that for a 350 pt character with a 50 pt normal form, it costs the normal form 70 pts (nobody would be silly enough to make the true form to be the 350 pt form and have it pay the 10 pt cost for the normal form). You wind up with a character with a 350 pt form and a 120 pt form of which 70 are merely an accounting entry.

 

This is functionally no different than a character who has OIHID on 300 of his pts, except in the latter case the character is effectively a 425 pt character in his heroic form.

[OddHat]

Re: Oihid

 

ooops!

 

I guess I am letting my bias againts Multiform show.

 

Personally I think Multiform is the most easilly abused power out there, because it combines so easily with every other easily abused power. The only thing that's worse is a Multiform VPP.

 

I do allow it in a few cases. People who can turn into any normal animal + their human minds, Mecha in the right game, a few others. I also think that it has to be very closely watched, especially after you get past just one alternate form. OIHID has to be watched as well, but at worst it will increase the points the character has to play with by a little less than 20%; multiform can give an additional 350 point form for just 5 more points.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

You forgot to add that Multiform also screws the only 1 other form character by effectively halving any application of experience spent on things like skills that should essentially be across the board but aren't according to the rules for multiform.

 

HM

 

 

Not at all. Oddhat is correct that Multiform as it's currently written, is one of the most abusive constructs around.

 

All you have to do is remember that only one form has to pay any of the costs. If you have a weak normal form, just have it pay all the costs and the other form will be just as powerful as anyone else of his points level will be.