Oihid

[OddHat]

Re: Oihid

 

There are lots of powers that vie for most easily abused power in the game.

 

I don't see how Multiform is abusive or complicated if you limit it to a single weak form. The difference is that for a 350 pt character with a 50 pt normal form, it costs the normal form 70 pts (nobody would be silly enough to make the true form to be the 350 pt form and have it pay the 10 pt cost for the normal form). You wind up with a character with a 350 pt form and a 120 pt form of which 70 are merely an accounting entry.

 

This is functionally no different than a character who has OIHID on 300 of his pts, except in the latter case the character is effectively a 425 pt character in his heroic form.

 

OIHID is not abusive if the GM bothers to enforce the limit. It's no harder than explaining to Mr.Multiform that he can't hav a 280 point "Normal" form and a 350 point "super" form. In both cases you're making a judgement call and explaining it to the player. In both cases you keep your eye on the player as the game goes on to make sure that he pays for what he gets.

 

And I am sure you could build a 100 point normal that would crush most 350 point Supers.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

Why not just use Full Phase Activation for -¼ if OIHID bothers you so much?

 

 

I already explained this to Hugh. The chief reason being that I don't believe Extra Time is a real limitation when it involves Persistent powers or Stats. There are other reasons as well.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

Kinda; your base form loses 1 XP in 6 to keep the Multiform's point value equal to the base character's. On the other hand' date=' you can always add an Uber Skills Form, to go with your Magic Form and Brick Form and Space Form and ...[/quote']

 

 

The obvious easy fix for this of course, is to have the points spent in Multiform count toward each form's point total. So a character who spends 80 pts in multiforms can't have any single form be above 350-80 = 270 pts. This way there is a real cost for versatility.

[zornwil]

Re: Oihid

 

If we're saying Multiform is somehow less abusable or less prone to cheese than OIHID, I want some of what Gary's smoking...

 

Gary, you said it yourself "if you limit it to a single weak form...". Okay, OIHID is also fine "if you employ the limitation the appropriate level...".

 

In any case, as stated "There are lots of powers that vie for most easily abused power in the game" (emphasis not mine, Gary's).

 

I can fully understand the argument regarding OIHID being enforced properly and the pitfalls of its construct. But that's all it amounts to. It requires no more effort, from anything demonstrated in this thread, to "control" than any of the other dozen+ powers ripe for abuse. This is not the same argument as STR's value or the role of derived characteristics. There is no fix aside from GM diligence, unlike other perceived issues.

 

There's an arguable elegance to eliminating OIHID and requiring Multiform or Extra Time or other approaches. But it's only arguable at best; at worst it's an attempt to derail one of the most time-honored and easy-to-build tropes of heroic fiction.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

Which would be why I said' date=' in message 242, "The book requires a minimum of a Full Phase Action (which Colossus violates) and/or a way of preventing the change (which Colossus also violates). " Note the 'and/or'. No, I'm not reading the rules wrong. You even quoted that part.

 

 

Then why were you emphasizing about "book legal"? And the impression I got was that you thought an OIHID had to have both.

 

 

Okay, to make sure I'm understanding you properly, you're suggesting a Colossus-like character who either takes a Full Phase Action to change IDs or cannot change in Intense Electromagnetic fields, but not both. Is that correct?

 

Assuming the above is the case, then the character is meeting the bare minimum requirements for OIHID. This, as a GM, warns me that this may not be a truly limiting build of OIHID, so I then look at things like the character's SPD, will the character be spending a fair amount of their time in civilian ID, etc. In the case of this pseudo-Colossus (assuming the only change is minimum compliance with OIHID), he's not faster SPD than campaign average and he does have a life outside of superheroing, so he's cool on that front. Also, he doesn't have things like highly-reliable Danger Sense, super-perception or the such.

 

At this point, I'd talk with the player, pointing out that they are only meeting the bare minimum of OIHID and that if I feel that they're abusing this construction, I'll require them to rework the character.

 

The character could have both. It doesn't matter.

 

 

Now, how to mess with the character:

 

1. Pseudo-Colossus is in a bank. He fails his Perception Roll, and does not notice the bank robbers taking up strategic positions within the bank (not out of character as he's probably not any more perceptive than the bank guards). By the time he's aware of what's going on, they're already in a position to shoot hostages if they meet resistance. In order to use any of his powers, he has to change forms. If he does change forms, they may well start shooting bank patrons. If his invulnerability didn't have OIHID, he could volunteer himself as a hostage, knowing he'd be in no danger and try to talk the bank robbers into letting the other patrons go. Unfortunately, that is now a far more risky proposition (even if he aborts he still has to take a Full Phase's worth of attacks and if the robbers are super-powered or super-equipped, it's going to hurt). Similarly, if his strength weren't OIHID, he could wait until the robbers ordered everyone to sit/lay down and use the teller counter to sweep the whole room (remember; comic book physics), surprising everyone and taking out anyone still standing. [This works for either version.]

 

1) He probably couldn't talk the crooks into letting all the extra hostages go. Not without making this situation completely contrived unless he had extraordinary Persuasion skill.

 

2) This scenario would probably be difficult for a normal character without OIHID. A character who depends on Force Fields for example, would get the other patrons shot if he turned on a Force Field. Yes the guy with FF can abort to FF, but it'll hurt if the robbers are super-powered or super-equipped.

 

 

2. Grond is rampaging through downtown. Pseudo-Colossus is out dropping off his mail in his normal ID. Before anyone knows what's going on, a car comes hurtling from out of the sky (thrown by Grond from several blocks away), it will squash a group of people waiting at a bus stop. Since Pseudo-Colossus cannot do anything else while changing IDs (such as diving into the path of the falling car to catch it), he has to rely on saving them without using his powers (perhaps a normal ID Presence Attack; or running over in normal form to knock as many out of the way as he can). [This assumes the Full Phase change option.]

 

This falls into the category of GM screwing with the player. If the GM wanted to screw the player, it wouldn't matter if the character had OIHID or not. He could simply start the scenario with the player out of movement range of the crowd at the start of the scenario and no large objects around. This is functionally the same as your scenario.

 

 

3. A environmental terrorist super villain is threatening to blow up a hydro-electric dam. Intense electro-magnetic fields everywhere. Pseudo-Colossus can't use his powers there if this is the not in an Electro-Magnetic field option.

 

Not in Electro-Magnetic field version can't rely on his powers against many electricity-based or magnetic-based foes; not to mention being without super-powers in most power plants, near nuclear powered devices, some parts of junk yards (if they have an electro-magnet crane), and the like.

 

No, he can't change in an EM field. He can change form in a safe location and then move to the location to fight.

 

 

Takes a Full Phase version has serious problems in any surprise situation. Especially if someone other than himself is placed in danger.

 

Only in that case. Otherwise he aborts.

 

 

Now that I've gone through all that, I'd like to point out that while your suggestion meets the bare-minimum written requirements of the rules, I don't think it meets the spirit. The construction 'and/or' in the rules, plus Steve Long's rulings on the matter suggest to me that the less time it takes to change IDs the easier it should be prevent the change. I don't think it's meant to be a truly binary situation. If that were the case, the word 'or' by itself would have been sufficient. However, since I hadn't yet brought up 'spirit of the rules', I did not take that into account with the above scenarios and still managed to come up with multiple situations in which the character was limited without their being killed or KOed with no chance to fight back. I'm sure you can see how the character's life would get even more complicated if I decided to apply the 'spirit of the rules' to this discussion.

 

 

I'll point out that the character could have both Full Phase, and Can't Change in EM Field. This from what I understand meets your definition of "spirit" of the rules.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

If we're saying Multiform is somehow less abusable or less prone to cheese than OIHID' date=' I want some of what Gary's smoking...[/quote']

 

Did I say that?

 

Gary, you said it yourself "if you limit it to a single weak form...". Okay, OIHID is also fine "if you employ the limitation the appropriate level...".

 

Except that the Multiformer with 1 weak form will be 350 pts and the OIHID will be 425 effective points for functionally the same situation.

 

Remember, the conception we're talking about is a character with a strong form and a weak form. Any talk about the abuses of multiform is extraneous to this, since presumably the conception doesn't include a weak form and many strong forms.

 

 

In any case, as stated "There are lots of powers that vie for most easily abused power in the game" (emphasis not mine, Gary's).

 

I can fully understand the argument regarding OIHID being enforced properly and the pitfalls of its construct. But that's all it amounts to. It requires no more effort, from anything demonstrated in this thread, to "control" than any of the other dozen+ powers ripe for abuse. This is not the same argument as STR's value or the role of derived characteristics. There is no fix aside from GM diligence, unlike other perceived issues.

 

There's an arguable elegance to eliminating OIHID and requiring Multiform or Extra Time or other approaches. But it's only arguable at best; at worst it's an attempt to derail one of the most time-honored and easy-to-build tropes of heroic fiction.

 

 

It's arguable if "one of the most time-honored and easy-to-build tropes of heroic fiction" should be OIHID or Multiform with one weak form. Both can fill the role, but one is far more powerful than the other.

[OddHat]

Re: Oihid

 

It's arguable if "one of the most time-honored and easy-to-build tropes of heroic fiction" should be OIHID or Multiform with one weak form. Both can fill the role' date=' but one is far more powerful than the other.[/quote']

 

Yes, Multiform with one form is far more powerful under the rules. Billy Batson ends up as a 280 point mass of skills, perks, and talents, who can then turn into the combat optimized Big Red Cheese. Effectively the character is a 550+ point monster.

 

Restricting the player to a 50 point Normal form and only one Super form is a major rules tweak, and (IMO) more of a pain in the arse than just enforcing OIHID as a limit in the first place.

[zornwil]

Re: Oihid

 

There's no prohibition (per se) at all on the weaker form being the base foirm, too. Gets very easy to build as OddHat states. I don't know why it wouldn't (necessarily) resolve as all 350 points of Captain Marvel built on Billy Batson's 70 + a smattering of other points. And Captain Marvel could be as likely more, depending on how the GM applies campaign limits, for which there's also no strict prohibitions.

[Netzilla]

Re: Oihid

 

Then why were you emphasizing about "book legal"? And the impression I got was that you thought an OIHID had to have both.

 

Because, up until now your main example of how OIHID is "broken" was an unmodified version of Colossus. I was emphasizing the fact that an unmodified Colossus doesn't meat the book legal requirements for OIHID. You ended up modifying Colossus, so I had though you'd gotten that.

 

in response to bank-robbery scenario:

1) He probably couldn't talk the crooks into letting all the extra hostages go. Not without making this situation completely contrived unless he had extraordinary Persuasion skill.

 

Yes, because we've never seen anything like that in the source material. The good guy never manages to talk the bad guys into taking him hostage instead of the helpless innocents. You got me there. I can't think of a single example of that ever happening. Sorry, perhaps I should turn down my sarcasm meter.

 

2) This scenario would probably be difficult for a normal character without OIHID. A character who depends on Force Fields for example, would get the other patrons shot if he turned on a Force Field. Yes the guy with FF can abort to FF, but it'll hurt if the robbers are super-powered or super-equipped.

 

Is FF his only power? I suppose he doesn't have Force Wall or an Energy Blast he can spread? That would seem like a rather strange character build. Kind of a one-trick pony, eh? If not, depending on how he's built, he may well be able to do all three at once and all while taking the bank robbers by surprise. That will dramatically change the situation. Susan Richards, a FF based character could do it with ease. Heck, even the Human Torch & Reed Richards could pull it off because they can gain the element of surprise.

 

Pseudo-Colossus can't do anything like that because all his superhuman powers are tied up in OIHID. If FF-boy had all his powers tied up in OIHID, he'd in the same boat as Pseudo-Colossus.

 

in response to the thrown car scenario:

This falls into the category of GM screwing with the player. If the GM wanted to screw the player, it wouldn't matter if the character had OIHID or not. He could simply start the scenario with the player out of movement range of the crowd at the start of the scenario and no large objects around. This is functionally the same as your scenario.

 

First, the player consciously chose to take OIHID on their character. That gives the GM permission to "screw with" the character in certain ways. If the player didn't want their character to be placed in situations in which they can't use their powers, they shouldn't have taken OIHID.

 

Second, I gave examples of how, even in his normal form, Pseudo-Colossus has a chance of saving the people at the bus stop. The chance isn't as good, risk-free or easy as if he'd had access to his powers, but that's why OIHID is a limitation. In any case, no, the character & player haven't been made as helpless in this scenario as you seem to think.

 

Third, this kind of situation has happened to Colossus in the comic books. If he'd had to take a Full-Phase Action to change IDs his younger sister would have died in his first ever appearance in the X-Men as she got run over by a runaway tractor. In fact, many supers get placed in this kind of situation. Feel free to change thrown car to simply a driver losing control of his vehicle. How many times has that occurred in the comics/movies/books/tv/etc. Even characters without super powers have managed to save the day in this kind of situation. It's just not as easy as if you were capable of catching the car.

 

in response to hydro-electric power plant dam:

No, he can't change in an EM field. He can change form in a safe location and then move to the location to fight.

 

Debatable as it depends on the special effects. However, you're assuming he starts away from the dam. If he's touring the facility at the time, he's got problems.

 

in response to other people being threatened:

Only in that case. Otherwise he aborts.

 

Certainly, and a super-hero's primary job is not to protect the innocent. Never do we ever see the situation in which a superhero has to make a hard choice involving the saving of innocent lives. Okay, the sarcasm meter's still set a bit high. However, it illustrates my point that innocents being in danger is a very common genre trope. In fact, it's the reason why superheroes exist.

 

It's even fairly common for a superhero to not be able to save everyone at least a couple times in their career because they aren't fast/strong/skilled/smart enough. This is just a variation on that genre trope.

 

I'll point out that the character could have both Full Phase, and Can't Change in EM Field. This from what I understand meets your definition of "spirit" of the rules.

 

It does a lot better, yes. You'll also note that all the scenarios I mentioned now get combined onto the same character. Since this is only a -1/4 Limitation (same value as Activation 15-), it stands to reason that the frequency of things like this happening should be around 5%. So, 3 scenarios should easily do you for roughly 60 occurrences of Pseudo-Colossus changing IDs. Heck, you could even double the frequency (equivalent of 14-; -1/2) and still not strain the GM's imagination. Even tripling it (nearly a 13-; -3/4) would be 15% of the time or about 21 total ID changes and not much of a strain.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Oihid

 

There are lots of powers that vie for most easily abused power in the game.

 

I don't see how Multiform is abusive or complicated if you limit it to a single weak form. The difference is that for a 350 pt character with a 50 pt normal form, it costs the normal form 70 pts (nobody would be silly enough to make the true form to be the 350 pt form and have it pay the 10 pt cost for the normal form). You wind up with a character with a 350 pt form and a 120 pt form of which 70 are merely an accounting entry.

 

This is functionally no different than a character who has OIHID on 300 of his pts, except in the latter case the character is effectively a 425 pt character in his heroic form.

This argument only holds true if there is a hard 350 point limit on power levels. The Multiform character can easily be built with a 450+ superform and a normal form that is less than 250, 90 of which are dedicated to Multiform. Point limits themselves are another issue altogether and I have already posted links to other threads that have discussed some of the issues.

 

HM

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Oihid

 

In any case' date=' as stated "There are [b']lots[/b] of powers that vie for most easily abused power in the game" (emphasis not mine, Gary's).

 

If all powers are equally abusive, then they're balanced against each other, aren't they? Maybe it would be easier to make the non-abusive constructs more powerful to even things up, since there's so many abusive abilities.

[JmOz]

Re: Oihid

 

A few random thoughts:

 

*) The word OR, to me anyways indicates that it might actualy take less time IF there is another way to prevent it. The way it is writen it is the GM's choice to use either the and or the or so assuming a generous GM chooses the or the sentence reads:

 

the change must take at least a Full Phase, if not longer, or there must be other dificulties or ways to prevent him from changing Identidies.

 

By this reading, a character with a secret ID might qualify as it is assumed he would not be willing to power up around people who did not know (The Secret ID would be a difficulty or way to prevent him from changing Identidies)

 

 

*) If I was to build a Captain Marvel Clone in a 350 point game (Assuming no other limitations) I would do it with Multiform

 

Billy Batson 100 points+ 250 Multiform (Incantations/Visible: Extremly Loud)

 

so 375 Active in Multiform, times 5 is a 1875 point character...the only hard part is the 1675 points in disads...But with no limits I can fill it with Villians and DNPC's. Of cource I just became the center of the game, as my villains and my DNPC"s now fill the game

 

Fixed a math error in this section

 

OR

 

I make a character who has a 100 points normaly and another 250 in OIHID powers (+ ~85 points).

 

Which one do you think will cause the most game balance problems?

 

*) If I were to use the rules as written, I would probably require that the OIHID character take a -1/2 worth of lims to change. This would only be on the change itself however (so lets say that a character required a magical amulet to transform, and a command word, that is an IIF and Incantation, if after the transformation the focus was taken it would not matter anymore).

 

*) This is one of those situations that Steve broke a mechanic that worked

[zornwil]

Re: Oihid

 

If all powers are equally abusive' date=' then they're balanced against each other, aren't they? Maybe it would be easier to make the non-abusive constructs more powerful to even things up, since there's so many abusive abilities. [/quote']

You may have something there...

 

I guess that's the thing, though, isn't it, if "lots" of powers are easily abused, is it a bad game? If not, why not, then?

 

With great power comes great responsibility...the same could be said about HERO's flexibility and robustness. It requires a GM who gives more than a casual glance to the PCs, though I would say most good games do.

 

While I appreciate the warnings re OIHID, I think this is one of Gary's weaker contentions in regard to abusive constructs and the system. I don't think it bears up.

 

Total tangent now...many get concerns and fret over the gray area from 1/4 to 1/2. So what if HERO had a 3/8 or 1/3 modifier? A 5/8 or 2/3 modifier? Too "hurt my head" granular? Obviously it makes adding modifiers harder (would have to resolve to increments of 12ths to combine 1/4s and 1/3s, 1/8ths would be easier).

 

I personally like the granularity of 1/8s (I can think of many advs and lims that are +/- 1/8 or 3/8) but it does seem the short road to both argument city and a granularity unsupported in the larger context.

 

And as a follow-up to my own tangent, if HERO isn't granular enough for 1/8 modiifiers, doesn't that reinforce that this is in fact NOT so granular a system that fretting over character designs of 15% or even 20% differences even matters!

[zornwil]

Re: Oihid

 

(snip)

 

*) This is one of those situations that Steve broke a mechanic that worked

 

How so? My reading of 4th is that OIHID "usually" involves some difficulty in changing identity, and it's -1/4.

[OddHat]

Re: Oihid

 

And as a follow-up to my own tangent' date=' [b']if HERO isn't granular enough for 1/8 modiifiers, doesn't that reinforce that this is in fact NOT so granular a system that fretting over character designs of 15% or even 20% differences even matters![/b]

 

These days I don't worry about points at all as a GM, except for the fun of getting what I want under budget. I do worry about whether a player will work in my group, and whether his character will work in my campaign.

 

I do pay closer attention to points when I post characters. I want people to be able to use them.

[JmOz]

Re: Oihid

 

How so? My reading of 4th is that OIHID "usually" involves some difficulty in changing identity' date=' and it's -1/4.[/quote']

 

Just a random thought, it has to do with the idea that the time to transform and other difficulties seems to me were added for 5th edition, or at least greatly expanded...

[zornwil]

Re: Oihid

 

Just a random thought' date=' it has to do with the idea that the time to transform and other difficulties seems to me were added for 5th edition, or at least greatly expanded...[/quote']

Certainly elaborated upon, like so much in 5th. I tend to agree that less is more. I do like the expanded discussions, but I think they should be in a separate book that is actually not the canonical rulebook. IOW, I'd switch the roles of Sidekick (though I would include Damage Reduction and VPP and so on) and the "proper" rulebook.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

Because' date=' up until now your main example of how OIHID is "broken" was an unmodified version of Colossus. I was emphasizing the fact that an unmodified Colossus doesn't meat the book legal requirements for OIHID. You ended up modifying Colossus, so I had though you'd gotten that.[/quote']

 

 

No, that was just a simple example. There are many examples of which I chose one.

 

Yes, because we've never seen anything like that in the source material. The good guy never manages to talk the bad guys into taking him hostage instead of the helpless innocents. You got me there. I can't think of a single example of that ever happening. Sorry, perhaps I should turn down my sarcasm meter.

 

If you're giving people magical powers of persuasion without a high persuasion roll, then they don't need powers at all. In fact, they don't even need powers at all. My sarcasm meter at work.

 

 

Is FF his only power? I suppose he doesn't have Force Wall or an Energy Blast he can spread? That would seem like a rather strange character build. Kind of a one-trick pony, eh? If not, depending on how he's built, he may well be able to do all three at once and all while taking the bank robbers by surprise. That will dramatically change the situation. Susan Richards, a FF based character could do it with ease. Heck, even the Human Torch & Reed Richards could pull it off because they can gain the element of surprise.

 

Pseudo-Colossus can't do anything like that because all his superhuman powers are tied up in OIHID. If FF-boy had all his powers tied up in OIHID, he'd in the same boat as Pseudo-Colossus.

 

Every character with FF has force wall in your game? As for EB, there's no way he can blast everyone before at least some crooks unload. Especially since the crooks have held actions. And if he fires and doesn't take every single crook out (especially since you mentioned that some of them may have superpowers or special equipment), he's responsible for multiple hostage deaths. Real heroic. Although I guess in your campaign you give everyone without OIHID magical powers to automatically hit and take out anyone they shoot at.

 

That sarcasm meter is really useful.

 

 

in response to the thrown car scenario:

 

 

First, the player consciously chose to take OIHID on their character. That gives the GM permission to "screw with" the character in certain ways. If the player didn't want their character to be placed in situations in which they can't use their powers, they shouldn't have taken OIHID.

 

 

By playing in the game, every player has given the GM implicit permission to screw with their character in certain ways. OIHID is no different. It's easy to set up a difficult or no win situation for any character type since the GM has full control over the scenarion and scenary.

 

 

Second, I gave examples of how, even in his normal form, Pseudo-Colossus has a chance of saving the people at the bus stop. The chance isn't as good, risk-free or easy as if he'd had access to his powers, but that's why OIHID is a limitation. In any case, no, the character & player haven't been made as helpless in this scenario as you seem to think.

 

 

This specific situation would be the same for a super martial artist who gets no limitation on his powers. His only option would be to presence attack the normals or try and knock them away as well. Or if a brick without OIHID was more than a full move away from the car. Or a mentallist without area effect powers, although the mentallist can presumably order one person in the crowd to leave. None of them get a cost break on their powers.

 

 

 

Third, this kind of situation has happened to Colossus in the comic books. If he'd had to take a Full-Phase Action to change IDs his younger sister would have died in his first ever appearance in the X-Men as she got run over by a runaway tractor. In fact, many supers get placed in this kind of situation. Feel free to change thrown car to simply a driver losing control of his vehicle. How many times has that occurred in the comics/movies/books/tv/etc. Even characters without super powers have managed to save the day in this kind of situation. It's just not as easy as if you were capable of catching the car.

 

 

And again it's a "screw with the player" type situation. A situation that's easily setup against any character type regardless of whether they have OIHID or not.

 

 

Debatable as it depends on the special effects. However, you're assuming he starts away from the dam. If he's touring the facility at the time, he's got problems.

 

This is no different than a character with Secret ID who must run away from the area first to change into costume. And I doubt that touring places with EM fields occurs very often for this character.

 

 

Certainly, and a super-hero's primary job is not to protect the innocent. Never do we ever see the situation in which a superhero has to make a hard choice involving the saving of innocent lives. Okay, the sarcasm meter's still set a bit high. However, it illustrates my point that innocents being in danger is a very common genre trope. In fact, it's the reason why superheroes exist.

 

It's even fairly common for a superhero to not be able to save everyone at least a couple times in their career because they aren't fast/strong/skilled/smart enough. This is just a variation on that genre trope.

 

If the villain has hostages, then most power sets would be useless. Especially if the villain has a high dex or a held action. The character would surrender in this situation and wait until a better opportunity arises.

 

This would be no different from a martial artist who would have to surrender or watch hostages die. Or an energy projector who couldn't guarantee taking down the villain in one shot and can only protect one person in the crowd. Or even a brick without OIHID who can throw himself in front of at most one single person. Everyone else in the area is SOL if the brick decides to fight.

 

 

 

It does a lot better, yes. You'll also note that all the scenarios I mentioned now get combined onto the same character. Since this is only a -1/4 Limitation (same value as Activation 15-), it stands to reason that the frequency of things like this happening should be around 5%. So, 3 scenarios should easily do you for roughly 60 occurrences of Pseudo-Colossus changing IDs. Heck, you could even double the frequency (equivalent of 14-; -1/2) and still not strain the GM's imagination. Even tripling it (nearly a 13-; -3/4) would be 15% of the time or about 21 total ID changes and not much of a strain.

 

As I pointed out earlier in this thread, almost no characters take Act roll on the majority of their points. They usually take it on just their attacks, not on their defenses, movements, and stats. And if they did take it on everything, there will be enough rolls over the course of a scenario that some of them will fail.

 

It's the attitude like yours that having your limitation occur 5% of the time to justify a 20% overall cost savings that led to this thread in the first place.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

This argument only holds true if there is a hard 350 point limit on power levels. The Multiform character can easily be built with a 450+ superform and a normal form that is less than 250, 90 of which are dedicated to Multiform. Point limits themselves are another issue altogether and I have already posted links to other threads that have discussed some of the issues.

 

HM

 

 

Presumably there is an active point limit at work here. And reasonably the active point limit on multiform for a 350 pt game would be a 350 pt character.

 

If there weren't an active point limit, then the character with OIHID will use his extra 75 pts to buy +6 SPD and 1/2 End cost on his 60 Str.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

And as a follow-up to my own tangent' date=' [b']if HERO isn't granular enough for 1/8 modiifiers, doesn't that reinforce that this is in fact NOT so granular a system that fretting over character designs of 15% or even 20% differences even matters![/b]

 

20% matters a great deal. It's a huge difference between a 425 pt character and a 350 pt character.

 

One reason to single out OIHID is the fact that it's usually placed on the majority of a character's points. The rule book on page 194 warns against limitations that are too broad and sweeping. Uberpowerful 95% of the time and worthless 5% of the time.

 

Power armor also fits this mold, except that most GMs that I know enforce a "no figured characteristics" limitation on any stats purchased with OIF. That goes a long way toward balancing a powered armor character compared to a character built straight.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

Yes, Multiform with one form is far more powerful under the rules. Billy Batson ends up as a 280 point mass of skills, perks, and talents, who can then turn into the combat optimized Big Red Cheese. Effectively the character is a 550+ point monster.

 

Restricting the player to a 50 point Normal form and only one Super form is a major rules tweak, and (IMO) more of a pain in the arse than just enforcing OIHID as a limit in the first place.

 

 

I'm going to use an argument that's been thrown at me a lot in this thread. Conception. If it's the character's conception to have one weak form and one strong form, then the Batson form will be 50-100 pts and the OIHID will be more powerful.

 

I don't see how restricting the player to one weak form and one strong form is a pain, since presumably that's the player's conception in the first place!

[Trebuchet]

Re: Oihid

 

One reason to single out OIHID is the fact that it's usually placed on the majority of a character's points. The rule book on page 194 warns against limitations that are too broad and sweeping. Uberpowerful 95% of the time and worthless 5% of the time.

 

Power armor also fits this mold, except that most GMs that I know enforce a "no figured characteristics" limitation on any stats purchased with OIF. That goes a long way toward balancing a powered armor character compared to a character built straight.

Kindly quote your source for the assertation that OIHID is "usually placed on the majority of a character's points. That's a rather broad brush IMO.

 

Let's take Zl'f for example (I use her because I'm most familiar with her and her data is easily viewable on my Hero Designer):

 

• 105 Characteristics
  76 Skills
  4 Perks
  15 Talents
  53 Martial Arts
  149 Powers
  402 Total Cost

 

Of the 149 points Zl'f spent on Powers, 32 are bought without OIHID. By my calculations only 29% of her total points are bought with OIHID. That's well short of even a plurality, much less a majority. (Of course, if her OIHID powers are stripped from her during the course of a scenario by a GM doing his job, then she has "only" 285 points worth of abilities left to use. The original 4th Edition version of Zl'f was built with 35 fewer total points.) So by just what token are the majority of her points bought OIHID? (BTW, the 20 DEX she purchased with OIHID also has "No Figured Characteristics," the same Limitation you seem find mitigating when applied to powered armor.)

 

Your basic assumption for this entire 20 page rant against OIHID seems to be that it's too overarching, but you still seem to be opeating under the assumption that neither the player nor the GM will enforce the genre. Perhaps it's been that way in your gaming experience. We have no such problem in our campaign. Your entire argument fails to convince because it's overbroad. Yes, there can be problems with OIHID. There can be problems with any aspect of HERO if the GM and players don't do their jobs and play to concept.

[OddHat]

Re: Oihid

 

I'm going to use an argument that's been thrown at me a lot in this thread. Conception. If it's the character's conception to have one weak form and one strong form, then the Batson form will be 50-100 pts and the OIHID will be more powerful.

 

I don't see how restricting the player to one weak form and one strong form is a pain, since presumably that's the player's conception in the first place!

 

This is an amazingly circular rules discussion.

 

So, how is actually enforcing the OIHID limit a pain, since presumably that was the characters conception in the first place?

 

(Cue return to start of the discussion)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Oihid

 

This specific situation would be the same for a super martial artist who gets no limitation on his powers. His only option would be to presence attack the normals or try and knock them away as well. Or if a brick without OIHID was more than a full move away from the car. Or a mentallist without area effect powers' date=' although the mentallist can presumably order one person in the crowd to leave. None of them get a cost break on their powers.[/quote']

 

So here you argue for the "poor old martial artist" and the "poor brick", who only has stats and Martial Arts to help him, yet on other threads you aregue that stats like STR and DEX are underpriced and many martial maneuvers are inordinately effective for their point costs.

 

Mentalists do get a price break. Their powers have a built-in "not vs mindless targets". You just don't see it because it's part of the base power (like Indirect is part of teklekinesis). Note that an EB, AVLD (Mental Defense +1 1/2), Line of Sight Range (+1/2), Invisible to all but Mental (+3/4) costs 18.75 points per d6 and still targets based on DEX, not EGO. An ego blast targets Ego, and gets all those advantages. Is "targets Ego instead of Dex" worth a limitation between -3/4 and -1?

 

[ASIDE: Sure, I'm just ranting, but after 20 pages, how much new is there to say? ]

 

The point being that, in my view, characters will be unbalanced not because of one single limitation, power or ability, but because the character as a whole is unbalanced for the campaign environment in which he is placed. Oddhat hits the nail squarely on the head - if it will work in the campaign, make it happen. If it will screw up the campaign, rule against it.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Oihid

 

This is an amazingly circular rules discussion.

 

So, how is actually enforcing the OIHID limit a pain, since presumeably that was the characters conception in the first place?

 

(Cue return to start of the discussion)

Ok, if comparing the combat powers of a Multiform vs. OIHID character the Multiform character is going to get shafted for about 25 points assuming that 100 points of the OIHID character's abilities are always available. But, if we build the same character with Multiform and limit the base form to say 250 points (200 + 50 in disads) we still come way out ahead on the total capabilites of the character.

 

Comic Examples and which method would fit better IMO:

 

 

• Iron Man
  
  • OIHID: This has more clear examples in the published rules than any of the others.
    

  [*]The Demon Etrigan

  • Multiform: Since the human form has a distinct personality with access to skills the demon does not.
    

  [*]The Hulk

  • Multiform: The same argument as for The Demon
    

  [*]Thor (early cane carrying version)

  • OIHID: Since his mind was still the same so all skills and talents stay virtually the same with both forms.
    

  [*]Captain Marvel (Shazam!)

  • OIHID: The same argument as early Thor since Captain Marvel still has the mind and therefore ALL the skills and talents of Billy Batson.
    

  [*]Firestorm (early 2 people become 1 version)

  • OIHID: Since the super-form had access to skills from both otherwise normal characters (when not merged) Multiform makes no sense.
    

  [*]The Human Torch + Ice-Man

  • OIHID
    

  [*]Plasmus (Teen Titans villain/monster)

  • Multiform: Since the Plasmus form, like the Hulk, has no recollection of the memories of the otherwise human form.
    

Exception to the rule: Beast Boy from Teen Titans. IMO, he really should be bought with a Variable Power Pool with a very limited class of powers that he can get (only things that real animals can do) since he still keeps his mind in all forms. However, from a practical perspective, Multiform probably seems easier since it is a snap to set a point max for each form and just refer to the Beastiary. The technical problem with this idea is that it does not take into account any combat skill levels that Beast Boy may have learned while training with Robin for example. If each form is a seperate character this makes no sense. This is not to say that I would not just hand-wave such a minor problem but it is a good example of where the Multiform rules are just being used out of ease of play and being made more powerful possibly than the VPP version of the same character.

 

HM