Need the help of someone with 5ER

[Gary Ciaramella]

My question to Steve

 

"A character has shrinking that does not work in water... the other powers are linked to the shrinking, do they qualify to taking the does not work in water limitation as well, or is that just automatically assumed do to the fact that the primary power is not working at that point?"

 

Steve's reply to me

 

"See 5ER 300."

 

Now, since I do not have 5ER yet, I could not see 5ER 300. Would one of you check that page for me and let me know what it says please? I am going to get 5ER, as soon as I can afford it, but that will not be for a month or two.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Need the help of someone with 5ER

 

All the Powers can/should take the "Not In Water" Limitation. (That's per 5ER, page 300).

[Agent X]

Re: Need the help of someone with 5ER

 

I wish I could help you. I bought the original 5th edition rulebook, Champions Universe, Champions, Millennium City, Champions Battlegrounds, Until Superpowers Database, The Ultimate Vehicle, Gadgets and Gear, Terran Empire, Star Hero, the Hero Vehicle Sourcebook, Coils of the Serpent, Sharper than a Serpent's Tooth, Reality Storm, the Ultimate Brick, Conquerors Killers & Crooks, and the Spacer's Toolkit... oh, and the GMs Resource Kit. I think that's all of the 5th edition I've bought. Anyway, I haven't gotten around to buying the Revised Edition that I haven't even seen on the shelves yet so I would have to ask DOJ the same question you did... and they would direct me to buy a very recently released book just like they did to you. Wow, that's customer service. As if the purchase of the Revised Edition hangs on answering a smattering of questions like these on the boards. Very unimpressive.

 

edit: Nice of Derek to help out.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Need the help of someone with 5ER

 

Geez, Agent X, what did you have for breakfast? Steve stated what the policy was going to be. He can't (and shoudn't) do multiple version page references, so there has to be a cutoff somewhere. He had the time to give a page cite; most game companies wouldn't even do that. Try getting even that much from Wizards of the coast, for instance.

He knew, (and obviously so did Gary) that there are several posters (more every day) who have the book and are willing to elaborate and help.

 

Keith "jeepers!" Curtis

[Gary Ciaramella]

Re: Need the help of someone with 5ER

 

Geez, Agent X, what did you have for breakfast? Steve stated what the policy was going to be. He can't (and shoudn't) do multiple version page references, so there has to be a cutoff somewhere. He had the time to give a page cite; most game companies wouldn't even do that. Try getting even that much from Wizards of the coast, for instance.

He knew, (and obviously so did Gary) that there are several posters (more every day) who have the book and are willing to elaborate and help.

 

Keith "jeepers!" Curtis

 

At first I wanted to go "Bah!" and get upset... mostly because it has been a bad day, but decided not to. It would have been nice if he has answered my question in a way that I could have used, but like you said, I figured I could direct my question to the board and get help. I probably should have done that first, in hindsight.

[Gary Ciaramella]

Re: Need the help of someone with 5ER

 

All the Powers can/should take the "Not In Water" Limitation. (That's per 5ER' date=' page 300). [/quote']

 

Thank you very much, Derek...

[MitchellS]

Re: Need the help of someone with 5ER

 

At first I wanted to go "Bah!" and get upset... mostly because it has been a bad day' date=' but decided not to. It would have been nice if he has answered my question in a way that I could have used, but like you said, I figured I could direct my question to the board and get help. I probably should have done that first, in hindsight.[/quote']

You probably should have checked the faq first. That is where the reference in 5Er comes from.

[Gary Ciaramella]

Re: Need the help of someone with 5ER

 

You probably should have checked the faq first. That is where the reference in 5Er comes from.

 

I did check the faq, I did not find the reference of which you speak. Not to say it is not there, but that I just did not find it.

[MitchellS]

Re: Need the help of someone with 5ER

 

I did check the faq' date=' I did not find the reference of which you speak. Not to say it is not there, but that I just did not find it.[/quote']

Rules faq under Linked:

 

Q: If a character Links a power to a power that has a Limitation (such as OIF or OIHID), does the Linked power automatically suffer from that Limitation by default (for no point savings), or can it take that Limitation?

 

A: Barring some unusual power constructs approved by the GM, generally a Linked power should take Limitations like that which the greater power has. For example, if a character has a Flame Blast on an OIF, and wants to Link a small Flash to it, if the OIF gets taken away, he can’t use the Flash, so it’s a valid Limitation on the Flash as well.

[Agent X]

Re: Need the help of someone with 5ER

 

Geez, Agent X, what did you have for breakfast? Steve stated what the policy was going to be. He can't (and shoudn't) do multiple version page references, so there has to be a cutoff somewhere. He had the time to give a page cite; most game companies wouldn't even do that. Try getting even that much from Wizards of the coast, for instance.

He knew, (and obviously so did Gary) that there are several posters (more every day) who have the book and are willing to elaborate and help.

 

Keith "jeepers!" Curtis

I'm not going to argue with you. I don't buy your explanation. I expected some sort of response like this. However, I use this as a forum to complain as well as converse. When I see the company do something that I don't like as a consumer, I voice my opinion.

 

For example, I did that with Mystic World and was basically brushed off (and that's okay). I'll probably be brushed off in the future as well. The only other voice I have is not to buy certain products or all products. So far I've elected to be selective. I didn't buy Mystic World. If the company insinuates some of the concepts in Mystic World into everything they publish, I'll go somewhere else.

 

In this case, I'm complaining about something pretty obvious. A consumer is being steered to a new book that it has been stressed doesn't make the old 5th edition obsolete, yet actions seem to deny this. I'm complaining now because I damn well want to make sure DOJ is aware that these tactics, especially if they more strongly pursue them, will have a backlash. I make no pretense of being able to read anyone at DOJ's mind nor do I give a flying fig what WOTC would do.

 

I played Champions for years without new product coming in to my home and I can do it again. I hope I'm not so dissatisfied with company decisions or products to have to go that route but it's not an option I particularly dread.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Need the help of someone with 5ER

 

I agree somewhat with Agent X. While a longer phase in (say, three to six months) of the new 5ER book would have been perfectly reasonable, it does seem a bit unreasonable to have a 30 second phase in. I understand why Hero is doing it this way, I'm just not certain it's the optimal method.

[MitchellS]

Re: Need the help of someone with 5ER

 

I agree somewhat with Agent X. While a longer phase in (say' date=' three to six months) of the new 5ER book would have been perfectly reasonable, it does seem a bit unreasonable to have a 30 second phase in. I understand why Hero is doing it this way, I'm just not certain it's the optimal method.[/quote']

I agree it's not an optimal method but I do understand that there is virtually nothing in 5Er that is not readily available to 5E consumers via the faq and genre-by-genre document. Hero Games did not change the rules for 5Er, they mostly just incorporated the faq. In all honesty I'm surprised Steve Long answers as many questions as he does; especially the ones which are asked because people don't want to read 5E or the faq.

 

IMO, the rule of thumb should be to look in 5E first. The second to check the faq. The third to ask other posters. Only the forth option should be to ask Steve Long. The more time Steve Long spends answer these types of questions the less time he has to work on books; which in turn means the longer I must wait for the few books I really want to purchase.

[MitchellS]

Re: Need the help of someone with 5ER

 

The only other voice I have is not to buy certain products or all products. So far I've elected to be selective. I didn't buy Mystic World.

I'm selective as well. I do not like a great deal of the material Hero Games produces. I believe Hero Games counts on the "completest" aspect of its fans. I don't buy into that. I am a completest myself though so I buy the books that will complete my collection on eBay from other gamers who are selling theirs. That way Hero Games gets no direct benefit from the sale. I bought both Dark Champions and Gadgets & Gear for half off that way. I see no need to support product lines which I believe are unnecessary or uninteresting. Ultimately, since fan opinion has no apparent basis on what Hero Games will produce, all we can do is vote with our buying dollars. Hopefully Hero Games will catch on before they go belly-up. Anyway I don't think this has anything to do with the fact that we shouldn't expect Steve Long to give us every single answer we have a question for, when the answer is easily found by ourselves.

[JmOz]

Re: Need the help of someone with 5ER

 

I'm selective as well. I do not like a great deal of the material Hero Games produces. I believe Hero Games counts on the "completest" aspect of its fans. I don't buy into that. I am a completest myself though so I buy the books that will complete my collection on eBay from other gamers who are selling theirs. That way Hero Games gets no direct benefit from the sale. I bought both Dark Champions and Gadgets & Gear for half off that way. I see no need to support product lines which I believe are unnecessary or uninteresting. Ultimately' date=' since fan opinion has no apparent basis on what Hero Games will produce, all we can do is vote with our buying dollars. Hopefully Hero Games will catch on before they go belly-up. Anyway I don't think this has anything to do with the fact that we shouldn't expect Steve Long to give us every single answer we have a question for, when the answer is easily found by ourselves.[/quote']

 

Thus the reason that I have only bought 1 book from each genre except Champions (The core book like Fantacy Hero)

[Blue]

Re: Need the help of someone with 5ER

 

Well optimally, you say "See 5ER Page 300 or the old Rules FAQ under LINKED", but I can't imagine how hard it's going to be to remember the pages and references for both after a while, and Steve sure doesn't have the time to go looking them up himself so it's all from memory. So I've got no problem with the current arragement. But then it's easy for me to say (5er sitting right here; I use mine as a desk).

[Trebuchet]

Re: Need the help of someone with 5ER

 

I'm selective as well. I do not like a great deal of the material Hero Games produces. I believe Hero Games counts on the "completest" aspect of its fans. I don't buy into that. I am a completest myself though so I buy the books that will complete my collection on eBay from other gamers who are selling theirs. That way Hero Games gets no direct benefit from the sale. I bought both Dark Champions and Gadgets & Gear for half off that way. I see no need to support product lines which I believe are unnecessary or uninteresting. Ultimately' date=' since fan opinion has no apparent basis on what Hero Games will produce, all we can do is vote with our buying dollars. Hopefully Hero Games will catch on before they go belly-up.[/quote']I think that's way too harsh. Nobody solicits ideas and input from players like Hero Games does. That they can't produce Smurf Hero and other niche products for those twenty-six individuals that would actually buy them is only good business sense. Hero Games has only so much time and other resources with which to produce books and supplements; they've got to focus on what sells first. Everything else is gravy.

 

I want them to produce books I'd particularly like too, but not at the expense of going out of business. Even though I only play standard Champions and see zero likelihood I'll play another genre, I've bought 5e (and my 5ER is on order), Star Hero, Dark Champions, Bestiary, Champions, Alien Wars, TUV, UMA, TUB, Ninja Hero, CKC, and Galactic Champions.

 

That's capitalism. They have a product I like, I buy it. Everybody wins.

[paigeoliver]

Re: Need the help of someone with 5ER

 

My friend and I just compared his new copy of Dark Champions to my new copy of Champions.

 

Dark Champions is almost twice as big as Champions, yet Champions seems to be infinitely more popular as a genre.

[Magmarock]

Re: Need the help of someone with 5ER

 

 

Dark Champions is almost twice as big as Champions, yet Champions seems to be infinitely more popular as a genre.

 

Could the size difference be because Dark Champions genre is more Focus & Skill dependent?

 

 

Mags

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Need the help of someone with 5ER

 

Dark Champions is almost twice as big as Champions' date=' yet Champions seems to be infinitely more popular as a genre.[/quote']Therefore, Champions gets more support books following it up, and doesn't need to contain as much in the main book as Dark Champions does. For example, Dark Champions has tons of material for Super-Skills and firearms that eat up a lot of page-count. Champions didn't have to put pre-built abilities and weapons in it... treatment of those things for standard superheroics got their own whole books devoted to them (The UNTIL Superpowers Database and Gadgets And Gear, respectively).

 

Plus, Dark Champions is really covering a broader range of campaign types than Champions is. Comic-book superheroics is narrower in scope than the combination of Vigilante Heroes, Action Cinema, Law Enforcement, Espionage, Military Adventure, etc. that is gathered under the "Dark Champions" umbrella. It's bigger because there's more ground to cover. This is also partially why Star Hero and Fantasy Hero are bigger than Champions.

 

It has nothing to do with popularity... it has to do with scope.

[MitchellS]

Re: Need the help of someone with 5ER

 

My friend and I just compared his new copy of Dark Champions to my new copy of Champions.

 

Dark Champions is almost twice as big as Champions, yet Champions seems to be infinitely more popular as a genre.

The small mount of activity in the Dark Champions forum bears out the fact that Champions is more popular as well. Whether Hero Games likes it or not Champions is the bread-and-butter of the company. That doesn't mean there aren't other niche markets to be filled, and I'm sure fantasy is a huge niche, but when only 7-8 or out 22 books [and do they really think they can publish 22 books next year when they are already behind this year?] to be published next are for your most popular genre you really need to ask yourself why. As a Champions player I do resent the fact that non-Champions books are generally larger those published for Champion. You can spread yourself too thin by trying to appease everyone.

[Kristopher]

Re: Need the help of someone with 5ER

 

I think that's way too harsh. Nobody solicits ideas and input from players like Hero Games does. That they can't produce Smurf Hero and other niche products for those twenty-six individuals that would actually buy them is only good business sense. Hero Games has only so much time and other resources with which to produce books and supplements; they've got to focus on what sells first. Everything else is gravy.

 

I want them to produce books I'd particularly like too, but not at the expense of going out of business. Even though I only play standard Champions and see zero likelihood I'll play another genre, I've bought 5e (and my 5ER is on order), Star Hero, Dark Champions, Bestiary, Champions, Alien Wars, TUV, UMA, TUB, Ninja Hero, CKC, and Galactic Champions.

 

That's capitalism. They have a product I like, I buy it. Everybody wins.

 

For direct proof that HERO/DoJ listens to its customers, check out the "What Would You Like to See" threads. The writer working on Teen Champions seems to have read every post on the thread I started for player input on that book way back when it was first announced. I was really psyched that the writer actually noticed a player-started thread and seemed genuinely interested in it.

[MitchellS]

Re: Need the help of someone with 5ER

 

For direct proof that HERO/DoJ listens to its customers' date=' check out the "What Would You Like to See" threads. The writer working on [i']Teen Champions[/i] seems to have read every post on the thread I started for player input on that book way back when it was first announced. I was really psyched that the writer actually noticed a player-started thread and seemed genuinely interested in it.

Asking us what we want to see in Free Willy Hero is not the same thing as asking us if we would want to buy Free Willy Hero over another possible publishable choice.

[Kristopher]

Re: Need the help of someone with 5ER

 

Asking us what we want to see in Free Willy Hero is not the same thing as asking us if we would want to buy Free Willy Hero over another possible publishable choice.

 

A) That's tangential to the point I was making.

It's the kind of question that, when asked, opens up the possibility of getting the sort of feedback -- none or negative -- that lets a company know that a product isn't that wanted, and might not sell that well.

 

C) Listen to yourself...talking about how you make sure that HERO Games doesn't gain any benefit from when you buy a HERO book, by buying it used.

 

...I buy the books that will complete my collection on eBay from other gamers who are selling theirs. That way Hero Games gets no direct benefit from the sale.

[MitchellS]

Re: Need the help of someone with 5ER

 

C) Listen to yourself...talking about how you make sure that HERO Games doesn't gain any benefit from when you buy a HERO book' date=' by buying it used.[/quote']

Read and comprehend the whole sentence. I purchase the books I have NO other interest in owning used because I'm a completest; I want a complete collection of 5E books. I do not purchase them new because I believe Hero Game should not have wasted resources and time publishing them. If people buy Free Willy Hero new because they are completest then Hero Games thinks Free Willy Hero is what people want to see. The only way we have of showing our lack of interest is with our dollars, because Hero Games publishes whatever it wants whether fans think it is a good idea or not.

[Kristopher]

Re: Need the help of someone with 5ER

 

That's your silly problem then, to be blunt. Why buy books you'll never use? "Gotta catch 'em all!" I guess...

 

As for your assertion that HERO Games publishes whatever they feel like, with no consideration for what the players want to see...well, I'm not sure how to argue with someone who is delusional.