My take on the Light Sabre

[Nevenall]

Man, I don't know if want to get involved in all this, but I too, have a lightsaber writeup.

 

Light saber: 3d6+1 HKA; Standard Effect (10 Body) -0, ALVD (Power Defense) +1 1/2, Does Body +1, 0 End Cost +1/2, Cannot Add Str -1/2, Focus OAF -1, No Bleeding -1/4.

 

Jedi can use force powers and martial arts to boost damage, and to reduce damage taken. They can also use the force to reduce the OAF to OIF.

 

Pretty much the same as some others, execpt for the standard effect. It seems to fit to me. It doesn't matter so much whether or not you get hit with a light saber, what matters is where you get hit.

[James Gillen]

Re: Lightsabers

 

Originally posted by Plastick Hero

I've been running a successful SW campaign for a while. For Lightsabers, I use the following:

 

2d6 HKA: Attack Versus Limited Defense (Power Defense) (+1 1/2), Does BODY (+1), Continuous (+1), Uncontrolled (+1/2), OAF (-1), Independent (-2), No STR Bonus (-1/2), STR Minimum 10 (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4)

 

This makes certain assumptions:

1) A lightsaber ignores most defenses (hence cutting through droids and walker armor like butter). Given time, a lightsaber can cut through anything (it's only the BODY of the object stopping it in the first place). I use AVLD rather than NND because NND implies a reasonably common, completely effective defense. With AVLD a person with Power Defense (an uncommon defense) would have a chance at taking a lightsaber blow. The only people in a heroic campaign with Power Defense would be reasonably powerful Jedi (we saw Vader take a few cuts without major injury).

 

In the source material, Vader's armor is considered a product of 'Sith alchemy'- meaning it's proofed against lightsabers (gets its DEF against the attack). Which doesn't change the validity of what you're saying, it just means that Sith items count as having the Limited Defense. Usually, since the blade is considered coherent energy, Force Fields block it as well (this is why a saber can block another saber, and why Qui-Gon and Maul had to delay their fight in the palace until the security force fields behind Maul turned off).

 

JG

[Rick]

Nah, in the EU they claim that Vaders armor is proofed against lightsabers. In my not so humble opinion , that's dumb. Luke bouncing a shot of vader's shoulder has more to do W/a bad damage roll than anything (or as in my write up prehaps suffient combat luck). Besides Vader still clutches his arm and screams in pain, mean the lightsaber cut through it.

[James Gillen]

That, and the armor isn't that strong a defense (maybe 6). In any case, Vader can at least walk away from a saber cut.

 

JG

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Having been witness to (and prime abuser of) the power of the HERO-system Jedi Knight in combat, it is my not-so-humble opinion that the lightsaber should cost. The weapon I used, I believe, was 1½d6 HKA, 0 END, AP and Penetrating, upgradeable via the Force VPP. *shrugs* What with the 'rapid attack' HTH rules, so on and so forth, well -- say goodbye to 3 goons per round, pretty much.

 

On the other hand, you DO have to scale it to the campaign. The above was in a 'nitty gritty' campaign, 'buyable' RL weapons, armor and equipment, but if you wanted something extraordinary (battle armor, for example) you had to pay points. Resistant armor was also limited to a maximum of 12-15 points with a Focus, 10 points native; the GM (me again) wanted the characters to run a real risk of getting hurt, even killed, by a punk with a 9mm. So 1½d6 AP/Penetrating, damage that could be added to with Strength, maneuver, and Force, became completely deadly. That attack in a more 'superheroic' scenario, with 20 and 25 rEDs that are often resistant to AP and P, loses much of its 'punch'. It's still dangerous, certes, but it's not nearly as dangerous.

 

My advice winds up being 'scale it to the campaign'. A stormtrooper, despite armor, can be taken out by a direct blaster shot -- 30 Stun through the armor. So, figuring 6 rED (a lot in a universe where people don't wear any armor at all), we need a high-side average of 36 rED stun for a blaster bolt -- say, 4d6 RKA with a +2 stun multiplier. And a lightsaber equals that, PLUS is either AP or NND (ED force fields). When SW has force fields, they pretty much do the job...

 

Anyhow. Tailor to campaign.

[Rick]

Really you need to scale games in hero? Wow Glad someone told me.... (Sorry for the sarcasm )

[Outsider]

I would lean towards the following

 

Weapon has at least SOME highly penetrating damage. The 4th Edition rules (the ones I have) do not specifically state that Penetrating can be bought more than once, and do say that any target with Hardened defences is immune to such damage. My usual campaign rule is that Penetrating and AP stack, with APs stripping off Hardeneds until one or the other runs out, Penetrating would only be nullified if the number of Hardeneds on the target exceeds the number of APs on the attack. With this in mind, the first die of the lightsaber's KA would be AP, Pen (+1)

 

The weapon has do do at least enough damage to lop off limbs and/or cut people in half. I am not convinced that it has a significant amount of trouble doing this with large (but still humanish scale) targets. This means it will be needing to do a total of around 14 or 15 Body damage on average to unarmored targets, at the least. We COULD account for this by simply adding a bunch more KA, or we COULD do it by buying it as an HKA and allowing Strength and/or Martial Arts manuvers to add to it, or we COULD do it by allowing "The Force" to be used to add damage. I prefer doing all three. Light saber fighting certainly looks like a martial skill, after all, though it doesnt look so much like it really depends on strength, per se. (so, HKA, cant add str) The two handed bits in the style are not to provide greater striking strength, but are merely part of the style (and they keep your off hand from getting to the wrong place!) Allowing force users to beef up damage done via the force would explain why lightsabers kick butt in their hands, but every two bit mercenary isnt using one as a bayonet. Non-Jedi CAN use a lightsaber, but it really isnt any more effective than a vibro-blade for them.

 

SO a lightsaber in my estimation is :

 

5 (30) 1d6 HKA (E)

_______(+1/2) Armor Piercing

_______(+1/2) Penetrating

_______(-1) OAF (Universal)

_______(-2) Independent

_______(-1/4) Str Min ((Act/3)-5 (5 Str Min))

_______(-1/2) May not add damage due to excess STR

_______(-1/4) Real Weapon

_______(-1/2) Ineffective vs EM Shielding

_______(-1/4) Does No Knockback

_______(-1/4) Does not cause bleeding wounds

 

7 (37) +1 1/2d6 HKA (E)

_______(+1/2) Reduced Endurance (0 END)

_______(-1) OAF (Universal)

_______(-2) Independent

_______(-1/4) Real Weapon

_______(-1/2) Ineffective vs EM Shielding

_______(-1/4) Does No Knockback

_______(-1/4) Does not cause bleeding wounds

 

 

Up to 5 more Damage classes may be added via Skill Levels (2 Skill = +1 DC) or Martial Manuvers (+2d6 manuver = +1DC) or via a "The Force" at a rate of +1DC per 5 pool points so dedicated.

 

An additional 3 Damage classes that are AP, PEN may be added via Skill Level (4 Skill = +1DC (AP PEN)) or Martial Manuvers (+4d6 manuver = +1DC (AP PEN)), or via "The Force" at a rate of +1DC per 10 pool points so dedicated.

 

Alternatively, allow Force users to have a "Aid - HKA, Lightsaber ONLY" slot in their force pool. This will make them even more powerful, as it will allow them to boost their offensive output without tying up their force pool for more than a phase. I would still include it under the 8 extra DC limit, though. otherwise the attacks might get too big. 5d6+1 Killing should be big enough.

 

 

 

 

 

HOW LIGHTSABERS COMPARE TO OTHER TECHNOLOGIES

 

Stormtrooper Armor (sensorium/com gear excluded) :

1 (6) 2/2 Armor

_____(-1/2) OIF (Universal)

_____(-2) Independent

_____(-1/4) Real Armor

_____(-1/2) Has Mass (half nominal) (5Kg)

1 (6) +0/4 Armor

_____(-1/2) OIF (Universal)

_____(-2) Independent

_____(-1/4) Real Armor

_____(-1/2) Has Mass (half nominal) (5Kg)

_____(-1/2) Only vs Blasters

 

 

Blasters (all are OAF (-1), Independent (-2), Real Weapon (-1/4), Has STR min (disad listed with individual weapon), Cant Add Damage w STR (-1/2). Total lim (-3.75))

 

Holdout Blaster (Small, Easily Concealed)

7 (45) 3d6 RKA, 4 charges (-1) (Str min is (Act/3)-5) = 10) (-1/4)

 

Blaster Pistol (Standard)

9 (45) 3d6 RKA, 16 charges (-0) (Str min is (Act/3)-5) = 10) (-1/4)

 

Heavy Blaster Pistol (DL-44, Solo's Blaster)

16 (75) 4d6 RKA, 16 charges (-0) (Str min is (Act/3)-10) = 10) (+1/4)

 

Blaster Carbine (Short Blaster Rifle, for use by ships crews)

13 (67) 3d6 RKA, 32 charges (+1/4), 1 1/2 handed (-1/4) (Str min is (Act/3)-10) = 9 (or 11, one handed)) (+1/4)

 

Blaster Rifle (Full Size Personal Blaster Rifle, for outdoor use)

17 (90) 4d6 RKA, 32 charges (+1/4), 2 handed (-1/2) (Str min is (Act/3)-10) = 10) (+1/4)

 

Heavy Blaster (Man Portable, Crew Served)

29 (150) 4d6 RKA, 250 charges (+1), Autofire (+1/2), Bulky (-1/2), Takes 1 Turn to set up (-1/2) (does not get "cant add damage w str lim, since it has no str min lim (- -1/2)

 

Large vehicles (Such as AT-ATs, or ships the size of the Millenium Falcon, or larger) get Damage Reduction, useable only against attacks significantly beneath their scale. The farther beneath their scale, the greater the level of Damage Reduction. They ALSO get a disavantage "underscale targets conducting a close assault (melee range to maybe 4 hexes out) may attempt to Find Weakness (limited to one success) against this vehicle.

 

Thus, an AT-AT, for example, gets its full DEF and takes full BODY from other vehicles, but an infantryman that is right next to it can look for a weak spot and nail it there, attacking against 1/2 normal DEF, but doing 1/2 normal Body damage. If the Infantryman has an AP/PEN attack, he may be attacking against 1/4 normal DEF, and do 1/2 normal Body Damage, with a guarantee of doing some (due to the PEN)

 

 

Thats how I see it anyway.

[Vondy]

I just build them as 2d6 ERKA, AVLD (force field, force wall, mag-seals, major hardening), DOES BODY, NO RANGE, CAN BE BLOCKED, OAF and call it a day.

[Jhereg]

Re: Re: Lightsabers

 

Originally posted by James Gillen

Force Fields block it as well (this is why a saber can block another saber, and why Qui-Gon and Maul had to delay their fight in the palace until the security force fields behind Maul turned off).

 

JG

 

I agree with that. Actually, I usually include FF's in the applicable defense. I left it out of the write up for simplicity's sake. With FF's as an applicable AVLD defense (rather than a NND) the lightsaber *can* penetrate weaker FF's. The one seperating Maul and Qui-Gon was obviously not weak. But if Lighsaber's are NND, then even a 1 rED FF would be proof against it. Assuming lightsaber-wielder knows the limitations of his weapon, why would Maul have "tested" the FF unless it was conceivable that a lightsaber can make it through a FF (aside of course for the obvious reason of informing the audience. I'm not ignorant)?

 

Using an AVLD write up is perfect for a GM that wants to use Lightsaber-resistant Sith armor. Instead of calling "sith armor" an applicable defense to the SVLD, just assign the armor Power Defense in addition to DD&ED. That makes the armor more special, not the lighsaber more limited.

[Cybrarian]

I run a d20 SW campaign and I'm considering a switch to Hero. Being a Hero newbie and looking at the lightsaber discussion I have a question.

 

Doesn't DOES BODY when combined with NND or AVLD only get you back to doing normal damage? It seems to me that a 'saber should be doing killing damage rather than normal.

 

Another thing that put me off a little was the energy sword writeup in Star Hero (p. 148) which uses RKA, No Range (-1/2.) HKA specifically lists the -1/2 limitation No STR Bonus (5th Ed., p. 124) which includes the desciptive text, "It might represent, for example, a lasersword..." HKA, No STR Bonus and RKA, No Range may be functional and cost equivalents, but the former seems a more elegant description of what's happening. Am I missing something?

[Jhereg]

Originally posted by Cybrarian

Doesn't DOES BODY when combined with NND or AVLD only get you back to doing normal damage? It seems to me that a 'saber should be doing killing damage rather than normal.

 

By buying NND (+1) and Does Body (+1), you're still doing a KA, it just means the KA is now exempt from the rule that says NND's are automatically STUN Only. A NND DOES BODY is rolled and tallied just like the original KA, but there's no defense (at least not a normal one).

 

Another thing that put me off a little was the energy sword writeup in Star Hero (p. 148) which uses RKA, No Range (-1/2.) HKA specifically lists the -1/2 limitation No STR Bonus (5th Ed., p. 124) which includes the desciptive text, "It might represent, for example, a lasersword..." HKA, No STR Bonus and RKA, No Range may be functional and cost equivalents, but the former seems a more elegant description of what's happening. Am I missing something?

 

They're two different ways of doing the same thing. HKA w/ No STR Bonus, and RKA No Range are both creating the same power. Same effect: same cost. Write it however you like.

[Jhereg]

To paraphrase Steve Long: It's all about the special effects of the power. And that, my friend is up to you.

[Cybrarian]

Originally posted by Plastick Hero

By buying NND (+1) and Does Body (+1), you're still doing a KA, it just means the KA is now exempt from the rule that says NND's are automatically STUN Only. A NND DOES BODY is rolled and tallied just like the original KA, but there's no defense (at least not a normal one).

 

This is what I initially thought, but a friend with more Hero experience pointed out that NND makes it a STUN Only attack. Then adding DOES BODY would turn it into a Normal Damage attack. This seems to be born out by the text of DOES BODY (p. 164,) "This Advantage allows Attack Powers which ordinarily do only STUN damage - such as Ego Attacks, AVLDs, and NNDs - to do BODY damage as well. The BODY damage done is counted like Normal Damage BODY..." That seems to be pretty definitive.

 

Is there anything in FREd that discusses tallying NND Does Body like a normal KA?

[Jhereg]

I think that passage is assuming the attack was a Normal Damage attack in the first place. But you may want to take it to Steve's 5th Ed Rules Questions to be sure. I wouldn't mind hearing his explanation myself.

[Cybrarian]

Originally posted by Plastick Hero

I think that passage is assuming the attack was a Normal Damage attack in the first place. But you may want to take it to Steve's 5th Ed Rules Questions to be sure. I wouldn't mind hearing his explanation myself.

 

You're right. I found the answer in the Power Advantages and Add-Ons FAQs:

 

Does BODY

Q: If a character applies Does BODY to an RKA NND, do you calculate the BODY done as usual for a Killing Attack, or as if it were Normal Damage BODY?

 

A: Calculate the BODY (and STUN) as usual for an RKA. An RKA NND that does not have Does BODY would also calculate its STUN damage as usual for an RKA; the BODY rolled of course does not apply to the target.

[Jhereg]

Whew! Glad to hear it. You had me worried I was using the wrong rules for who-knows-how-long.

[Farkling]

This is a long and interesting debate. I have observations to add from the debate as seen from outside the box here...

 

1) Light sabers cut up people easily, with little shock (STUN) damage.

2) Light sabers cut through damn near any physical object.

3) Jedi can freely block and parry these horrible devices, others get whacked. Jedi take litle damage from saber blows (dodges, force shielding, etc)

4) Boba Fett's armor resists saber blows

5) Blast doors take a while to cut through. DEF or thickness? I'm inclined to think thickness from Star Wars: The Race (Episode 1)

 

After looking at all these writeups, the majority of you are building your sabers as AVLD vs Power Defense. Power Defense covers the Jedi "dodges" quite aptly, as they are no doubt using som force powers to save themselves...

 

The AVLD cuts force fields without a limitation. As does the NND-Does Body combination.

 

Let's cut out the middleman, and cheapen the armor purchases for Boba Fett and company.

 

I think that if I ever set up a Star Wars game or start using light sabers, I am going to build them as 3-5d6 BODY Drain attacks (possibly with delayed return rate, I don't know, Jedi seem to heal mundane saber wounds quickly, or not receive them in the first place, and lost limbs are covered under the disabling rules). That will typically take down most normals, regardless of armor and shields. Minor STUN damage will be done by the Drain effect. Add "cannot penetrate force fields" on top of that, and I think I'll be doing okay. The thermal output of the saber would be sufficient to burn through just about anything given sufficient time. Considering these are energy blades, I doubt that anything will resist them. Things that have resisted in the movies were struck glancing blows (bad rolls).

 

Now Boba Fett, Vader, and any Eilte Troopers that show up can buy Power Defense: OIF Armor, only to reduce damage from Light Sabers (and/or Force Powers!),

 

Jedi HAVE Power Defense to turn that lethal strike into a glancing injury (Luke, end of Empire before his hand gets lopped off).

[Rick]

Actually mines an ALVD against combat luck, but it also has a (-1/2) limitation, doesn't effect energy shielding.

[Aroooo]

Unless Combat Luck is fairly common in your game, wouldn't it be innapropriate for an AVLD? Or am I just too tired and thinking more of NND's?

 

Aroooo

[James Gillen]

Given that armor seems to be almost as rare in SW as it is in the real world, I'd think Combat Luck would be the most common form of resistant defense, at least if you've got "PC" floating above your forehead.

 

JG

[Rick]

Hell yah combat luck is really common in my planned Star Wars Campaign. To the point that I'll charge 1 point for +1 resistant defense (PD or ED), so that everyone doesn't have the same amount of resistant defence.. Jedi, other heroes and important bad guys like Sith darkjedi and bad ass bounty hunters will all have Combat luck. Storm Troopers and Battle droids, no combat luck.

[James Gillen]

So Here's My Take

 

Lightsaber: RKA 1 1/2d6 (25) AVLD (+1 1/2), Does BODY (+1), 0 END (+1/2) = 100 Active Points -OAF (-1), No Range (-1/2) subtotal 40 points

plus RKA 1d6 (15), AVLD (+1 1/2) Does BODY (+1), Damage Shield (+1/2), Continuous (+1) 0 END (+1/2) = 67 AP

-OAF (-1), Linked (-1/2), only vs. material objects which strike the blade (-1/4) 24 points

EQUALS 64 points Real Cost

 

options

Missile Deflection vs. all (20) OAF/lightsaber = 10 pts.

one hex radius (+1/2 = 30) = +5 pts.

Reflection vs. any target (+30) OAF (-1), only Reflects energy attacks (-1/4) = +13 pts.

 

Lightsaber Combat: use Energy Blade Fencing from STAR HERO, p. 44

-

 

As you can probably tell, this is modeled after the 'Energy Blade' from STAR HERO. I modified things for the following reasons:

RKA/Damage Class: I made this an RKA (rather than HKA as some have done) because it allows me to take the No Range limit, because a blade with no weight is kind of hard to apply Strength damage with, and because if Advantage modifiers have to be applied to STR, it would be hard for most wielders to get even +1 DC for STR. Similarly, the weapon has no STR Limit.

 

The Damage Class is relatively low compared to some writeups, given that a) the lightsaber seems to be wielded as a hand-and-a-half blade like a bastard sword or katana, thus I gave it an equivalent Damage Class (5 DC, 1 1/2 d6 K) and even though the sword can cut virtually anything, it's still limited by the physics of its construction. This is why, in Episode I, Qui-Gon could cut into and heat the Neimoidians' blast door, but not cut it down in one attack. This also makes things a bit more balanced and keeps the weapon from being an instant kill every time. Increasing the DC is possible with Lightsaber Combat, with each +2 DC adding +1 DC to a Killing Attack as per other weapon Martial Arts. However, this is considered a "Force power" in that the Jedi is using the Force through the blade and channeling his skill with the Force through his martial art. Thus, while non-Force users could learn to use the blade (Uncommon Melee Familiarity) and could get Combat Skill Levels in it, they wouldn't be able to take the Martial Art.

 

AVLD: The AVLD applies to Force Fields (including the blade itself, so lightsabers can parry each other), Power Defense, certain creations of 'Sith alchemy' (in addition to Vader's armor, there were some Sith blades in Tales of the Jedi that could parry sabers) and Combat Luck, which again, would be fairly common among the name characters in SW given that armor is rare and unarmored characters in HERO are very vulnerable. Since these defenses are not all-or-nothing, the Advantage is AVLD, not NND. Also, if Combat Luck is used as a defense, the GM should make sure that PCs can't get it beyond the base 3 Defense.

 

Damage Shield: Likewise, trying to parry the saber with a material object is going to get the object cut, most likely destroyed if it has less than 6 BODY or is held against the blade more than one Phase.

 

0 END: The weapon has to use some kind of energy cell, but they never go into details on how it works, so it's just as well to make it 0 END and say it burns out on a fumble or something.

 

The weapon itself would cost 64 points if bought, although this is a steep cost for Heroic-level characters. At the same time, the lightsaber is an overly powerful melee weapon given its ability to avoid most defenses. I'd say that when a Jedi is given his first blade by a Master, it's free, but when he has to make his own blade, it costs points (possibly applying the Independent Limitation given the rarity of the items, especially in the Empire). However, the Lightsaber Combat art, and the Missile Deflection/Reflection are all aspects of Force Skill, and should be bought outright, even if the blade is free (in which case the OAF Limitation still applies on the Missile Deflection/Reflection).

 

JG

[Farkling]

I'm not sure it needs the damage shield rider. It would be cinematic to declare the energy blade damage applies against any object a block is rolled against...much like some of the optional combat rules in (Fantasy?) Hero. When a light saber leaves a Jedi's hand it turns off, unless he uses the force to continue wielding it (such as the popular throws of books and video games). As it stands, anything the blade impacts takes a 2 1/2 d6 RKA, and anything it simply touches takes onlyt 1d6 RKA...that seems to be cinematic more than mechanic.

 

Perhaps Continuous, and "only blade impact" should be applied in some variant to the attack itself...

 

This construct is also mildly interesting if one applies the TK force power to wielding the blade...effectivley tacking range onto the damage shield power. I'd rather charge for continuous up front, after all, the blades are on for all combat phases continuously.

 

Feedback?

[James Gillen]

Yeah, those are some good ideas. It's just that mechanically, HERO applies the Damage Shield in order to damage an opponent's weapon in the same Phase he hits. It's not big on "cinematic" rules.

 

JG

[NuSoardGraphite]

Hey!

 

Putting up a topic about Lightsabre martial arts now