(somehow) realistic Secret IDs

[Kristopher]

Re: (somehow) realistic Secret IDs

 

Forget surveilance. It falls apart long before you get there' date=' usually at the "human intel" level.[/quote']

 

This is, of course, how we "knew" what Iraq was up with with WMD, and prevented 9/11/01, and captured Osama years ago.

 

[sinanju]

Re: (somehow) realistic Secret IDs

 

Example: Contrary to the long-standing claims made by the people selling it as a security panacea' date=' facial recognition systems still pretty much suck at recognizing faces.[/quote']

 

Something which I think gets overlooked a lot when people contemplate computers which can recognize faces or voices, or computers that can respond to spoken commands is...how often do PEOPLE make mistakes at all these things? And we're doing it with brains that have been specialized for those tasks for billions of years.

 

Of course facial recognition software is going to make mistakes. And computers which take verbal orders will sometimes say, "pardon me? what did you ask me to do?" or worse, draw incorrect conclusions as to what you told it to do. (Which is when you hope the computer also has 'common sense' and can recognize that the order it received makes no sense and it asks for clarification.)

 

Nonetheless, I think you're _underestimating_ the effectiveness of surveillance and investigation. Take Spider-Man, for instance. It's fairly clear that--unless he can teleport or something--he lives in the NYC metro area. So you can focus all your efforts there. He wears a more all-concealing costume than a lot of heroes, but you can still get a good idea of his size by studying photographs of him.

 

You can plot Spider-Man sightings by location, time of day, day of the week; do any patterns pop up? That narrows your focus even more. You question anyone who has interacted with him. What can you learn of his accent, conversational level, choice of words or slang? What does this tell you?

 

What about "crime" scenes. He's been injured. His costume has been torn. Any blood or other CSI-style evidence? Maybe.

 

Throw in aerial surveillance or satellite photography (if it is the US Government or equivalent doing the investigation). If you can spot Spider-Man appearing or disappearing in a particular area at a given time, you're a step closer.

 

Yes, you might well end up not identifying him. That can happen. People can remain unidentified and at large for years or decades sometimes despite the best efforts of the authorities. But not always. And if you're applying this effort to numerous heroes (or villains), you will identify some of them.

[Kristopher]

Re: (somehow) realistic Secret IDs

 

Something which I think gets overlooked a lot when people contemplate computers which can recognize faces or voices, or computers that can respond to spoken commands is...how often do PEOPLE make mistakes at all these things? And we're doing it with brains that have been specialized for those tasks for billions of years.

 

Of course facial recognition software is going to make mistakes. And computers which take verbal orders will sometimes say, "pardon me? what did you ask me to do?" or worse, draw incorrect conclusions as to what you told it to do. (Which is when you hope the computer also has 'common sense' and can recognize that the order it received makes no sense and it asks for clarification.)

 

Nonetheless, I think you're _underestimating_ the effectiveness of surveillance and investigation. Take Spider-Man, for instance. It's fairly clear that--unless he can teleport or something--he lives in the NYC metro area. So you can focus all your efforts there. He wears a more all-concealing costume than a lot of heroes, but you can still get a good idea of his size by studying photographs of him.

 

You can plot Spider-Man sightings by location, time of day, day of the week; do any patterns pop up? That narrows your focus even more. You question anyone who has interacted with him. What can you learn of his accent, conversational level, choice of words or slang? What does this tell you?

 

What about "crime" scenes. He's been injured. His costume has been torn. Any blood or other CSI-style evidence? Maybe.

 

Throw in aerial surveillance or satellite photography (if it is the US Government or equivalent doing the investigation). If you can spot Spider-Man appearing or disappearing in a particular area at a given time, you're a step closer.

 

Yes, you might well end up not identifying him. That can happen. People can remain unidentified and at large for years or decades sometimes despite the best efforts of the authorities. But not always. And if you're applying this effort to numerous heroes (or villains), you will identify some of them.

 

First problem...you can't actually spot and track individual people via satellite surveilance.

 

A lot of what I read on this thread makes me think that people are overestimating the effectiveness of surveilance and intelligence. There are spies and serial killers that go years or even decades without being caught -- and agencies like the FBI have serious reasons to catch those people.

 

A typical superhuman has movement and/or stealth abilities that real spies and serial killers could only dream of, and most of the heroic ones aren't really giving law enforcement and intel agencies much motivation to divert their precious resources from more pressing matters.

[caris]

Re: (somehow) realistic Secret IDs

 

One thing to keep in mind when it comes to the forensic evidence aspect of it. The people that find the finger print or the DNA sample, need something to compare it to. So they have Liberty Lad's right index fingerprint, that means that they now need to have access to a database with Lenny Lessman's fingerprints in it (identified as belonging to Lenny) for it to do them any good, or a reason to finger print Mr. Lessman.

 

Even on CSI, it usually is a matter of the foresnics leading to picking the one of the big two: Motive and Opportunity.

 

One thing that I think that would be useful in this kind of investigation would be a forensic psychologist (aka: a profiler). There was an issue of Legends of the Dark Knight, where a psychologist made a profile of Batman, that I liked parts of.

[zornwil]

Re: (somehow) realistic Secret IDs

 

Yes' date=' we all saw how well that worked for Robert "Mr. Incredible" Parr in "The Incredibles." Nobody ever noticed this mild mannered pencil pushing insurance adjuster was nigh on seven feet tall and had muscles that made the Governator look like a girly-man.[/quote']

Maybe that was due to the government's mind manipulation abilities?

 

(Not seriously suggesting it, though it was intrigueing that they referenced "erasing memories", suggesting that in the Incredibles, like any good super-world, the government has some pretty intense capabilities)

[Agent 13]

Re: (somehow) realistic Secret IDs

 

(Not seriously suggesting it' date=' though it was intrigueing that they referenced "erasing memories", suggesting that in the Incredibles, like any good super-world, the government has some pretty intense capabilities)[/quote'] And, like the real world, it was cheaper to develop memory erasers than to pay out insurance settlements...

[levi]

Re: (somehow) realistic Secret IDs

 

The effectiveness of surveilance has been exagerated by its proponents' date=' especially those selling it.[/quote']

 

The TV Show CSI entertaining as it is exagerates the effectiveness of forensics on solving crime as well. Much less discovering Secret IDs.

[Superskrull]

Re: (somehow) realistic Secret IDs

 

Frankly, assuming you are SHIELD or some such agency, Spider-man's ID wouldn't be that difficult to deduce. He first appears as entertainer. Following his involvement in the capture of the killer of Ben Parker, his public appearances, Daily Bugle notwithstanding, are all as a superhero despite certain unlucky encounters with the law. His public behavior fits that of an insecure juvenile coping with some sort of guilt possibly relating to Parker's death, such as using sarcastic humor as a verbal defense. Spider-man is found at Mid-vale High too often to not be connected to people there.

Pictures of him appear with ridiculous regularity taken by Peter Parker, an obviously amateur talent at photography. The shots are often at unusual angles or timed to coincide with dramatic scenes. Parker himself will never be seen taking these pictures at any time the investigators encounter Spider-man. Closer surveillance is insanely difficult to pursue as both Parker and Spider-man are astoundingly good at evading or losing tails. Shouldn't take long to connect the dots and then Nick Fury has another superhuman he can easily contact if needed. Meanwhile, Spider-man gets one of those sinking sensations and spends weeks looking over his shoulder due to low-level nervousness from his spider-sense tingling faintly.

[Red Knight]

Re: (somehow) realistic Secret IDs

 

Well, speaking from a law enforcement perspective, CSI is nice and all... but OMG is it hyped!!!!

OK.. you get a print... still have to compare it to a print on file... DNA.. congrats.. unless you have a sample to compare it to... You have to wait to get a suspect to compare it to. You might be able to find some tidbits like sex and certain racial characteristics but that's all.

 

A few co-workers and I sat down one day and tried to figure out if a vigillante could operate without being caught. We figured NO. I won't go into all the details but needless to say, cellphones and the internet played a HUGE part in the demise. Superhuman abilities are another matter. As has been stated previously, super movement, shapeshifting and the like would be great.

Personally, I think that psychic powers lend themselves to hiding your abilties the most. I had a character that when he "transformed" he actually created a psychic self. A being of energy that was seperate from the user. He told people that he was narcaleptic and that he sometimes fell asleep. In truth it was his mind switching over to the other body. The psi-self could appear and disappear at will and had no DNA or other evidence to leave behind.

 

If any of you watch Justice League Unlimited you will know this... In a recent episode, Batman confronts a CADMUS representative and gets up in her face. She backs down but then warns Batman to not stick his nose in.. The threat is then finished with, ".....Rich boy". Let us not underestimate the fact that the government could find out, but that it is more advantageous to let you run around than to stop you.

[sinanju]

Re: (somehow) realistic Secret IDs

 

First problem...you can't actually spot and track individual people via satellite surveilance.

 

Satellite surveillance or aerial surveillance, I believe I said.

 

This isn't just a matter of magical tech. All the high tech equipment is simply a tool. The real advantage of any government agency trying to identify Spider-Man (or whoever they're studying) is manpower. Put enough minds on a project, hoovering up every scrap of possible information, and your chances of digging up the truth go up dramatically.

 

It's possible that you'll fail to find or identify the guy. That happens in the real world. But success happens too.

[SKJAM!]

Re: (somehow) realistic Secret IDs

 

Yes' date=' we all saw how well that worked for Robert "Mr. Incredible" Parr in "The Incredibles." Nobody ever noticed this mild mannered pencil pushing insurance adjuster was nigh on seven feet tall and had muscles that made the Governator look like a girly-man.[/quote']

 

Because they weren't looking for him. He just says something like, "Yeah, I used to play football at Generic U until my knee blew out," the person he's talking to nods, and the conversation goes on.

 

Once someone actually *looked* for Mr. Incredible, *boom*, there he was.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: (somehow) realistic Secret IDs

 

Nonetheless, I think you're _underestimating_ the effectiveness of surveillance and investigation. Take Spider-Man, for instance. It's fairly clear that--unless he can teleport or something--he lives in the NYC metro area. So you can focus all your efforts there.

 

Okay. Now we're down to only 10 million+ people. Let's half that, because we're talking about Spider-Man. Ten bucks says he's not Aunt May.

 

He wears a more all-concealing costume than a lot of heroes, but you can still get a good idea of his size by studying photographs of him.

 

He's about average size. If he was 7 feet tall, had been operating in L.A., and then suddenly, a few months ago, appeared in Miami and was talking about how big a jerk Kobe Bryant is, you'd have a few nice clues. Spider-Man? He's, umm... pretty average. Note that you're assuming Spidey isn't wearing elevator jammies to make him taller, or that he had a mask with padding to make the shape of his head seem different, too.

 

You can plot Spider-Man sightings by location, time of day, day of the week; do any patterns pop up? That narrows your focus even more. You question anyone who has interacted with him. What can you learn of his accent, conversational level, choice of words or slang? What does this tell you?

 

Well, accent-wise, he's generic whitey. He's extremely talkative (note: Peter Parker is not). Patterns of movement? Well, given the speed with which he moves, and how much greater it is than your average New Yorker, I don't think people will be able to give a whole lot of information on him. You're also going to get a lot of conflicting reports, especially on him, due to his method of travel (Spidey doesn't go in straight lines--he whips around buildings and goes in all sorts of crazy directions).

 

What about "crime" scenes. He's been injured. His costume has been torn. Any blood or other CSI-style evidence? Maybe.

 

"Hey, we've got Spidey's DNA. I think."

"What do you mean, 'you think'?"

"Well, we saw him get stabbed by some wack-job he was fighting on the side of the Empire State Building. We found some blood on the ground in an alley not too far away."

"Does it match the sample we found last month when we found blood on the roof of that parking garage a few hours after Spidey stopped those bank robbers?"

"No."

"Does the DNA match anyone we have on file?"

"...No."

 

Throw in aerial surveillance or satellite photography (if it is the US Government or equivalent doing the investigation). If you can spot Spider-Man appearing or disappearing in a particular area at a given time, you're a step closer.

 

Well, maybe. Until Spidey notices what you're doing. Then he gives the helicopter the finger and swings down into the subway.

 

Yes, you might well end up not identifying him. That can happen. People can remain unidentified and at large for years or decades sometimes despite the best efforts of the authorities. But not always. And if you're applying this effort to numerous heroes (or villains), you will identify some of them.

 

So basically, what we've agreed to is that, if the US government poured a lot of investigative resources into finding Spider-Man, they might figure out who he was. So? They've got other things to worry about. Like figuring out who the Green Goblin is. Most governments should be concerned about the superhuman villains who want to blow up the world, not the heroes who rescue cats from trees.

[Superskrull]

Re: (somehow) realistic Secret IDs

 

So basically' date=' what we've agreed to is that, if the US government poured a lot of investigative resources into finding Spider-Man, they might figure out who he was. So? They've got other things to worry about. Like figuring out who the Green Goblin is. Most governments should be concerned about the superhuman villains who want to blow up the world, not the heroes who rescue cats from trees.[/quote']

 

Now you know full well that since the superheroes are the protagonists of the story, that only leaves three roles for the government.

The government (intelligence agencies, overfunded research labs, Congress ad naseum) operates as a victim.

"Aiie!! Dr Maskface has stolen the experimental McGuffin! Help us, Jingoistic Avenger!"

 

They can be window dressing.

After escaping the CIA's cyberassassin program, Switchblade Fist swore he would dedicate himself to A) protecting the innocent scorin' phat bank by playing badass-for-hire or C) getting sloshed and rampaging through Campaign City assaulting parking meters.

 

They can be the antagonists. "I see Operation: Hatecrime is entering the final stages. Prep the Atomic Robo-Hunters to eliminate these interfering superheroes. Once they're been eliminated, the Hidden Masters shall trigger Second Impact (or something like that) and get down to some serious Evil Deeds."

 

If the government was genuinely useful and benevolent in these stories, they'd have simply started paying Peter Parker and the rest so that they could operate with full legal sanction and without fear of 'gangland reprisal' or political maneuvering. That'd take all the fun out of it.

[OddHat]

Re: (somehow) realistic Secret IDs

 

If the government was genuinely useful and benevolent in these stories' date=' they'd have simply started paying Peter Parker and the rest so that they could operate with full legal sanction and without fear of 'gangland reprisal' or political maneuvering. That'd take all the fun out of it.[/quote']

 

I've run several campaigns where the government pays Supers and assigns them to departments and teams. No loss of fun, no loss of drama. Works fine.

[incrdbil]

Re: (somehow) realistic Secret IDs

 

If the government has metahuman level resources cracking Identitities--detects, mind scan..secret ID's may be very fragile. However, such resources then become the target of angry metahumans.....

[Superskrull]

Re: (somehow) realistic Secret IDs

 

I've run several campaigns where the government pays Supers and assigns them to departments and teams. No loss of fun' date=' no loss of drama. Works fine. [/quote']

 

Probably quite true in games & sounds like a good secondary hook to me. I was mostly thinking that in the comics, they seem rather unwilling to let go of the govt as antagonist concept go. 'Sides, they delight in having the intelligence agencies have knowledge of the heroes' IDs, often just as an aside. I'm often disturbed at how may times Nick Fury has revealed that SHIELD already knew who a given hero was. Seems odd considering how pisspoor they do at tracking villains.

[Trebuchet]

Re: (somehow) realistic Secret IDs

 

Probably quite true in games & sounds like a good secondary hook to me. I was mostly thinking that in the comics' date=' they seem rather unwilling to let go of the govt as antagonist concept go. 'Sides, they delight in having the intelligence agencies have knowledge of the heroes' IDs, often just as an aside. I'm often disturbed at how may times Nick Fury has revealed that SHIELD already knew who a given hero was. Seems odd considering how pisspoor they do at tracking villains.[/quote']Actually that does make a certain amount of sense. Superheroes tend to be very active at all times stopping various crimes and crises, thus giving the authorities that much more to work with. Supervillians OTOH may only appear to perform their latest heist or scheme, and then prompty disappear back into the woodwork until thier next caper. Look at how long it took the FBI to identify the Unabomber. It took something like 18 years, and that's only because his own brother had become suspicious and went to the authorities.

[OddHat]

Re: (somehow) realistic Secret IDs

 

Actually that does make a certain amount of sense. Superheroes tend to be very active at all times stopping various crimes and crises' date=' thus giving the authorities that much more to work with. Supervillians OTOH may only appear to perform their latest heist or scheme, and then prompty disappear back into the woodwork until thier next caper. Look at how long it took the FBI to identify the Unabomber. It took something like 18 years, and that's only because his own brother had become suspicious and went to the authorities.[/quote']

 

David Earl Franklin Zerstoiten, Florida plumbing fixture salesman, shocked the world last Tuesday when he revealed to police his suspicions that his brother Albert may be Doctor Destroyer!

"We always knew the boy weren't right" said Zerstoiten.

[Bucky]

Re: (somehow) realistic Secret IDs

 

For a Silver Age Secret ID to be plausible' date=' we must either assume retro tech (the setting is in the 60-70s), or that the secret is really known by those with the means to know but kept secret (the char has ties with law enforcement/intelligence/the military, and they find it more useful to keep the Secret ID safe). I love lines like Nick Fury casually saying Thor "Of course we have been knowing your Secret ID for years; we are a *competent* intelligence agency". [/quote']

 

This gets into something that has kinda bugged me about secret identities in the comics. If Lois Lane is such a dingbat that she could not figure out Clark was Superman, what did he ever see in her, and how the heck did she get a job as a reporter?

 

It makes more sense to me, (and this is my opinion only) that such close friends and relations would know the supes identity, but choose to keep that fact secret. First off, is the realization that keeping the secret allows their friend to live a normal life, avoid lawsuits, not be constantly harrassed by press, nut jobs, sychopants and the like. It helps the supe maintain some connection to the human condition. (Heck maybe Lois (and Perry and even Jimmy) figured it out a long time ago, but never told Clark.)

[zornwil]

Re: (somehow) realistic Secret IDs

 

(snip) (Heck maybe Lois (and Perry and even Jimmy) figured it out a long time ago' date=' but never told Clark.)[/quote']

 

If done without post-modern irony or such, it would be really cool to see the Silver Age Lois and Jimmy revisited with a sort of "from their lens, never before told" version, where it's exactly this, and they cover for Clark and such. Too many writers would turn it into an opportunity to moralize or deconstruct, but it could be done as something that's almost realistic and still sweet.

[Korvar]

Re: (somehow) realistic Secret IDs

 

If done without post-modern irony or such' date=' it would be really cool to see the Silver Age Lois and Jimmy revisited with a sort of "from their lens, never before told" version, where it's exactly this, and they cover for Clark and such. Too many writers would turn it into an opportunity to moralize or deconstruct, but it could be done as something that's almost realistic and still sweet.[/quote']

 

Reminds me of Spider-Man, where it appears that most of the people in his life already knew his secret ID before he told them - Mary Jane, Aunt May (twice, it appears)...

[Bucky]

Re: (somehow) realistic Secret IDs

 

If done without post-modern irony or such' date=' it would be really cool to see the Silver Age Lois and Jimmy revisited with a sort of "from their lens, never before told" version, where it's exactly this, and they cover for Clark and such. Too many writers would turn it into an opportunity to moralize or deconstruct, but it could be done as something that's almost realistic and still sweet.[/quote']

I don't know from deconstruction, but it could be rationalized pretty easily. Look, guys like Superman are pratically God. Power corrupts and the only way to keep his "feet on the ground" would be for him to maintain some kind of human contact, to have a life outside of his super hero identity. Otherwise, you risk him losing it, of turning into a villian who could wreck a lot of devestation.

Now, it does give me a rather nasty idea. Suppose you are Jimmy. A crisis happens that looks like its a job for Superman. You are standing next to Clark when you get word of this. Depending on the severity of the crisis, it might be fun making it difficult for Clark to get away from you for his quick change.

 

"Where ya going Clark?"

"Um... Doctor's appointment."

"Oh I hope it isn't serious. I'll tag along in case you need a ride afterwards." etc.