My take on the Light Sabre

[Guest Champsguy]

Originally posted by Rick

"I take a minimalist approach to weapons writeups..."

 

That's a quote from you. Everytime you write up a weapon you "impose" a game mechanic on it, that's the point of writing them up. You are absolutly right in that you can take a tact that there is no Resistant ed in star wars. I've no problemW/that, though a 2-3d6 hka W/out str mod would work as well as 5d6 Rka no range. There comes the problem of the saber cutting clean through a blast door (by it's nature Resistant def) and not even effecting a shield. I don't really want my pc's to have 7-10d6 in melee combat in what is basicly a hero game. So I take the tact that Lightsabers are a lower dice W/higher advantage tallies. NND or ALVD.

 

Sorry. I've got finals going on this week and next week, so I haven't been responding to stuff.

 

On the "I take a minimalist approach", you're right. I did say that. And, under the context in which I was speaking, I'll stand by it. Yes, in that sense, the gi-normous killing attack is "minimalist".

 

Here's my logic. A small (1 to 2D6) killing attack with boatloads of Advantages will do Body to pretty much whatever it hits. In this sense, it'll cut through AT-ATs, blast doors, and Chewbacca. Okay, no problem.

 

What a lightsaber won't do is cut through Captain America's shield, Thor's hammer, or Superman's forehead (again, in my opinion). The problem with an NND is that it'll cut through those things.

 

What the NND won't do is cut people in half (no bye-bye to Darth Dork in Episode 1). It simply can't do enough Body. Even if you max out, a 2D6 killing attack is still only 12 Body. On average, you're not going to be able to cut people's arms off. That tells me you need a bigger killing attack.

 

Ergo, big killing attack, but without funky Advantages. It's still uber-deadly.

 

It doesn't really matter, and do what's best for your game, by all means. I've just always taken issue with the idea that lightsabers were NND, just because they're "kewl". The special effect does not mandate NND, and neither do the effects that we've seen in the movies. I can't testify to the books, because I never bothered to read them.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Originally posted by Champsguy

 

Hey Champsguy! Long Time, No Argue!

 

 

What the NND won't do is cut people in half (no bye-bye to Darth Dork in Episode 1). It simply can't do enough Body. Even if you max out, a 2D6 killing attack is still only 12 Body. On average, you're not going to be able to cut people's arms off. That tells me you need a bigger killing attack.

 

Actually, if one goes by the Impairing and Disabling rules, 12 body is enough to cut someone in half if they have 12 body or less (A disabling wound). And a vitals hit will do X2 body...thats a maximum of 24 Body. According to the 5E, arms and legs only take about 3-4 body to "disable" (on an average human with Body 10) If a limb is "disabled" with a lightsabre, assume its gone

 

It doesn't really matter, and do what's best for your game, by all means. I've just always taken issue with the idea that lightsabers were NND, just because they're "kewl". The special effect does not mandate NND, and neither do the effects that we've seen in the movies. I can't testify to the books, because I never bothered to read them.

 

This I agree with wholeheartedly. NND or AVLD isn't necesary unless defenses in your Star Wars game are significantly high. Personaly, I use HKA, Double AP, +1 StunX to define my Lightsabres. Nice and simple. (I also allow Str to add to damage, but thats a whole seperate argument). Their main use to the Jedi is as a tool of defense (covered by Missile Deflection and boatloads of defenseive skill levels) and while their offensive capabilities are impressive, they are not irresistable. (as evidenced by Qui Gon having to melt through the blast door, and Luke's Lighsabre "bouncing" off Vaders sholder armor in ESB)

[Rick]

Well if it's an HKA nnd of lets say 2.5d6. Then we add some martial arts DC's It can easily be 3-3.5d6. Thus averaging around 12 body per attack Killing anything hit hits on an average roll, except for PC's, important NPC's and things W/high body. I know things aren't officially dead till they're negative thier body, but I don't pay that much attention to mooks in my games at zero body they're out.

 

And the low damage count is backed up in the movies by Vader taking a shot of the arm, Ob1 not getting chopped in three by Dooku and it taking four hits to put down the Acklay in the areana on Geonosis.

 

Remember, as you once said, no one appears to have Resistant ed in Star Wars, so in melee combat all a big energy killing attack is ends up being, is a big NND.

 

As far as the not cutting through supes or thor....Yeah I really don't see that as a point besides a wierd meta system debate. I, and DOJ apparently as they wrote up the Lightsaber similarly, don't really care about that to much. And you know what, to hell W/it who says that a Lightsaber can't cut through Superman, as far as I know there is know president set for that...and hopefully there never will be .

[Rick]

In a superhero game yeah you should define the Reflection as unable to deflect a heavy missile, every day. I treat Star Wars as a Hero type game, in which case I simply say, NO, when my pc's try to do stuff like that. On their character sheet all it says is 2.5d6 HKA "Lightsaber". They just know not to add their str and that it doesn't do any KB. I don't want them worrying about write ups in star wars, just playing.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Originally posted by Rick

In a superhero game yeah you should define the Reflection as unable to deflect a heavy missile, every day. I treat Star Wars as a Hero type game, in which case I simply say, NO, when my pc's try to do stuff like that. On their character sheet all it says is 2.5d6 HKA "Lightsaber". They just know not to add their str and that it doesn't do any KB. I don't want them worrying about write ups in star wars, just playing.

 

A man after my own heart.

 

I wish more people around here saw things this way...

[Rick]

Maybe it's our San Diego water, beech, clean air (usually clean are atleast) or perfect weather that makes us willing to play a bit more freely NuSoard .

 

Writing stuff up isn't the point for me anymore. Allowing my PC's to be cool W/in the limits of the world I offer them is the point. Sometimes points and rules be damned!!!!

[Old Man]

Anybody ever add in Force Field X PD, X ED, Requires Skill Roll, Only vs Known Attacks, sfx Blocking with Lightsaber

 

We've seen characters block with their sabers but still get knocked back, and block with their sabers and get worn out.

 

Yes, you could say there are blocking rules already in Hero but a good saber duel has both guys attacking and blocking a lot. Unless you just put that down to CV.

[Rick]

Yes I've seen the FF or FW version of the Saber deflection for a full defensive action it works well.

 

I see lightsaber combat as a lot of burning (aborting) to Block. Then someone misses their roll and the fight gets real interesting. So basicly they're manuvering for the advantage while blocking.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Originally posted by Rick

Maybe it's our San Diego water, beech, clean air (usually clean are atleast) or perfect weather that makes us willing to play a bit more freely NuSoard .

 

I understand. I lived in S.D. for 14+ years. Frankly I have no idea why I left in the first place (I'm now 130mi to the north in Hollywood) and I plan to move back around the end of the Summer and get my old group going again. Perhaps we can collaberate in the future...

 

Writing stuff up isn't the point for me anymore. Allowing my PC's to be cool W/in the limits of the world I offer them is the point. Sometimes points and rules be damned!!!!

 

Well...I still love writing stuff up, but I don't sweat the small stuff. As long as I get a close approximation of what I want it to do, its all good to me. And I agree...the main point is to allow the PC's to get away with some flamin cool shizzle. I mean, come on, its all about the fun in the first place.

[Rick]

Hollywood? Bummer man. I was in Fullerton for 2 years recently, now I'm in Carlsbad. I grew up in Santee though.

 

Back to the topic:

 

Well of course we love to write things up, that's half the fun of hero!!! In game though, it's of far less important than the moment, drama and PC enjoyment.

[Pattern Ghost]

Originally posted by NuSoardGraphite

Personaly, I use HKA, Double AP, +1 StunX to define my Lightsabres.

 

I'm not sure I'd add to the StunX, they seem to cauterize the wound, and wasn't that guy in the bar still standing after Obi cut his arm off?

[Rick]

I've often wondered about that myself. Any reasons why +1 stunx guys?

[NuSoardGraphite]

It is my assumption that the +1StunX represents the amount of unbridled Pain that a lightsabre wound causes. Burn wounds are notoriously painful and ache badly long after the wound was inflicted. Can you imagine having a 3' blade of pure fusion beam in your gut?

 

And the guy in the cantina in ANH (and the changeling in AotC) was still standing because a hit to the Hand location is only a X1 stun multiplier...it becomes X2 with the Lightsabre...not enough to knock out the guy.

[Rick]

Then again maul seems barely stunned after being bifrucated.

[Shaun Hendricks]

Just a point of order...

 

For those of you (and this apparently includes the New Star Wars game authors) that feel you need to be a Jedi or have force powers to use a lightsaber: consider that none other than Han Solo picks up Luke's saber and disembowls a Taun-Taun with it. If you have to have a VPP (or other Force package) to use your lightsaber, this wouldn't have worked for Han (unless we agree on Han having some kind of Force package even though he's an avowed Force agnostic). It's my take, based on this single sampling, that a light saber is a stand alone weapon that can be used by anyone. They seem to have a bit of 'back bite' meaning that they have a gyroscopic effect and require STR to use and the harder the material they are cutting through, the more difficult they are to wield due to this effect. If you ask me, I would picture one as an energy version of a "Roto-Zip" saw (go to your local hardware store if you don't know what I'm talking about, or do a Google search on it). I think what the Force allows a Jedi to do is control the weapon better. Also, part of the training is learning how to make a lightsaber, thus said, if only Jedi's know the technique and there is some kind of "Force Battery" that must be charged by the Jedi to give the blade the power, then it would be an END Reserve and it would still work (at least for a while) for a non-Force user and this could also explain Han using the weapon. This is all just theoretical wanderings, I am not George Lucas, and I tend to have my worlds with less backtracking and more solid foundations of concepts than Star Wars (I'm not saying I don't love SW, I do, but man, we're nearing Trek level of backtracking on earlier points here!). Anyway, back to your discussions...

[Rick]

Complaining about a lack of a coherent back story for lightsabers in a Galaxy where spaceship make sounds in space and bank......????

 

Did it ever occur to you that Lightsabers are magic swords and who cares how they work? That: it doesn't detract from their coolness one bit not to know the specs on it. How does a Hyperdrive work, or a repulsor or a blaster. Who cares Star Wars is not science FICTION it's science FANTASY. It's all PFM, 'P'ure 'F'uckin 'M'agic. Now that to me is one of the charms of Star Wars, and wy I love it so dearly. It doesn't worry about the inconsiquential.

[Shaun Hendricks]

Originally posted by Rick

Complaining about a lack of a coherent back story for lightsabers in a Galaxy where spaceship make sounds in space and bank......????

 

Did it ever occur to you that Lightsabers are magic swords and who cares how they work? That: it doesn't detract from their coolness one bit not to know the specs on it. How does a Hyperdrive work, or a repulsor or a blaster. Who cares Star Wars is not science FICTION it's science FANTASY. It's all PFM, 'P'ure (Explicative Deleted) 'M'agic. Now that to me is one of the charms of Star Wars, and wy I love it so dearly. It doesn't worry about the inconsiquential.

 

I'm sorry, did I say something that deserved a response like this? The thread topic spoke for itself. I figured the context and concept of it was fairly apparent from that topic. My post addressed that topic as well as the generalization concept that was being applied by the other posters in the thread. Since I am now being portrayed as some kind of 'idiot' for trying to quantify points regarding a device used, and story continuity, I think I need to respond to your points.

 

Point #1: You supposed that I am 'complaining' about story in a show that doesn't hold true to known physics.

-First: The two have nothing to do with each other. Special Effects and audience belief effects are completely different in concept and scope from a story that should hold true to it's own tenets. Whether or not ships make sounds or change vectors in sweeping motions have ziltch to do with whether or not blue is blue throughout the story.

-Second: There are a few dozen explainations for ships 'banking' like aerofighters in space fiction. Most deal with limiting G forces on crews or equipment designed to protect crews from these G forces. Any halfway decent Trekker can tell you why starships 'bank' in the show. As to sound in space, I think that's fairly obvious. If the soundtrack went dead silent in space combat scenes or external space scenes, people would be bored and disinterested in seeing those scenes. Watching flashes and explosions, action and combat without sound removes your second most important sense from the action, thus disjoining the audience from important scenes. Our theaters tout sound systems in the hundreds of thousands of dollars and they don't do it so the audience can listen to the air conditioners run.

 

Point #2: You assert that nobody cares how something works because it is 'magic'.

-You are addressing a bunch of Hero gamers. Hero is a system whereupon people try to 'figure out' some of the craziest, most minor, underlying principles of how things work. Something COOL like a lightsaber certainly will NOT be tossed into the bin of "PFM"; as you put it. You're insulting nearly everyone here when you insinuate they are idiots for trying to surmise, supposition, and discover possible underlying principles of a object. They do this so they can most accurately portray a device using the rules of the game system.

 

Point #3: Star Wars is Science Fantasy, not Science Fiction.

-That's a very blurry line you're crossing into there. One that Star Hero doesn't help explain much. Any show that inserts elements of actual science into it, can be called Science Fiction. Star Trek would have to qualify as Science Fantasy by your definition as well. Each series has fantasy elements in it, yet neither are hard core science or complete derivations of it. Science Fiction in the broadest sense, covers all Science Fantasy, yet Science Fantasy does not encompass Science Fiction but is subset of it. Having said that, I have to ask the question whether or not it has any relevance what genre the story is in. See my responses to your Point #1 and Point #2 for an explaination of that question. In the end, Hero Gamers want to know all the details, no matter the basis in science fiction or fact. It's a simple desire, so they can 'build'.

 

My intend on the story aspects was to point out that Star Wars is missing in technological and conceptual continuity between it's movies. This is in order to facilitate the greater storyline George Lucas is attempting to tell, but in doing do, it creates problems for Hero System users that are seeking continuity between shows and concepts. Thus were my comments made, and to point out this problem. To which you responded in a highly aggressive manner that was unnecessary, given the context and the fact that I was only pointing out some unmentioned sticky points of building the device.

 

The real questions are: Why are you so worked up over this? Why would you care if people want to know the trivial details? Why vent your anger and rudeness at me, who only added a single blurb in an ongoing conversation? If you like Star Wars so much, you should learn the lessons it's trying to expound: Patience and understanding are the path to peace and self worth. Anger and hatred lead to hurt and more anger and hatred.

 

If you care to reply with tact and some relevant building issues for lightsabers, then I'm sure everyone reading this thread will be more than happy to pay attention to what you have to say. My only request is that you calm down and answer with more civility than contempt for the people involved in this thread.

[Rick]

You know in glancing over your last post (I don't have a lot of time I'm vurrently writing a new piece) I realized that my last responce came off as radly condisending. I apologize, it was not intended as such. I was trying to point out that technical aspects of Star Wars don't do anything for me.

 

I'm sorry for the tone of my lst responce, I can only chalk it up to finals, tomuch work and a lack of sleep.

[AlHazred]

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side."

 

I noticed that noone brought up the idea that Jedi routinely "punch up" their lightsabers' damage/advantages/whatever with their Force Powers. I think some of the concerns people have could be addressed with this one point.

[AnotherSkip]

I also happen to think that perhaps Han Solo was able to once use a light saber does not mean that the Lightsaber is more than a Universal Focus. Your buddies and your enemies can use it too.

 

If Han carried it around he would have to 1. pay for it. 2. Buy off/change the "Does not believe in the force" Psy Lim, due to the use of a symbol of the "Hokey Religion" (unless he was trying to "dispell" the religion with that tool). 3. Find some way to insert it into his character concept.

[Shaun Hendricks]

Originally posted by Rick

You know in glancing over your last post (I don't have a lot of time I'm vurrently writing a new piece) I realized that my last responce came off as radly condisending. I apologize, it was not intended as such. I was trying to point out that technical aspects of Star Wars don't do anything for me.

 

I'm sorry for the tone of my lst responce, I can only chalk it up to finals, tomuch work and a lack of sleep.

 

To quote a Star Wars character: "Apology accepted..." only I'll forego the telekinetic strangle bit... I DON'T have a FORCE power package...

 

Sorry about the "War and Peace" post, it's pretty hideously long... Anyway, I've said enough to fill a thread by myself, I'm bailing out of this one now...

[Jhereg]

Lightsabers

 

I've been running a successful SW campaign for a while. For Lightsabers, I use the following:

 

2d6 HKA: Attack Versus Limited Defense (Power Defense) (+1 1/2), Does BODY (+1), Continuous (+1), Uncontrolled (+1/2), OAF (-1), Independent (-2), No STR Bonus (-1/2), STR Minimum 10 (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4)

 

This makes certain assumptions:

1) A lightsaber ignores most defenses (hence cutting through droids and walker armor like butter). Given time, a lightsaber can cut through anything (it's only the BODY of the object stopping it in the first place). I use AVLD rather than NND because NND implies a reasonably common, completely effective defense. With AVLD a person with Power Defense (an uncommon defense) would have a chance at taking a lightsaber blow. The only people in a heroic campaign with Power Defense would be reasonably powerful Jedi (we saw Vader take a few cuts without major injury).

2) When ignited, a lightsaber blade always does damage (Uncontrolled, and Continuous).

3) STR cannot add damage. It certainly does require STR to wield one (STR Min), but an abundance of STR would not make a deadlier lightsaber, IMHO.

4) A lightsaber is dangerous to the wielder (also represented by the Continuous and Uncontrolled, also possibly a damage shield).

 

We also use a version of the "Lightsaber Combat" as a compound power, including any of these:

CSL's w/ Lightsaber

Missile Deflection/Reflection

Combat Sense

Lightning Reflexes

Rapid Attack

Succor: to increase Lightsaber damage (I also allow Jedi to use their Succor dice as a Suppress [at no cost] to decrease their own lightsaber damage [since a KA normally must be used at full power])

 

Modified with enough Limitations the package is affordable even for beginning Jedi. I suggest things like Requires Skill Roll, Increased END, Extra Time, Side Effects, and Concentration. This lends a beginning Padawan feel, and the Lims can be bought off as the Jedi progresses. I also allow all force powers a -1/2 Limitation to represent the Dark Side's temptation. We do not use Frameworks as many people suggest. I feel they're horribly unbalancing in a heroic game. I think the cost of force powers can be lessened with the proper limitations (to more resemble spells/magic abilities than super powers), and each power should be bought separately, and represent a good chunk of the Jedi's points to preserve balance.

 

The write up we use makes for a very powerful weapon. In the wrong hands, it can be quite unbalancing. But that is, I feel, the idea behind the weapon. My advice for GM's is:

-Keep lightsabers rare.

-Keep your Jedi in check. A real Jedi would not be as quick to hack at someone as PC's tend to be. Overkill/Unnecessary violence should be punished with Dark Side influence.

-Remind PC's how dangerous lightsabers are. After a missed attack or fumble, an occasional 0-OCV roll on one's self or friend instills the proper respect for a deadly weapon.

-Keep your antagonists smart. Anyone who's seen a lightsaber in action knows not to get near one... unless they have skills to match.

 

I hope something in hear is helpful.

[Rick]

Here's mine;

 

Hand killing Attack (Energy): 2.5d6 ALVD (Combat Luck, +1 1/2), Does Body (+1), Reduced end (0end, +1/2) (160 Active points), OAF (-1), Independant (-2), Has no effect on energy shielding (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/2), -1 stunX (-1/2), No Strength to damage (-1/2), Str min (6, -1/2), real weapon (-1/4)....Real points: 24

 

Notes: MArtial arts still adds DC. I have a special DC to add to the Lightsaber so that regular MA don't get out of hand. It is not unbalancing for the game world, Jedi are supposed to be BADASS.

 

This is how it'll will look in my game.

[Jhereg]

Looks good to me. Much more feasible than some suggestions.

[NuSoardGraphite]

You know, a few months ago I got a Star Wars Insider magazine that detailed the various forms of Lightsabre Combat. I immediately wrote up Martial Arts styles based on these various forms. I'll see if I can dig it up and post it in the next day or two...