Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

[Susano]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

Nostalgia may be clouding people's memories of what the original X-Men were really like. Most issues went something like this:

 

Prof. X: My X-Men! Magneto is stealing nuclear weapons from an apparently undefended military base!

 

X-Men: Again?

 

Beast: Wait -- isn’t this the guy who can control any metal with magnetism, even if the metal isn’t ferrous?

 

Prof. X: *glares*

 

Beast: Can’t he just, you know, flip the entire Earth’s magnetic field? And give everybody strokes by controlling the iron in his blood? Why does he need nuclear weapons, again?

 

Prof. X: *YOU WILL IGNORE THE LAME PLOT*

 

X-Men: We. Will. Ignore. Lame. Plot.

 

Prof. X: *YOU WILL GO TO THE MILITARY BASE AND FIGHT MAGNETO*

 

X-Men: We. Will. Fight. Magneto.

 

Beast: Again.

 

-------------------------

 

Magneto: [really long expository speech edited out for brevity]

 

Cyclops: X-Men, attack! I’ll shoot my eyebeams at Magneto, and never wonder why he doesn’t just magnetically take away my visor!

 

Angel: I’ll fly!

 

Marvel Girl: I’ll hold my fingers to my forehead, because my powers don’t ever actually do anything. And if no one pays enough attention to me, I’ll faint!

 

Iceman: I’ll throw snowballs at Magneto!

 

Ian McKellan: I am so firing my agent.

 

Beast: Hm. Even the US government isn’t stupid enough to keep nuclear weapons at underdefended military bases. These are just movie props.

 

Magneto: Curses! Foiled again by you meddling kids!

 

Angel: Helllooo? Flying around, here.

 

Beast: I am so joining the Avengers.

 

This reads like "Van Helsing in 15 Minutes."

 

Which is a good thing BTW.

[Agent X]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

I have to smile Agent, you pumped out the most tricked out New World version of Angel I have seen. ;D

 

A 33 con? really?

 

Hawksmoor

-PS that was a compliment

Well, I figure I guy who can fly with wings that physics says he can't use has got to have a superhuman constitution. ...And he's a mutant.

[Agent X]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

Nostalgia may be clouding people's memories of what the original X-Men were really like. Most issues went something like this:

 

 

 

Prof. X: My X-Men! Magneto is stealing nuclear weapons from an apparently undefended military base!

 

X-Men: Again?

 

Beast: Wait -- isn’t this the guy who can control any metal with magnetism, even if the metal isn’t ferrous?

 

Prof. X: *glares*

 

Beast: Can’t he just, you know, flip the entire Earth’s magnetic field? And give everybody strokes by controlling the iron in his blood? Why does he need nuclear weapons, again?

 

Prof. X: *YOU WILL IGNORE THE LAME PLOT*

 

X-Men: We. Will. Ignore. Lame. Plot.

 

Prof. X: *YOU WILL GO TO THE MILITARY BASE AND FIGHT MAGNETO*

 

X-Men: We. Will. Fight. Magneto.

 

Beast: Again.

 

-------------------------

 

Magneto: [really long expository speech edited out for brevity]

 

Cyclops: X-Men, attack! I’ll shoot my eyebeams at Magneto, and never wonder why he doesn’t just magnetically take away my visor!

 

Angel: I’ll fly!

 

Marvel Girl: I’ll hold my fingers to my forehead, because my powers don’t ever actually do anything. And if no one pays enough attention to me, I’ll faint!

 

Iceman: I’ll throw snowballs at Magneto!

 

Ian McKellan: I am so firing my agent.

 

Beast: Hm. Even the US government isn’t stupid enough to keep nuclear weapons at underdefended military bases. These are just movie props.

 

Magneto: Curses! Foiled again by you meddling kids!

 

Angel: Helllooo? Flying around, here.

 

Beast: I am so joining the Avengers.

 

 

 

Sure, Angel only flapped his wings. Iceman threw snowballs as his power. Marvel Girl really didn't do much of anything -- and had to hold her hands to her forehead to do that. Beast had big hands and feet, and did somersaults. "Powerhouse" they weren't.

Cyclops' beams could plow through a mountainside...

[Agent X]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

A gas gun. He used it during his very brief pre-x-men adventuring career as the Avenging Angel. From the old retcon stories giving expanded origins to the X-men, I believe.

 

Hey, Doug, remember that attempt to play DC Heroes with Jason Kidd?

Jason "I just want a guy who has wings."

You "Well, that only cost him like 40 points. What else can he do?"

Jason "All I want is for him to have wings."

-snickers from other players-

Jason "Um, I guess he could be rich or something."

-more snickers-

insert eye-rolling and my whispered comments about Jason having recreated Angel to Dave

End result, a light brick with wings, since he decided to dump the rest of the points into his Str, Dex & Body stats. Oh, and he was rich.

Oh, I remember. The character wasn't any more bizarre than the Panther though. Jason just never really got the genre.

[Blue]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

Well, I think Kitty has since gone to College though I don't recall if she's graduated. And I think there was a "near miss" where they did one of those moments where Claremont wrote a scene in one issue where Karma and her were nearly kissing. (I think it's in the Xtreme Xmen TPB that has Kitty on the cover). It's Claremont's lecherous juvenile streak. I recognize it because I have one too.

 

Personally, I like what Joss is doing with Kitty right now. He treates her like an adult, though the youngest of the team who is still somewhat looked upon as the little-sister by Wolverine, reintroduced Peter, and has a great rivalry with Emma Frost.

 

My favorite exchanges of the last book were between her and Emma (where Emma is grossing her out about her affair with Scott and that funny comment about JJ Jameson tongue kissing spiderman).

[proditor]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

Cyclops' beams could plow through a mountainside...

Not originally. Part of Giant-Size X-men 1 was a serious upgrade to his power level. It was a heavy handed and goofy explanation, but it was there. The mountain/living island thing drained him dry but when his powers came back, they were 10 fold greater!!!! Or some such nonsense.

[Agent X]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

Not originally. Part of Giant-Size X-men 1 was a serious upgrade to his power level. It was a heavy handed and goofy explanation' date=' but it was there. The mountain/living island thing drained him dry but when his powers came back, they were 10 fold greater!!!! Or some such nonsense. [/quote'] I think it was X-Men #27 or 29, the original series, Cyclops throws a fit and blasts through a large chunk of a mountainside and then curses his own stupidity.

[Kristopher]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

X-Men has gone completely off the rails. The last issue I glanced at had Black Tom as an all-powerful plant creature, a bunch of reject villains giving the X-Men a beating, and Xorn (WASN'T HE REALLY MAGNETO?????) taking off his helmet and sucking Black Tom, some phasing chick who wasn't Shadowcat, and the now-heroic Juggernaut into his cranial black hole?

 

There are indications as I glance at issues that they've been steadily killing off and otherwise writing out characters for a while. What is this, an Avengers book?

 

 

[proditor]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

I think it was X-Men #27 or 29' date=' the original series, Cyclops throws a fit and blasts through a large chunk of a mountainside and then curses his own stupidity.[/quote']

*Chuckles* Lord he's a goob....

 

But you've also hit the ongoing problem with judging power levels. In one issue, he can push a truck and strain or blow up a missile. Next issue, he's blasting through mountains, next issue, back to pushing trucks and straining, so someone gives him an upgrade. I didn't remember the really old stuff, just the GS X-men followed by Jean always telling Logan to back since Scott could blast through mountains. Man what a little tease she was....

[Kristopher]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

And Kitty's little Variable Age Pool is a perfect example of the worst part of the genre. She's 14 forever, then she goes off the college, then she's just 18 again, and then...

 

Why is there so little continuity?

[Lightray]

*Chuckles* Lord he's a goob....

 

But you've also hit the ongoing problem with judging power levels. In one issue, he can push a truck and strain or blow up a missile. Next issue, he's blasting through mountains, next issue, back to pushing trucks and straining, so someone gives him an upgrade. I didn't remember the really old stuff, just the GS X-men followed by Jean always telling Logan to back since Scott could blast through mountains. Man what a little tease she was....

If you pay attention to the comic book physics that Cyclops seems to operate under, he's the most powerful mutant EVAR.

 

His eyes are continually projecting beams of concussive force, yet his head isn't blown off by recoil every time he blinks.

 

His eyes are continually projecting beams of concussive force. Sometimes he gets a little tired.

 

He can put his hand into his beams of concussive force, and block the beams. So... hand off eyes, mountain blown away. hand back on eyes, stops mountain-blowing-away beam of force.

 

I don't even want to think about "ruby quartz" and why his concussive force eyebeams don't just blow his visor away.

 

Cyclops has the power of rubber physics. Things work the way they need to for his powers to be relevant to the story. If you've ever watched Star Trek, you know how useful that power is.

[Superskrull]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

And Kitty's little Variable Age Pool is a perfect example of the worst part of the genre. She's 14 forever, then she goes off the college, then she's just 18 again, and then...

 

Why is there so little continuity?

 

Probably because most writers nowadays like to mark their territory and make sure to knock what others have doen with a given character.

[Agent 13]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

Why is there so little continuity?

Bad editing. That and the constant switching between "The Characters Sell The Books" and "The Hot Talent Sells The Books" attitudes in the front office.

 

Oh, and the fact that apparently the longer you stay in the comics biz, the more likely you are to go totally batshit insane...

[Just A Guy Name]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

Nostalgia may be clouding people's memories of what the original X-Men were really like. Most issues went something like this:

{Reader's Digest version snipped}

Heh, they were kinda formulaic, weren't they? That might have been why the comic went on life support for so long.

 

Nice synopsis, BTW.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

They kept mentioning the actual date of Phoenix' death, and they kept mentioning that Kitty had known her, and that Kitty was (still) 14.

 

Didn't you see her character sheet?

 

LS: Longevity (5 points) Forever 14 (When attending college, she passes herself off as 18.)

 

Besides, teenager mutants not controlling their powers, falling in love, etc. that's fun to watch. I'm not sure I want to see them in their mid-30s.

 

Jubilee: I got fired again, I got upset and set my cubicle on fire.

Kitty: That's nothing, my laptop's hard drive failed because I phased while carrying it.

Jubilee: Yeah, and my love life sucks, when the sparks fly, they really fly.

Kitty: Hey, I still phase through my bed, my boyfriend is still sore at that one.

Bobby: My girlfriend says I'm cold.

Jubilee and Kitty look at him.

Bobby: What? I meant emotionally.

Rogue: My third husband died of a heart attack.

Everyone looks at Rogue.

Rogue: It's not my fault, I told him not to touch me when I'm asleep.

[Rapier]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

Probably because most writers nowadays like to mark their territory and make sure to knock what others have doen with a given character.

Similar to the New Manager Syndrome. You hire a new manager and the first thing they do is completely change everything that has been working very well for DECADES. They do it to prove they are the manager and force other to recognise their authority.

 

It's pretty sad really. They should really have more self respect.

 

Also, think about it. We all have our favourite characters. Now imagine that over the years someone else takes over the writing and does something you don't agree with. When you get control you want to revert the character to how YOU think they should be. Or maybe you have had this daydream for years that Wolverine should really be an alien. You get control and the first thing you do is begin to plant some foreshadows that he's an alien. Eventually you reveal that is, in fact, from another planet. Your dream has come true...the only problem is that there is a future writer screaming and pulling out his hair as her reads and thinking "I can't wait until I get that job, I'm going to fix all this alien nonsense."

[Eyendasky80]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

And that's okay. I think it's a good system. The editorial staff is supposed to act as a check on the truly bad ideas, but they shouldn't stifle new (and possibly controversial) ideas.

 

About Cypher, what if he learns to communicate with electronic devices like Mitchell Hundred from Ex Machina? Or computers? Or everything? That'd be cool, it could be a secondary mutation.

 

About Angel, I've had the same problem trying to write a character sheet on him for a standard point value. I can barely spend 300 points on him before feeling like I'm breaking away from canon.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

A gas gun. He used it during his very brief pre-x-men adventuring career as the Avenging Angel. From the old retcon stories giving expanded origins to the X-men, I believe.

 

Hey, Doug, remember that attempt to play DC Heroes with Jason Kidd?

Jason "I just want a guy who has wings."

You "Well, that only cost him like 40 points. What else can he do?"

Jason "All I want is for him to have wings."

-snickers from other players-

Jason "Um, I guess he could be rich or something."

-more snickers-

insert eye-rolling and my whispered comments about Jason having recreated Angel to Dave

End result, a light brick with wings, since he decided to dump the rest of the points into his Str, Dex & Body stats. Oh, and he was rich.

The basketball player?

[Lightray]

Or maybe you have had this daydream for years that Wolverine should really be an alien. You get control and the first thing you do is begin to plant some foreshadows that he's an alien. Eventually you reveal that is' date=' in fact, from another planet. Your dream has come true...the only problem is that there is a future writer screaming and pulling out his hair as her reads and thinking "I can't wait until I get that job, I'm going to fix all this alien nonsense."[/quote']

OMG. Guy Gardner!

 

About Cypher' date=' what if he learns to communicate with electronic devices like Mitchell Hundred from Ex Machina? Or computers? Or everything? That'd be cool, it could be a secondary mutation.[/quote']

Secondary mutation. *shudder*

 

Anyway, there was a pretty good thread a while back where people discussed how to improve Cypher (and some other non-starters. ColorKid and Arm-Fall-Off Boy and such).

 

About Angel, I've had the same problem trying to write a character sheet on him for a standard point value. I can barely spend 300 points on him before feeling like I'm breaking away from canon.

Ah, that's easy. You just don't stop with 15 pts of Wealth. Add in his Contacts (business & family), Base (huuuuge mansion in Colorado, IIRC), multiple Vehicles (cars, planes, etc.), Followers (working for the family and for the business).

 

Add in skills -- High Society and all those PRE Skills. KS on hoity-toity subjects (Wine Vintages, etc.). High Bureaucratics, Bribery.

 

Flying powers. DCV skill levels. Flying martial arts. Rapid Attack HtH. High PRE & higher COM. High END. Most else at high-end human athlete levels.

 

Round out with a few powers-as-flavor: "Not In The Face!" (Combat Luck). How YOU Doin'?" (skill levels with Persuasion/Seduction). "Big Wad O' Cash (+PRE only for Presence Attacks, Requires Bribery Skill roll).

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

About Cypher' date=' what if he learns to communicate with electronic devices like Mitchell Hundred from Ex Machina? Or computers? Or everything? That'd be cool, it could be a secondary mutation.[/quote']

Actually Cypher was a major computer geek and was described as a "hacker", able to write high end programs, particularly crackers and crypto-breaking software; in the comic book sense at any rate.

 

 

The writers were just too dumb/unimaginative to use Cypher to his fullest potential.

[proditor]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

The basketball player?

There's a basketball player called "The Avenging Angel?"

[Enforcer84]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

There's a basketball player called "The Avenging Angel?"

Jason Kidd you traitor!

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

Actually Cypher was a major computer geek and was described as a "hacker", able to write high end programs, particularly crackers and crypto-breaking software; in the comic book sense at any rate.

 

The writers were just too dumb/unimaginative to use Cypher to his fullest potential.

Well, bear in mind that most people didn't know about the Internet back then. The thing is, if you introduced the character today with his computer hacking power, he'd be a major character ala DC's Oracle. The X-Men would be constantly turning to him for hacking into systems.

 

Cypher's power wasn't just languages, he could also pretty much read any type of computer code/data straight (well, technically he was fused with Warlock at the time but I'm pretty sure that was his end of it). There were some major implications to his power. We had a huge Cypher discussion on another thread.

[Lightray]

Looks like we've had that Cypher discussion a few times. There's this thread here for one. And here's another.

 

Aha. And here's Fix the Weaklings.

[Eyendasky80]

Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever?

 

Boy, he's so popular around here I think it may be time for him to get a run in Exiles with all these new improvements. Beak did, why not Cypher? Someone start a petition and we'll send it to Marvel.