My take on the Light Sabre

[Rick]

Are you kidding me...even if you have Jedi in your group one good shot and pop new Jedi character. Trust me I understand why people actually use the NND version in game...it's frickin cool, I'm just a little concerned W/it's outright Lethality.

[Old Man]

ummm...I thought that was the point.

[Rick]

Ummm....yeah sure it's neat story wise but Star Wars isn't all that leathal of a world. So anything I can do to take the edge off possibly one of the most powerful personal weapons in fantasy history so as not to have a revolving door for PC's is the least I can do. Trust me people will be nervous enough about the ap/pen nature of the KA.

[Guest Champsguy]

Waitaminnute...

 

I'm of the camp that says if I didn't see it, you don't got it. I take a minimalist approach to weapons writeups. What have we actually seen lightsabers do?

 

Well, they cut arms off pretty good. (various bar scenes)

They cut through random pieces of the scenery, too. (Empire battle on the little bridge thingy, Jedi battle on the catwalks)

They can cut through AT-AT access hatches. (Empire)

They can be used to deflect laser bursts. (all movies)

They can be used to slowly cut through big blast doors. (Episode Suck... I mean Episode 1... no, I do mean Episode Suck)

 

Now, unless we think that the Star Wars equivalent of a fire escape and a file cabinet have lots of defense, I fail to see where the NND group comes from. This is an energy attack. Where's the justification for an NND? Yes, it cut through the bottom of an AT-AT----probably the weakest section of armor you can find on that thing, and then it was only a small hole for Luke to throw a grenade into. I'd say it's just an energy killing attack, maybe with AP thrown in.

 

I don't see a lightsaber being able to injure Superman.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Rick

Trust me people will be nervous enough about the ap/pen nature of the KA.

 

Why, were they planning on getting hit? Seriously, you'll notice that no one in the Star Wars universe wears armor that actually does anything. That includes the stormtroopers, who are easily slain with one blaster round, or a basketful of grapefruit-sized stones.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Originally posted by Champsguy

I'm of the camp that says if I didn't see it, you don't got it. I take a minimalist approach to weapons writeups. What have we actually seen lightsabers do?... I'd say it's just an energy killing attack, maybe with AP thrown in.

 

I don't see a lightsaber being able to injure Superman.

Okay. If that works in your world, it works in your world. In the West End Games Star Wars game, it was framed as a 5d6 attack -- in short, two or three times more powerful than any blaster out there, a hand-held portable heavy blaster cannon. My personal opinion is that the NND/Limited AVLD works in the genre that it is in.

 

If you want to argue about lightsabers in a superheroic world, feel free. Takes two, though.

[Guest Champsguy]

Originally posted by Wyrm Ouroboros

Okay. If that works in your world, it works in your world. In the West End Games Star Wars game, it was framed as a 5d6 attack -- in short, two or three times more powerful than any blaster out there, a hand-held portable heavy blaster cannon. My personal opinion is that the NND/Limited AVLD works in the genre that it is in.

 

If you want to argue about lightsabers in a superheroic world, feel free. Takes two, though.

 

I'm just wondering what you guys saw that made you think "NND"? None of the people in Star Wars have naturally resistant defenses. The lightsaber didn't do a better job killing stormtroopers than the rocks thrown by Ewoks (actually, I don't think I've ever seen a lightsaber hit a stormtrooper). The only two things even remotely durable that it cut through were the underbelly of the AT-AT and the blast doors in Episode 1.

 

Again, why NND?

[JmOz]

Because the "Expanded Universe" (Books/comics/etc) have repeatedly said it can cut through anything

 

I think a big attack could work, or a small special attack

 

I like the small special better (For actual setting a NND Does Body, for a superhero transplant a AVLD vs ED FF Does Body) as it will allow for some spectacular effects normal weapons will not be able to do (Damage an AT AT, destroy blast doors) while keeping damage reasonable against opponents.

 

It all comes down to the DC's in the end...

 

3d6 RKA vs a 1d6 HKA NND, Does Body would be about the same in my opinion, but if everyone else is using 2d6 RKA as blasters, then I far prefer the lower damage with NND

[Guest Champsguy]

Ahh. The expanded universe stuff. I haven't read any of it, so I can't comment. That's cool.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Champsguy

Well, they cut arms off pretty good. (various bar scenes)

They cut through random pieces of the scenery, too. (Empire battle on the little bridge thingy, Jedi battle on the catwalks)

They can cut through AT-AT access hatches. (Empire)

They can be used to deflect laser bursts. (all movies)

They can be used to slowly cut through big blast doors. (Episode Suck... I mean Episode 1... no, I do mean Episode Suck)

 

I think they wanted to represent that force fields will prevent all damage from lightsabers. If lightsabers could do anything to them, then the lightsaber duel in Episode 1 would have been different. Now that I think about it, that says something about Force powers as well.

 

You forgot to mention that in addition to chopping off arms, lightsabers also chop off heads and cut bodies in half. I also think that keeping the damage low but with certain advantages prevents things like killing tanks and AT-ATs in one or two swings.

[Guest Champsguy]

Originally posted by Shadowpup

I think they wanted to represent that force fields will prevent all damage from lightsabers. If lightsabers could do anything to them, then the lightsaber duel in Episode 1 would have been different. Now that I think about it, that says something about Force powers as well.

 

You forgot to mention that in addition to chopping off arms, lightsabers also chop off heads and cut bodies in half. I also think that keeping the damage low but with certain advantages prevents things like killing tanks and AT-ATs in one or two swings.

 

Of course, they can also graze Darth Vader in the arm and make him go "argh!" and make a little scratch.

 

Well, I know this is going to be highly unpopular, but I can build this thing without resorting to any Advantages at all. We need:

1. Kills humans good

2. Cuts up small scenery good

3. Can do small amounts of damage to big armored things

 

So we've got

5D6 RKA

No Range

Reduced Penetration

Reduced Stun Multiple (that's a real Lim in 5th, right?)

Not vs "force fields"

 

Here's the logic: The big killing attack represents that you can hack through human flesh real easily. If a target has no resistant defense, a lightsaber doesn't seem to have any problem going right through it. You can wave it through soft stuff with no effort. To me, this means high amounts of dice. You could kill Jabba (or most any monster from Fantasy Hero) with two or three swings, and that ain't gonna happen with a little 1D6+1 killing attack with Advantages. Sometimes people only lose a limb, but that's covered by rolling on the hit location chart.

The Reduced Penetration shows how you can have trouble cuttting through AT-ATs and other such big things. Since it's such a big killing attack, it'll still get a little Body through, but you won't be hacking AT-AT legs off (after all, the blade is only so big).

The Reduced Stun Multiple shows that the lightsaber is especially good at doing Body. People aren't ever knocked out by the lightsaber, though it still hurts like a bitch. It's the same as buying some of the dice "only to do Body".

"Force fields" is in quotes (and not capitalized) to represent it's against force field special effects, not necessarily the same as the Force Field power.

 

This will probably be unpopular as hell, but it's the way I'd see a lightsaber.

[MarkusDark]

Originally posted by Shadowpup

You forgot to mention that in addition to chopping off arms, lightsabers also chop off heads and cut bodies in half. I also think that keeping the damage low but with certain advantages prevents things like killing tanks and AT-ATs in one or two swings.

 

I remember in the first edition of the Star Wars RPG that it seemed totally legal according to the rules to put a Jedi into a space suit, strap him to the hull and have him block all incoming fire from opposing ships.

[Rick]

So we've got

5D6 RKA

No Range

Reduced Penetration

Reduced Stun Multiple (that's a real Lim in 5th, right?)

Not vs "force fields"

 

How is that minimal compare to 2d6 nnd does body.

 

When luke hit vader he roled all ones...big deal that's how the rolls go sometime.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

When Luke hit (the first time, Ep. 5 'Empire'), he 'clipped' him. There aren't really any rules for that in Champions, wherein if you hit, you hit, and you do damage. One might suggest that the 'saber Luke was using was only 1d6, and he rolled poorly; whatever. It's accepted that when Luke lopped off Vader's hand (Ep. 6, 'Return'), Vader actually used a Force power to reduce the damage from being killed to being injured/maimed.

 

In the WEG editions of the SW RPG, it's stated that 'blasters are deadly'. If you're hit but damage isn't done (due to your Body roll), you've been clipped (e.g. Leia at the bunker in Ep. 6) but not really hurt. While ChampsGuy suggests that people (e.g. Stormtroopers) in SW don't have Resistant Defenses, my question is this: have we ever seen a Stormtrooper funeral? Stormtroopers weren't killed by one or two rocks. Overborne, yes, but killed? Captured, I expect. The ones that are constantly blasted throughout the movies, well, we never see them being pulled out of their armor, pulses checked, and given the coup. Hell, they might just be knocked out from the STUN, right? Can Joe Stormtrooper (10rPD) take a mid-to-high 2d6 RKA blaster shot with a 5 or 6 on the Stun die and NOT keel over? Hey, he took no body, but he took 10 * 4 = 40 - 10r = 30 stun...

 

In any case. What works in your game. It matters to me; I'm running a web-based Dark-Champions-style campaign right now, and my GMC is a 'Jedi' with a lightsaber. My view: consider what you do to Normals. If you do damage equivalent to the heaviest publically available firearm (i.e. shotguns or .50 rifles, 2½d6 RKAs, or 15 BODY at a shot) to the Normal, then that's about the cap on the attack power. It's a very 'street' campaign, so they aren't going to be running into Superman or Iron Man any time soon.

[James Gillen]

Originally posted by Aroooo

WEG's Star Wars had Light Saber Combat as a Force power. Anyone could wield the weapon, and do its standard damage. But someone trained in the Force could add (part of) their Force skill dice to the weapon's damage.

 

Often wondered how you'd do that in Hero. Maybe weapon as described (with the STR does not add damage), PLUS extra damage classes, up to your ECV level (to represent Force ability) (-1 limitation).

 

Aroooo

 

One way: Define 'Lightsaber Combat' as a Martial Art (like the one given for the Energy Sabre in Star Hero) and allow Extra DCs, reflecting the 'Control' aspect for adding dice.

 

The special effect would be the Jedi's Force ability being focused through the training device of the weapon, since the Jedi use lightsabers to increase their ability in the Force (even though they rarely use the weapons on living targets).

 

This also means that even if a non-Force sensitive gains proficiency in lightsaber, he wouldn't be eligible to learn the Martial Art.

 

JG

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Actually, I'm considering making the lightsaber have a 'Minimum Ego' the way other weapons have a 'Minimum Strength'. OCV penalties if you've got a weak mind ...

[Guest Champsguy]

Originally posted by Wyrm Ouroboros

It's accepted that when Luke lopped off Vader's hand (Ep. 6, 'Return'), Vader actually used a Force power to reduce the damage from being killed to being injured/maimed.

 

It's not accepted by me. I've never heard that before in my life. Several people got limbs chopped off, and we never saw them "die". I see no reason to think that they were all masters of the force.

 

In the WEG editions of the SW RPG, it's stated that 'blasters are deadly'. If you're hit but damage isn't done (due to your Body roll), you've been clipped (e.g. Leia at the bunker in Ep. 6) but not really hurt. While ChampsGuy suggests that people (e.g. Stormtroopers) in SW don't have Resistant Defenses, my question is this: have we ever seen a Stormtrooper funeral? Stormtroopers weren't killed by one or two rocks. Overborne, yes, but killed? Captured, I expect. The ones that are constantly blasted throughout the movies, well, we never see them being pulled out of their armor, pulses checked, and given the coup.b]

 

You could also say that we've never seen that lightsabers are deadly either.

 

I never said Stormtroopers don't have rPD. I said that their armor never seemed effective. Draw your own conclusions as how to model that.

[Guest Champsguy]

Originally posted by Rick

So we've got

5D6 RKA

No Range

Reduced Penetration

Reduced Stun Multiple (that's a real Lim in 5th, right?)

Not vs "force fields"

 

How is that minimal compare to 2d6 nnd does body.

 

When luke hit vader he roled all ones...big deal that's how the rolls go sometime.

 

I was thinking, and decided I should probably drop it to around 4D6.

 

Minimal? Who said I wanted "minimal". I want to simulate what the darn thing does. I want people to stop transposing mechanics for an out-of-print game onto the weapon. A lightsaber is just an energy attack. It shouldn't hurt Superman. That's why I don't want NND on it--because it shouldn't have NND on it.

 

What are you expecting to run into in the Star Wars universe that will require NND Does Body?

[Rick]

"I take a minimalist approach to weapons writeups..."

 

That's a quote from you. Everytime you write up a weapon you "impose" a game mechanic on it, that's the point of writing them up. You are absolutly right in that you can take a tact that there is no Resistant ed in star wars. I've no problemW/that, though a 2-3d6 hka W/out str mod would work as well as 5d6 Rka no range. There comes the problem of the saber cutting clean through a blast door (by it's nature Resistant def) and not even effecting a shield. I don't really want my pc's to have 7-10d6 in melee combat in what is basicly a hero game. So I take the tact that Lightsabers are a lower dice W/higher advantage tallies. NND or ALVD.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Guys, I really don't think there's 'only one right way' to build the damn thing; I give my ideas, Champsguy has his own mindset on it. I disagree on Champsguy's interpretation, including how all the rest of it works, but I've read the other 'Expanded Universe' goodies, I like to think I have a bit more clear idea on 'the way things work'. Still, what's supposed to happen is that it fits YOUR game. This isn't worth a flame war over, really.

 

"There is no emotion, there is peace.

There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.

There is no passion, there is serenity.

There is no death, there is the Force."

-- The Jedi Code

[Rick]

There are many ways of writing up a lightsaber, it just depends on how you like your games to run. My write up (I've yet to post it) in our game is bit complex but it accomplishes what I want, it allows for combat luck to effect the damage, shields to completely rebuff and it slices through everything and one else.

[JmOz]

I agree, and to whit, it also depends on the game, my Star Knight character who essentialy has one needs to be able to damage high end supers, thus it is bought with AVLD: Force Fields F/X

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

To be honest, I'm of two minds about this. I originally designed the lightsaber as an Energy HKA, AP x3 / Penetrating. Then I found the RKA NND version, came up with the RKA Limited AVLD version on my own, and -- reading fun stuff about Mecha and the like -- am wondering which/where, exactly, it's going to work.

 

Question for y'all: how would you handle a 'Limited Impact vs. Size'? The situation I'm thinking about involves the example Mecha on p. 227 of the Star Hero book. The vehicle has 25 BODY and 20 DEF; a 3d6 NND/AVLD RKA is going to tear that apart in two or three swings, (average of 12 straight to Body) while a 3d6 AP RKA is going to take maybe a dozen. You might think that a dozen is a lot, especially with the pilot doing his best to blow you away or stomp on you, but if you're rapid-striking or something, you can rip the huge thing apart in a very short time.

 

While I agree it's cool seeing Luke (Expanded Universe time) deflect mondo blaster bolts from an AT-AT with his lightsaber or hand, a lightsaber can STILL only reach so far when it comes to slicing apart a massive mecha/vehicle/whatever. Should one have a rule for this? A limitation, to reflect the comparative size of the attack vs. the victim? A 'game ruling' on it? Or is there something else, perhaps in the hit locations, that comments on how to handle this sort of thing?

 

---- Edited in ----

 

Thinking about this for a little bit, I recognize that there's a difference between 'slicing it into bitty bitty pieces' and 'disabling the vehicle'. Even with the NND/AVLD lightsaber, it's going to take you some time to slice an 80' battlewagon into scrap metal, but it isn't NECESSARILY going to take you very long to disable the thing. A slice to a foot, and the thing falls over; a couple cuts around the 'power box' (or whatever) and it don't work no more.

 

Thoughts? Comments? Ridicule??

[Rick]

Well unless the lightsaber is cutting into a vital system it's not taking down an AT AT. Qui Gon was cutting the hell out of the blast doors and yet only creating a man sized hole (as per hero rules oddly enough ) and I don't let Jedi deflect attacks that are in all rights explosions or other AE: type powers like the AT-AT blaster. I thought that scene was week. If fact I find almost all of the EU to be complete CRAP!!!!

 

So as in all things hero, you need to, as the GM, think about the SFX and and situation everything is happening in.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Actually, to 'take down' an AT-AT, all you have to do is remove a foot; with only two 'bars' to take out, that's (comparatively) easily done. (And the things blow up when they fall over, remember?) As for the area-effect explosions, well -- rightfully the Jedi's LIGHTSABER deflection should be given the 'Will Not Work Against Heavy Missiles (-1/4)' limitation. You can deflect blaster bolts, bullets, arrows, and knives, but when it comes to massive objects (like TOW missiles or the like) you're going to have to use the Force to 'TK Missile Deflect' it.

 

Otherwise, just like normal Missile Deflection, if the attack is carried in a bullet, a grenade, or a blaster bolt -- which go off when they hit the targetted hex -- you can deflect it before it goes off. Obviously the wise choice would to take an AoE Line starting from the barrel of the weapon -- but that gets expensive, and in all rights is itself a Bad Idea. Not letting the Jedi deflect/reflect such blasts is, well ... seems to me to be antithetical to the entire reason why they're taking a Jedi at all. If you can't deflect blaster bolts, even AT-AT-sized ones, then what's the point? The higher you go on the Star Wars 'size scale', though, the more difficult (or disallowed) it should be. You shouldn't be able to Reflect the Death Star Planet Killer blast, though it'd be cool if you could...

 

Wisely, I'll stay out of the 'X is CRAP!!!!' debate. My own opinions on it are clear: you win some, you lose some.