Oihid

[Netzilla]

Re: Oihid

 

If you're giving people magical powers of persuasion without a high persuasion roll' date=' then they don't need powers at all. In fact, they don't even need powers at all. My sarcasm meter at work.[/quote']

 

Who said anything about magical powers of persuasion? That's your straw man. Are you claiming that it's against the genre for the hero to succeed at offering himself up as a hostage in place of some or all of the other hostages? Besides, what are the consequences of his failure? Are they severe enough that he shouldn't even try?

 

Every character with FF has force wall in your game?

 

Actually, I asked you if FF character did. Are you actually suggesting a character with no other powers?

 

As for EB, there's no way he can blast everyone before at least some crooks unload. Especially since the crooks have held actions. And if he fires and doesn't take every single crook out (especially since you mentioned that some of them may have superpowers or special equipment), he's responsible for multiple hostage deaths. Real heroic. Although I guess in your campaign you give everyone without OIHID magical powers to automatically hit and take out anyone they shoot at.

 

Never heard of spreading an EB? Also, the crooks don't expect a super and are being taken by surprise, remember? All the hero has to do is wait for the bank robbers to designate who's going to be watching the hostages and gather the hostages into one place (so they're easy to keep an eye on). At that point, a super who has a 12d6 EB and 8 OCV can spread their EB over 4 hexes (8 meters or ~26 feet) to hit the 3 or 4 gunmen (if that many) guarding the hostages. 8 OCV vs. a 4 DCV (less if the gunmen are caught by surprise) needs to roll a 15- (95%) on each hit (roughly 81% to hit all 4). Pretty good odds. With 8 dice remaining, that's an average of 8 Body and 28 Stun. Subtract 2 normal PD and another 8 for flak vests (if they're really well equipped). That's 0 Body and 18 Stun. That's more than enough to Con-stun an exceptional person, and a good chance of 0-1" of knockback, putting the hostage guards well out of position.

 

Is there a chance the EB hero will blow it? Yes. However, OIHID character doesn't even have that option. Last time I checked, even a small chance (which this is well better than) was greater than no chance.

 

By playing in the game, every player has given the GM implicit permission to screw with their character in certain ways. OIHID is no different.

 

Except that it gives a specific way to do this by denying the character access to their powers. In essence, it makes the GM's job easier for this purpose.

 

It's easy to set up a difficult or no win situation for any character type since the GM has full control over the scenarion and scenary.

 

It's just easier to do when certain Limitations and Disadvantages come into play. That's what Limitations and Disadvantages do. Really, your argument could be applied to any Limitation or Dissad.

 

This specific situation would be the same for a super martial artist who gets no limitation on his powers. His only option would be to presence attack the normals or try and knock them away as well.

 

He's also likely faster than the Pseudo-Colossus and probably just as strong (if not stronger) than P-C is in his human form, and thus at least as likely to be able to knock several people out of the way at once. He's actually more likely to succeed as he's got a higher OCV and is thus better at sweeping & move-bys.

 

Or if a brick without OIHID was more than a full move away from the car. Or a mentallist without area effect powers, although the mentallist can presumably order one person in the crowd to leave. None of them get a cost break on their powers.

 

In the first case, you're changing the scenario. You're admitting that this scenario is made harder by the character not having access to his powers due to the OIHID. After all, a 50 STR brick can leap 10 hexes (roughly 65 feet). So, you'd have to move the bus stop pretty far away to keep him from being able to move-through the car by leaping into it. Heck, if he pushed his strength, he could cover 2 more hexes (about 13 more feet). With only a 6 OCV -4 for range, he's still attacking a 0 DCV target and has a 13- to hit. If he has any HtH levels or a higher than 18 Dex, he's odds of hitting are even better. Are you actually suggesting moving the victims nearly 100 feet from the character to start this off?

 

As for the mentalist, he's still got at least the same options as P-C and likely more due to having access to whatever powers he's got. He can probably telepathically warn at least one person there, getting the message across faster and with more surety than a Presence Attack would, giving the people at the bus stop a greater chance of running. Plus, he can do it from even further away.

 

And again it's a "screw with the player" type situation. A situation that's easily setup against any character type regardless of whether they have OIHID or not.

 

This argument could also be made for any Limitation or Disadvantage. Is it "screwing with the player" to have a scenario in which Superman has to deal with both hostages and kryptonite (which saps his powers)? Is it "screwing with the player" to have Tony Stark have to deal with a hostage situation without his armor? Is it "screwing with the player" to have the Thing have to try to rescue someone from a burning building with unstable flooring? Is it "screwing with the player" when the Green Goblin gives Spider Man the choice between saving a truckload of hostages or Gwen Stacy?

 

That's 3 Limitations and Dissads that your argument can be applied to just off the top of my head, plus one scenario that works no matter what Lims and Dissads the character has. If your argument is so broad as to include everything it's not a very useful argument and it certainly doesn't show how OIHID (specifically) is "broken".

 

This is no different than a character with Secret ID who must run away from the area first to change into costume. And I doubt that touring places with EM fields occurs very often for this character.

 

Says who? Does this character expect to run into villainy every second of every day? If so, they've got Psyche Lims as bad as Batman's if not worse, and Batman is known for being nutty and obsessive even among supers. Besides which, does this character never walk near a power station? Or, perhaps, he manages to avoid every single transmitting tower in the world?

 

If the villain has hostages, then most power sets would be useless. Especially if the villain has a high dex or a held action. The character would surrender in this situation and wait until a better opportunity arises.

 

This would be no different from a martial artist who would have to surrender or watch hostages die. Or an energy projector who couldn't guarantee taking down the villain in one shot and can only protect one person in the crowd. Or even a brick without OIHID who can throw himself in front of at most one single person. Everyone else in the area is SOL if the brick decides to fight.

 

Yep, without OIHID, the character has the option to wait for the opportunity for surprise. The character with OIHID doesn't have that option. They either have to give up surprise or go it without their powers. Sounds like he's got fewer options to me.

 

As I pointed out earlier in this thread, almost no characters take Act roll on the majority of their points. They usually take it on just their attacks, not on their defenses, movements, and stats. And if they did take it on everything, there will be enough rolls over the course of a scenario that some of them will fail.

 

The same thing can be done with OIHID. So what? All I was using an Activation Roll for was comparing frequency of how often this Limitation should be taken advantage of.

 

It's the attitude like yours that having your limitation occur 5% of the time to justify a 20% overall cost savings that led to this thread in the first place.

 

Never mind that I even offered to double or triple that frequency. So, by your argument, can I assume that quadrupling it to 20% of the time would be fair? That's 1 out of every 5 changes of ID (which seems a little high to me, but it's your campaign). So, I've still given you enough scenarios to cover 15 changes changes of ID, giving you plenty of time to come up with others. Still doesn't sound like too much of a strain for most GMs. If I can come up with 3 scenarios off the top of my head, surely you can come up with at least as many over 10 to 15 weeks of weekly gaming sessions.

[Netzilla]

Re: Oihid

 

*) The word OR, to me anyways indicates that it might actualy take less time IF there is another way to prevent it. The way it is writen it is the GM's choice to use either the and or the or so assuming a generous GM chooses the or the sentence reads:

 

"the change must take at least a Full Phase, if not longer, or there must be other dificulties or ways to prevent him from changing Identidies"

 

By this reading, a character with a secret ID might qualify as it is assumed he would not be willing to power up around people who did not know (The Secret ID would be a difficulty or way to prevent him from changing Identidies)

 

Well, the 'and' is definately in the description, so I don't agree with this interpretation, but I can see how it could be come to. Unfortunately, Steve Long was unhelpfully non-committal on this when I asked him:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24744

 

Also, since the character has to have 2 separate identities to qualify for OIHID in the first place, I'm not sure that a Secret ID would be enough of a deterrant to allow a less than 1 Full Phase Activation.

[OddHat]

Re: Oihid

 

Unfortunately, Steve Long was unhelpfully non-committal on this when I asked him:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24744

 

Also, since the character has to have 2 separate identities to qualify for OIHID in the first place, I'm not sure that a Secret ID would be enough of a deterrant to allow a less than 1 Full Phase Activation.

 

This is a situation where the GM has to make up his own mind based on his own players and campaign, and where two GMs can legitimately disagree, with neither one being "wrong". Personally, in my own campaigns, I would not allow a character with OIHID to instantly bring up all of their powers and defenses, abort or no abort. However, if another GM allowed this, it's his campaign.

[zornwil]

Re: Oihid

 

20% matters a great deal.

 

Then why aren't there 1/5 modifiers and a 1/5-based graduated scale instead of a 1/4 one? I think it's because 20% does not matter a "great deal" but 25% is where the system's granularity begins.

 

It's a huge difference between a 425 pt character and a 350 pt character.

 

Having played in games with similar disparities and having thought about it, I really don't think so. Can an efficiency expert design a better 425 point character that's very likely to consistently win against a 350 point character? Probably. But I don't think average joes can, and I also think that even 2 good efficiency experts can end up with a situation where the 350 point character can just be better-designed, even if it's less likely.

 

Nope, I just don't agree.

 

One reason to single out OIHID is the fact that it's usually placed on the majority of a character's points. The rule book on page 194 warns against limitations that are too broad and sweeping. Uberpowerful 95% of the time and worthless 5% of the time.

 

The 95% and 5% are YOUR numbers, not the rulebooks and not every campaign's experioence.

 

Power armor also fits this mold, except that most GMs that I know enforce a "no figured characteristics" limitation on any stats purchased with OIF. That goes a long way toward balancing a powered armor character compared to a character built straight.

 

To your larger point, it would be neat to see a HERO efficiency and abuse book.

[zornwil]

Re: Oihid

 

So here you argue for the "poor old martial artist" and the "poor brick", who only has stats and Martial Arts to help him, yet on other threads you aregue that stats like STR and DEX are underpriced and many martial maneuvers are inordinately effective for their point costs.

 

Mentalists do get a price break. Their powers have a built-in "not vs mindless targets". You just don't see it because it's part of the base power (like Indirect is part of teklekinesis). Note that an EB, AVLD (Mental Defense +1 1/2), Line of Sight Range (+1/2), Invisible to all but Mental (+3/4) costs 18.75 points per d6 and still targets based on DEX, not EGO. An ego blast targets Ego, and gets all those advantages. Is "targets Ego instead of Dex" worth a limitation between -3/4 and -1?

 

[ASIDE: Sure, I'm just ranting, but after 20 pages, how much new is there to say? ]

 

The point being that, in my view, characters will be unbalanced not because of one single limitation, power or ability, but because the character as a whole is unbalanced for the campaign environment in which he is placed. Oddhat hits the nail squarely on the head - if it will work in the campaign, make it happen. If it will screw up the campaign, rule against it.

 

You're always taking the easy way out, Hugh.

 

 

[Kristopher]

Re: Oihid

 

This is no different than a character with Secret ID who must run away from the area first to change into costume. And I doubt that touring places with EM fields occurs very often for this character.

 

Depends on what you consider "an EM field" for purposes of a Disad. The typical American home or office is full of EM-emitting devices.

[Kristopher]

Re: Oihid

 

It's the attitude like yours that having your limitation occur 5% of the time to justify a 20% overall cost savings that led to this thread in the first place.

 

Personally, my main concern when running a game isn't making sure that -1/4 limitations are coming up at least 20% of the time.

 

I really don't see players looking back and saying to each other,

 

"Man, that was a good campaign. All the characters were perfectly balanced and no one got away with anything on their Disads or Limitations."

 

"Yeah, it sure was awesome the way my OIHID came up in exactly 20% of all sessions."

 

[JmOz]

Re: Oihid

 

Well, the 'and' is definately in the description, so I don't agree with this interpretation, but I can see how it could be come to. Unfortunately, Steve Long was unhelpfully non-committal on this when I asked him:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24744

 

Also, since the character has to have 2 separate identities to qualify for OIHID in the first place, I'm not sure that a Secret ID would be enough of a deterrant to allow a less than 1 Full Phase Activation.

 

If you see a sentience:

 

"Your hero will have to stop a bank robber, if he/she needs help she can call on the Justice Brigade". You would choose the one that fit your needs, same as the sentence structure above, the sentence can also be read with the and INSTEAD of the or (So a more concervative GM can decide that you need a full phase plus to say a magic word, etc)

 

As for the Secret ID thing, I was just random thinking, but I think it depends on how often the GM is going to put the player into situations where he can not change without blowing his ID...

[Netzilla]

Re: Oihid

 

Depends on what you consider "an EM field" for purposes of a Disad. The typical American home or office is full of EM-emitting devices.

 

Well, to be fair to Gary, the qualifier was for an intense EM field. I doubt your average TV or PC qualifies. I suppose you could apply the "pacemaker" test to it. If the EM field is strong enough to interfere with a pacemaker, it's strong enought to interfere with the character's powers. That may be a bit too much though. I'm not sure as I don't know how many things affect pacemakers.

[Netzilla]

Re: Oihid

 

...same as the sentence structure above' date=' the sentence can also be read with the and INSTEAD of the or (So a more concervative GM can decide that you need a full phase plus to say a magic word, etc)[/quote']

 

See, things like this is why I've never liked the 'and/or' construction. It never adds clairity as there's just too many ways to interpret it. Plus, in most logical constructs, the 'and' option is contained within the bounds of 'or'. What the English language seems to lack is a simple conjoiner that means 'one or the other but not both'. Sorry, not dissagreeing with you, just a side rant.

 

As for the Secret ID thing, I was just random thinking, but I think it depends on how often the GM is going to put the player into situations where he can not change without blowing his ID...

 

Wouldn't work for me. May work for someone else. Fair enough.

[JmOz]

Re: Oihid

 

Side rant

 

Going along with your side rant, IMO the english language does have

 

'one or the other but not both' it is called or

 

What the language lacks is:

 

Choose from this list, you must choose one of, but may choose as many as you want, which is why some people use the and/or construct

[Netzilla]

Re: Oihid

 

Well' date=' to be fair to Gary, the qualifier was for an [i']intense[/i] EM field. I doubt your average TV or PC qualifies. I suppose you could apply the "pacemaker" test to it. If the EM field is strong enough to interfere with a pacemaker, it's strong enought to interfere with the character's powers. That may be a bit too much though. I'm not sure as I don't know how many things affect pacemakers.

 

Okay, to answer my own question, I found the following on a quick web search:

 

From: http://www.affacts.org/Procedures/pacemaker.html

 

Many patients have concerns about using electronic devices if they have a pacemaker. Most electronic are safe to operate if you have a pacemaker. Safe devices include:

 

Safe devices include: Microwave, televisions, radios, CD players, computers, video games, fax machines, toasters, ovens, dishwashers, washing machines, dryers, vacuum cleaners, electric blankets, hair dryers, electric shavers, lawn mowers, snow blowers, and leaf blowers.

 

Cellular phones: when using a cell phone you should keep at least 6 inches between the phone and the pacemaker; you should listen to the phone in opposite ear to where the pacemaker was placed; and you should carry the phone in a pocket on the opposite side of the body from where the pacemaker was placed.

 

Power Tools: power tools are safe to use, but all appliances should be properly grounded.

 

Automobiles: it is safe to operate an automobile, but you should avoid the distributor or spark plug wires of a running car.

 

Things to avoid: certain types of strong electrical and magnetic devices can potentially interfere with the function of your pacemaker. Before being exposed to the following places or devices, be sure to check with your doctor:

 

MRI: the magnet in an MRI scanner may interfere with your pacemaker

Surgery: certain types of surgical tools may interfere with your pacemaker, be sure to tell your doctor that you have a pacemaker before your surgery.

power plants

large generators

arc welding equipment

large magnets

dielectric heaters

TV or radio transmitting towers

electrical power lines

 

That actually doesn't sound like too unreasonable a standard now that I've seen the list. YMMV.

[JmOz]

Re: Oihid

 

One thing not talked about is where the saved points are then spent.

 

If Captain Cool spends 60 points (12d6) on his Ice Beam Power at no limitaions and The Icicle spends 60 with OIHID (15d6) there will be more of a difference than if Icicle spends 48 points OIHID (12d6) and then buys 12 points worth of Background Skills

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Oihid

 

Personally' date=' my main concern when running a game [i']isn't[/i] making sure that -1/4 limitations are coming up at least 20% of the time.

 

I really don't see players looking back and saying to each other,

 

"Man, that was a good campaign. All the characters were perfectly balanced and no one got away with anything on their Disads or Limitations."

 

"Yeah, it sure was awesome the way my OIHID came up in exactly 20% of all sessions."

 

 

As a pretty much 100% GM I have to agree with this one, I mean there is a limit to how many times you can geek someone on their limitaions. Sometimes (read MOST of the time) you let it slide and only trot out the 'limitation gambit' when called for in a story not as a strategic character hobbler.

 

Hawksmoor

[JmOz]

Re: Oihid

 

Ok, if comparing the combat powers of a Multiform vs. OIHID character the Multiform character is going to get shafted for about 25 points assuming that 100 points of the OIHID character's abilities are always available. But, if we build the same character with Multiform and limit the base form to say 250 points (200 + 50 in disads) we still come way out ahead on the total capabilites of the character.

 

Comic Examples and which method would fit better IMO:

 

 

• Iron Man
  
  • OIHID: This has more clear examples in the published rules than any of the others.
    

  [*]The Demon Etrigan

  • Multiform: Since the human form has a distinct personality with access to skills the demon does not.
    

  [*]The Hulk

  • Multiform: The same argument as for The Demon
    

  [*]Thor (early cane carrying version)

  • OIHID: Since his mind was still the same so all skills and talents stay virtually the same with both forms.
    

  [*]Captain Marvel (Shazam!)

  • OIHID: The same argument as early Thor since Captain Marvel still has the mind and therefore ALL the skills and talents of Billy Batson.
    

  [*]Firestorm (early 2 people become 1 version)

  • OIHID: Since the super-form had access to skills from both otherwise normal characters (when not merged) Multiform makes no sense.
    

  [*]The Human Torch + Ice-Man

  • OIHID
    

  [*]Plasmus (Teen Titans villain/monster)

  • Multiform: Since the Plasmus form, like the Hulk, has no recollection of the memories of the otherwise human form.
    

Exception to the rule: Beast Boy from Teen Titans. IMO, he really should be bought with a Variable Power Pool with a very limited class of powers that he can get (only things that real animals can do) since he still keeps his mind in all forms. However, from a practical perspective, Multiform probably seems easier since it is a snap to set a point max for each form and just refer to the Beastiary. The technical problem with this idea is that it does not take into account any combat skill levels that Beast Boy may have learned while training with Robin for example. If each form is a seperate character this makes no sense. This is not to say that I would not just hand-wave such a minor problem but it is a good example of where the Multiform rules are just being used out of ease of play and being made more powerful possibly than the VPP version of the same character.

 

HM

 

IRON MAN: OIHID or OIF (Depends on when we are talking about, at times some of his armor should actualy be activation roll with limited buy off)

 

ETRIGAN: Agreed, Multiform is the way to handle him

 

Hulk: I'll agree with you, but should note that there are times where it would be slightly better to build it as a strait character with no limits at all

 

Thor/Captain Marvel: OIHID, I agree

 

Firestorm is a hard one to make: WHat you actualy need to do is this

 

Ronnie Raymond is the Base character, He has duplication w/Inherent (Dr Stern). Now when he Powers up it should be with a Multiform, the multiform has an AI (Stern), however he does NOT have Multiform so stern goes away (to become the AI)

 

Human Torch/Iceman: No limitations, they just have FF or visible armor

 

Plasmus: I did not think he could transform at all

 

Changling (NEVER BEAST BOY, NEVER): Cosmic VPP: Only for Multiforms into Animals that must be colored green (-1)

[Netzilla]

Re: Oihid

 

Side rant

 

Going along with your side rant, IMO the english language does have

 

'one or the other but not both' it is called or

 

What the language lacks is:

 

Choose from this list, you must choose one of, but may choose as many as you want, which is why some people use the and/or construct

 

I can't agree with that. Take the following:

 

"We will have peas or carrots for dinner."

 

Is this statement true if peas are served? Yes.

Is this statement true if carrots are served? Yes.

Is this statement true if both are served? Yes.

 

For an alternative, consider asking someone this:

 

"Do you want cake or ice cream?"

 

Is it illogical for them to ask, "Can I have both?" If "or" only ever ment 'this or that but not both' there would generally not be such ambiguity.

 

It's a pet peeve I picked up from my grammar professors at university.

 

In any case, if we're to continue this, we should probably take it to PM as this thread's convoluted enough as it is.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

Kindly quote your source for the assertation that OIHID is "usually placed on the majority of a character's points. That's a rather broad brush IMO.

 

Let's take Zl'f for example (I use her because I'm most familiar with her and her data is easily viewable on my Hero Designer):

 

• 105 Characteristics
  76 Skills
  4 Perks
  15 Talents
  53 Martial Arts
  149 Powers
  402 Total Cost

 

Of the 149 points Zl'f spent on Powers, 32 are bought without OIHID. By my calculations only 29% of her total points are bought with OIHID. That's well short of even a plurality, much less a majority. (Of course, if her OIHID powers are stripped from her during the course of a scenario by a GM doing his job, then she has "only" 285 points worth of abilities left to use. The original 4th Edition version of Zl'f was built with 35 fewer total points.) So by just what token are the majority of her points bought OIHID? (BTW, the 20 DEX she purchased with OIHID also has "No Figured Characteristics," the same Limitation you seem find mitigating when applied to powered armor.)

 

Your basic assumption for this entire 20 page rant against OIHID seems to be that it's too overarching, but you still seem to be opeating under the assumption that neither the player nor the GM will enforce the genre. Perhaps it's been that way in your gaming experience. We have no such problem in our campaign. Your entire argument fails to convince because it's overbroad. Yes, there can be problems with OIHID. There can be problems with any aspect of HERO if the GM and players don't do their jobs and play to concept.

 

 

Your problem seems to be that you have a persecution complex where Zl'f is involved.

 

Since Zl'f doesn't have OIHID on the majority of her points, I wouldn't have a problem with her. I have problems with the people who do have it on the majority of their points. Happy now?

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

Who said anything about magical powers of persuasion? That's your straw man. Are you claiming that it's against the genre for the hero to succeed at offering himself up as a hostage in place of some or all of the other hostages? Besides, what are the consequences of his failure? Are they severe enough that he shouldn't even try?

 

 

 

Actually, I asked you if FF character did. Are you actually suggesting a character with no other powers?

 

 

 

Never heard of spreading an EB? Also, the crooks don't expect a super and are being taken by surprise, remember? All the hero has to do is wait for the bank robbers to designate who's going to be watching the hostages and gather the hostages into one place (so they're easy to keep an eye on). At that point, a super who has a 12d6 EB and 8 OCV can spread their EB over 4 hexes (8 meters or ~26 feet) to hit the 3 or 4 gunmen (if that many) guarding the hostages. 8 OCV vs. a 4 DCV (less if the gunmen are caught by surprise) needs to roll a 15- (95%) on each hit (roughly 81% to hit all 4). Pretty good odds. With 8 dice remaining, that's an average of 8 Body and 28 Stun. Subtract 2 normal PD and another 8 for flak vests (if they're really well equipped). That's 0 Body and 18 Stun. That's more than enough to Con-stun an exceptional person, and a good chance of 0-1" of knockback, putting the hostage guards well out of position.

 

Is there a chance the EB hero will blow it? Yes. However, OIHID character doesn't even have that option. Last time I checked, even a small chance (which this is well better than) was greater than no chance.

 

 

 

Except that it gives a specific way to do this by denying the character access to their powers. In essence, it makes the GM's job easier for this purpose.

 

 

 

It's just easier to do when certain Limitations and Disadvantages come into play. That's what Limitations and Disadvantages do. Really, your argument could be applied to any Limitation or Dissad.

 

 

 

He's also likely faster than the Pseudo-Colossus and probably just as strong (if not stronger) than P-C is in his human form, and thus at least as likely to be able to knock several people out of the way at once. He's actually more likely to succeed as he's got a higher OCV and is thus better at sweeping & move-bys.

 

 

 

In the first case, you're changing the scenario. You're admitting that this scenario is made harder by the character not having access to his powers due to the OIHID. After all, a 50 STR brick can leap 10 hexes (roughly 65 feet). So, you'd have to move the bus stop pretty far away to keep him from being able to move-through the car by leaping into it. Heck, if he pushed his strength, he could cover 2 more hexes (about 13 more feet). With only a 6 OCV -4 for range, he's still attacking a 0 DCV target and has a 13- to hit. If he has any HtH levels or a higher than 18 Dex, he's odds of hitting are even better. Are you actually suggesting moving the victims nearly 100 feet from the character to start this off?

 

As for the mentalist, he's still got at least the same options as P-C and likely more due to having access to whatever powers he's got. He can probably telepathically warn at least one person there, getting the message across faster and with more surety than a Presence Attack would, giving the people at the bus stop a greater chance of running. Plus, he can do it from even further away.

 

 

 

This argument could also be made for any Limitation or Disadvantage. Is it "screwing with the player" to have a scenario in which Superman has to deal with both hostages and kryptonite (which saps his powers)? Is it "screwing with the player" to have Tony Stark have to deal with a hostage situation without his armor? Is it "screwing with the player" to have the Thing have to try to rescue someone from a burning building with unstable flooring? Is it "screwing with the player" when the Green Goblin gives Spider Man the choice between saving a truckload of hostages or Gwen Stacy?

 

That's 3 Limitations and Dissads that your argument can be applied to just off the top of my head, plus one scenario that works no matter what Lims and Dissads the character has. If your argument is so broad as to include everything it's not a very useful argument and it certainly doesn't show how OIHID (specifically) is "broken".

 

 

 

Says who? Does this character expect to run into villainy every second of every day? If so, they've got Psyche Lims as bad as Batman's if not worse, and Batman is known for being nutty and obsessive even among supers. Besides which, does this character never walk near a power station? Or, perhaps, he manages to avoid every single transmitting tower in the world?

 

 

 

Yep, without OIHID, the character has the option to wait for the opportunity for surprise. The character with OIHID doesn't have that option. They either have to give up surprise or go it without their powers. Sounds like he's got fewer options to me.

 

 

 

The same thing can be done with OIHID. So what? All I was using an Activation Roll for was comparing frequency of how often this Limitation should be taken advantage of.

 

 

 

Never mind that I even offered to double or triple that frequency. So, by your argument, can I assume that quadrupling it to 20% of the time would be fair? That's 1 out of every 5 changes of ID (which seems a little high to me, but it's your campaign). So, I've still given you enough scenarios to cover 15 changes changes of ID, giving you plenty of time to come up with others. Still doesn't sound like too much of a strain for most GMs. If I can come up with 3 scenarios off the top of my head, surely you can come up with at least as many over 10 to 15 weeks of weekly gaming sessions.

 

 

Rather than going through a long blow by blow rebuttal which seems to be wasting both of our times, let me leave you with this.

 

You seem to feel the "spirit" of the rules should be the major factor in whether something should be allowed. Then why are you ok with OIHID on the majority of a character's points when page 194-195 strongly suggests that limitations that are too sweeping shouldn't be allowed?

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

This is an amazingly circular rules discussion.

 

So, how is actually enforcing the OIHID limit a pain, since presumably that was the characters conception in the first place?

 

(Cue return to start of the discussion)

 

 

How is it a circular discussion?

 

1) The character's conception clearly states that he has one weak form and one strong form. Otherwise he wouldn't have submitted a character with OIHID in the first place.

 

2) The character can be built 2 ways. With OIHID or with multiform with 1 strong and 1 weak form.

 

3) The difference is that OIHID will get you a 425 plus 50 character, while the multiform will get you a 350 plus 50 character.

 

I fail to see how the multiform option is any more of a pain than the OIHID option.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

Then why aren't there 1/5 modifiers and a 1/5-based graduated scale instead of a 1/4 one? I think it's because 20% does not matter a "great deal" but 25% is where the system's granularity begins.

 

You're not understanding the math involved.

 

A 1/4 limitation is a 20% difference, not a 25% difference. Unless you're using the extra points saved and putting a 1/4 limitation on those as well.

 

100 pts with -1/4 would be a 20% savings for 20 pts. If you place a -1/4 on those additional 20 pts, you save 4 more points. If you place a -1/4 on those 4 pts, you save .8 more points and so on. This leads to an infinite series of 20+4+.8+... which collapses to 25 pts. However this only applies if all the extra points saved are run through the same favorable exchange rate.

 

 

 

Having played in games with similar disparities and having thought about it, I really don't think so. Can an efficiency expert design a better 425 point character that's very likely to consistently win against a 350 point character? Probably. But I don't think average joes can, and I also think that even 2 good efficiency experts can end up with a situation where the 350 point character can just be better-designed, even if it's less likely.

 

Nope, I just don't agree.

 

Yours is a very strange campaign if 75 pts difference doesn't matter a whole lot. I can design a pretty good character on 350 pts. Give me 75 more to add on, and my second character will crush my first one.

 

 

The 95% and 5% are YOUR numbers, not the rulebooks and not every campaign's experioence.

 

What's your personal experience?

 

 

To your larger point, it would be neat to see a HERO efficiency and abuse book.

 

I have some ideas...

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

So here you argue for the "poor old martial artist" and the "poor brick"' date=' who only has stats and Martial Arts to help him, yet on other threads you aregue that stats like STR and DEX are underpriced and many martial maneuvers are inordinately effective for their point costs.[/quote']

 

 

I was speaking about one specific situation, not overall efficiency. Speaking about one specific case does not necessarily apply to the general rule.

 

Mentalists do get a price break. Their powers have a built-in "not vs mindless targets". You just don't see it because it's part of the base power (like Indirect is part of teklekinesis). Note that an EB, AVLD (Mental Defense +1 1/2), Line of Sight Range (+1/2), Invisible to all but Mental (+3/4) costs 18.75 points per d6 and still targets based on DEX, not EGO. An ego blast targets Ego, and gets all those advantages. Is "targets Ego instead of Dex" worth a limitation between -3/4 and -1?

 

And again, I was talking about one specific scenario in what you quoted.

 

 

[ASIDE: Sure, I'm just ranting, but after 20 pages, how much new is there to say? ]

 

The point being that, in my view, characters will be unbalanced not because of one single limitation, power or ability, but because the character as a whole is unbalanced for the campaign environment in which he is placed. Oddhat hits the nail squarely on the head - if it will work in the campaign, make it happen. If it will screw up the campaign, rule against it.

 

One of the easiest ways to unbalance a character is one with broad sweeping limitations.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Oihid

 

Is it illogical for them to ask, "Can I have both?" If "or" only ever ment 'this or that but not both' there would generally not be such ambiguity.

 

It's a pet peeve I picked up from my grammar professors at university.

 

In any case, if we're to continue this, we should probably take it to PM as this thread's convoluted enough as it is.

Done! over here

[OddHat]

Re: Oihid

 

How is it a circular discussion?

 

You haven't noticed?

 

1) The character's conception clearly states that he has one weak form and one strong form. Otherwise he wouldn't have submitted a character with OIHID in the first place.

 

True that.

 

2) The character can be built 2 ways. With OIHID or with multiform with 1 strong and 1 weak form.

 

He can be built in a few other ways as well, including just having the Heroic Form be a special effect, in which case he would get no limitation value for it.

 

3) The difference is that OIHID will get you a 425 plus 50 character, while the multiform will get you a 350 plus 50 character.

 

OIHID will get you a character that automatically has all of the skills and disads of the base character (unless tweaked otherwise), is fully within the rules, and is a valid limitation in the hands of a GM who cares at all about making it count. The 425 figure you are throwing around assumes that the character has thrown all but 10 points into OIHID, which is silly. You now say that it is only characters that put too many of their points into OIHID which you object to. That makes it into a problem to be dealt with on a case by case basis by GMs, not a problem with the rules as written.

 

The Multiform meanwhile gets you a player who wants to know why he can't have a 280 point normal form, perfectly legal by the rules, and why he can't boost the power of his multiform after every adventure by feeding XP into the power at 1 point of XP per 5 points added to that form. He'll also want to know why he can't add more forms. You can house rule all of this so as to avoid the problem, but that is more of a pain than just giving him OIHID, or forbiding it, or allowing it as a 0 point limit.

 

As to the whole "this limit is different than all other limits" deal, I disagree with you on that as well. If I were to change the way limits were handled by making them into disads, I'd do the same for all limits. Keeps things simple and more or less balanced as they are.

 

See, I could have just posted a link to page one of the thread?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Oihid

 

See' date=' I could have just posted a link to page one of the thread? [/quote']

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Totally ROFL! and all that....

 

I just click on page one to see what this gripe was geared towards, saw how many pages there were and just now jumped to the last post. How can there be 300+ posts on a thread and still be agruing the same topic? doesn't that violate some natural law of discussion boards? Topics must be derailed every 50-100 posts? Well, maybe it was, but how often does it re-rail itself like that?

[zornwil]

Re: Oihid

 

Rather than going through a long blow by blow rebuttal which seems to be wasting both of our times, let me leave you with this.

 

You seem to feel the "spirit" of the rules should be the major factor in whether something should be allowed. Then why are you ok with OIHID on the majority of a character's points when page 194-195 strongly suggests that limitations that are too sweeping shouldn't be allowed?

Ooh, can I butt in here?

 

Because "too sweeping" <> "majority."

 

Particularly as it's "too" in front of sweeping, and sweeping already suggests a very high incidence.