My first attempt at a Fantasy HERO mage...

[Yamo]

Here's my first attempt at designing a Heroic magic-using character for HERO on the standard 75 +75 points. I managed to start out with a fairly useful selection of spells, but I do still have some concerns over the slow growth in this area that the "single spell = single Power" system can often mean...

 

I'm still pretty satisfied with the character as written, though.

 

I have only the genesis of a backstory so far, but the stats are complete.

 

Name: Ziran Reilore

Player: Will Mistretta

Race: Human

Gender: Male

 

Characteristics:

 

STR: 10, Roll: 11-, Lift 100 kg, 2d6

DEX: 14. Roll: 12-, OCV:5/DCV:5

CON: 13, Roll: 12-

BODY: 10, Roll: 11-

INT: 18, Roll: 13-

EGO: 14, Roll: 12-, ECV: 5

PRE: 18, Roll: 13-, PRE Attack: 4d6

COM: 10, Roll: 11-

 

PD: 5

ED: 5

SPD: 3

REC: 6

END: 30

STUN: 24

Phases: 4, 8, 12

 

Movement:

 

Running: 6"/12"

Flight: 6"/12"

Leaping: 2"/4"

Swimming: 2"4

 

Total Characteristics Cost: 59

 

Skills:

 

+1 with Short Swords

+2 with Magebolt

Analyze Magic 13-

KS: Arcane Lore 13-

KS: History 13-

Languages: Literacy

Languages: Elvish (Basic Conversation)

Power: Magic (INT-Based) 13-

Stealth 12-

WF: Blades

 

Total Skills Cost: 24

 

Powers:

 

Magebolt: RKA 2d6 (30 Active Points), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Total Cost: 20 points

 

Spellbreaking: Dispel Magic 10d6, Any Magic Power One At A Time (+1/4) (37 Active Points), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Concentration (-1/4), Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2), Total Cost: 16 points

 

Arcane Winds: Flight 6" (12 Active Points), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Concentration (-1/4), Total Cost: 7 points

 

Torchlight: Sight Group Images, Increased Size (4" Radius; +1/2) (15 Active Points), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Concentration (-1/4), No Range (-1/2), Only To Create Light (-1), Total Cost: 5 points

 

Magesense: Detect Magic (Considered Part Of Mental Group), Discriminatory (10 Active Points), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Concentration (Must Concentrate Throughout; -1/2), Extra Time (1 Turn; -1 1/4), Total Cost: 3 points

 

Mystic Shield: Force Field (5 PD/5 ED), (12 Active Points), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Total Cost: 7 points

 

Vanishing: Invisibility to Sight Group (20 Active Points), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Concentration (-1/4), Extra Time (Full Phase; -1/2), Total Cost: 9 points

 

Total Powers Cost: 67

 

Disadvantages:

 

Disinctive Features: Long Scar On Left Side Of Face (Concealable With Disguise Skill Or Major Effort, Noticed And Recognizable, Feature Detectable By Commonly Used Senses), 10 points

 

Distinctive Features: Mystic Aura (Not Concealable, Always Noticed, Detectable Only With Unusual Senses), 10 points

 

Hunted: Former Master's Killer (8-, More Powerful, Extensive NCI, Capture/Kill), 20 points

 

Psychological Limitation: Curious About All Things Magical (Common, Moderate), 10 points

 

Psychological Limitation: Obsessed With Obtaining Vengence On Killer Of Former Master (Common, Strong), 15 points

 

Social Limitation: Feared And Distrusted By The Superstitious (Frequently 11-, Minor), 10 points

 

Total Disadvantages: 75

 

Equipment:

 

Short sword (1d6 Killing Damage, STR Min: 10)

Leather backpack

Waterskin

Whetstone

Bedroll

Extra set of clothing

Quill pen

Vial of ink

Scroll case

Ten sheets of parchment

Journal

Silver amulet previously worn by deceased master

 

Total Character Cost: 150

[Chris Goodwin]

This is not (repeat, not, NOT) intended as a flame, personal attack, offensive message, etc.

 

But.... it looks like you've built a 75+75 point energy projector.

 

I would go back and finish up the backstory first, then come up with something on how his system of magic works, without reference to game mechanics. Then go back and build his spells.

 

I've played characters like this and enjoyed them, for a while. But I didn't really have a sense that what I was doing with them was playing a spellcaster; I was playing a character who had powers X, Y, and Z.

 

Those criticisms utterly aside, you could reduce the spell costs with more Limitations (perhaps tied in to your system of magic -- no Requires Magic Skill Roll on any of them?)

 

Maybe what I'm trying to get at is this: what is it about this collection of stats that makes this character a wizard and not a superhero on a diet?

[Yamo]

Maybe what I'm trying to get at is this: what is it about this collection of stats that makes this character a wizard and not a superhero on a diet?

 

Essentially nothing. That's the point.

 

The character is built for my preferred style of fantasy campaign: A very "fire and forget" D&D/random fantasy computer RPG one where magic is quick, powerful, and predictable. More Limitations would hinder my ability to capture that feel in HERO.

 

In particular, I dislike RSR because it makes magic less than fully predictable (X doesn't always cause Y). I dislike the idea of a supposedly powerful wizard regularly looking like a doofus when he waves his hands, chants words of power, and...nothing happens because he failed his Skill Roll.

 

Even if I didn't prefer D&D/Final Fantasy-type magic in my games, I would still have to ask: What source material does that emulate? Do Gandalf's spells ever just fizzle?

 

Anyway, his magic works like I like magic to work in my fantasy games. That's the important thing, since he's my character, after all.

[Starwolf]

If you aren't using the RSR then why buy the POWER: Magic (based on Int) 13- ?

 

That is the only inconsistency I see. I would either dump the power or add RSR to the spells.

[Yamo]

If you aren't using the RSR then why buy the POWER: Magic (based on Int) 13- ?

 

"Power stunts", of course. Or "cantrips" to use the typical fantasy gaming lingo.

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by Yamo

The character is built for my preferred style of fantasy campaign: A very "fire and forget" D&D/random fantasy computer RPG one where magic is quick, powerful, and predictable. More Limitations would hinder my ability to capture that feel in HERO.

 

I can't argue with that.

[TheDude2371]

Okay, maybe a couple of suggestions here...

 

1) I would think that spells cost END, even the Detects. I would remove the Reduced END modifier on the spells. They'd cost a bit less, or you could get a little more punch in them.

 

2) I agree with Starwolf on the RSR limitation. That's sort of been a little peeve of mine with some systems, that magic will always go off as planned. (Just for grins, a Side Effect for some spells here and there would add to the dangers of magic.)

 

3) You've got some of the more standard limitations in there, namely Gestures, Incantations, and Concentration. I'd almost want to throw in Extra Time, at least Full Phase, especially for some of the more powerful effects. Giving it ET: Full Phase would still make it quick; the caster just can't do much else in his active phase.

 

As stated previously, it's your system. Do with it as you will.

[bjbrown]

This looks like a serviceable battle mage for a Heroic game. One very good attack that is superior to just about everything but a very heavy long bow (and even then, mage bolt is saving 1 END per shot). The defense is equivalent to chain mail but without the endurance problems. Invisibility gives you some defense when the going gets rough in combat and you need to avoid being hit, plus it has utility uses as well. A useful movement spell, a sensory-helping spell, and the standard detect and dispel magic.

 

Because you chose not to save points on spells through multiple limitations, you don't have any points for some more exotic things (flashes, drains, the dreaded BOECV Entangle). But if easy, reliable magic is the most important thing to you, that's fine. This character has all the major bases covered.

 

If you're adhering to the character ability guidelines table on pg. 15, the cap on rPD is 5, so I'd reduce the 6/6 Force Field to 5/5.

 

I can't see a reason to go with 15 Ego rather than 14 Ego (which still gets you ECV 5).

 

I feel like you're a little low on skills for a Heroic character.

 

One idea to add limitations and save points is to use variable limitations. All your spells could have material components (OAF), but if you find yourself without the material components for whatever reason, you can still cast your spell but it's more taxing (x3 Increased END). A variable limitation of either OAF or x3 END will get you -½ extra to each spell. Decent point savings, and you've spread your risk out.

[sbarron]

Rather than allowing mages to put all spells into a MP, which would be very cheap, you could also limit MPs to groups of related spells. Offensive Spells, Defensive Spells, Movement spells are some that pop to mind. Here is your character's offensive spells in a "Offensive Spells" MP, with a couple extra spells thrown in. You'll note that you would save points with this version, even with the extra spells and the higher power level. And adding new offensive spells would be cheaper, addressing your concerns for advancement.

 

25 Offensive Spells: Multipower, 37-point reserve, all slots: (37 Active Points); Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)

2u 1) Magebolt: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6+1 (vs. ED) (35 Active Points)

2u 2) Mageblast: Energy Blast 7d6 (vs. ED) (35 Active Points)

2u 3) Piercing Energy Arrow : Killing Attack - Ranged 1 1/2d6 (vs. ED), Armor Piercing x1 (+1/2) (37 Active Points)

2u 4) Spellbreaking: Dispel 10d6: Any Magic, Expanded Effect (One At A Time; +1/4) (37 Active Points)

 

The Ultimate super mage had a large section devoted to many Specific Spell MPs. So rather than just an Offensive Spells MP, you might go for "The Flames of Venus" MP. This MP could have any spells in it that had a fire sfx, but wouldn't help much for healing, communication, mind spells, etc. The GM would need to oversee this to avoid abuse, but it's another way to go.

 

Just kicking out ideas, here. If you can do it in D&D, you can do it in Hero. You just have to find the balance that's right for your game.

[sbarron]

And by the way, the mage you created is completely playable at 150 pts. He just doesn't have as many spells as most players would like to play, myself included. That's why I think some sort of power framework is in order. Though which one is up to you.

[Legendsmiths]

Having played in many FH campaigns with no special magic mechanics, the mage you've created is typical. It sounds like that is what you are going for, however I just want to share that essentially most every mage would be like this, especially using standard END rules.

 

Combat begins, the mage throws up his FF, Flys out of harms way and then starts dishin' out the love. He's really just a dark age superhero, and for me at least that got old pretty quick. YMMV, I just want to provide some anecdotes for what you are getting into.

 

This is definitely a flash-bang type mage in a world, it seems, where magic simply is, and the metaphysics concerning its use are either unknown or uninteresting to its denizens.

[coach]

It looks good, but I'm just wondering why you spent points on stuff you can do with mundane items of no points. You have the 2d6 magebolt, but that's not really any different than a heavy longbow. Sure, it is defended by ED, so you may get a few more points through, but most FH characters/monsters have nearly the same PD/ED. In terms of combat effectiveness, I would think that you would do better to take those 20 points and drop them into STR, SPD, and DEX, and the necessary WF, and just use a bow. And those are all useful in other situations, too. Or, if you want to keep it more Magic-y, use those points to buy and Aid to those CHA.

 

And the magelight spell, too. Why not just pick up a torch or lantern. Sure, it's only 4 points, but with 150, every point counts. I have always found it most effective as a mage to not spend points on stuff you can get for free.

[tiger]

Originally posted by sbarron

And by the way, the mage you created is completely playable at 150 pts. He just doesn't have as many spells as most players would like to play, myself included. That's why I think some sort of power framework is in order. Though which one is up to you.

 

Yes but if your a starting mage what are you doing with a large number of spells?

[tiger]

Originally posted by coach

It looks good, but I'm just wondering why you spent points on stuff you can do with mundane items of no points. You have the 2d6 magebolt, but that's not really any different than a heavy longbow. Sure, it is defended by ED, so you may get a few more points through, but most FH characters/monsters have nearly the same PD/ED. In terms of combat effectiveness, I would think that you would do better to take those 20 points and drop them into STR, SPD, and DEX, and the necessary WF, and just use a bow. And those are all useful in other situations, too.

 

Why does a mages spell have to be more powerful. Look at magic missle in D&D it's just a autofire dagger

 

And the magelight spell, too. Why not just pick up a torch or lantern. Sure, it's only 4 points, but with 150, every point counts. I have always found it most effective as a mage to not spend points on stuff you can get for free.

 

Seems to me the Gandolf used it in the move. Most mages in any story you pick up used similar abilities

[tiger]

I like the right up myself. I prefer mages buy spells seperately. I have looked into allowing MP, EC & VPP. The problem is in affect you merely allowing players to crunch all the points the can at the expensive of the campaign

 

example:

For a framework mage to be effective he would have to have a defense frame & an offensive frame. This would mean that he would have several offensive spells and several defensive spells. most players would also want some middle ground spells. Detects, flights, aids etc.

 

As a GM I have a problem with a starting mage fresh out of the school having access to numerious spells. I also limit the starting damage os spells to within 2 DC of the most potent weapon available to the players. So if a 2d6K sword is the best weapon then a mages attack can only be 2/12d6K.

 

It is illogical to me for a starting mage to be able to throw powerful spells. That comes later.

 

Now I have will admit that I have only looked at the frameworks a bit. I'd have to see a complete character before I'd say noway in heck.

[sbarron]

Originally posted by tiger

As a GM I have a problem with a starting mage fresh out of the school having access to numerious spells. I also limit the starting damage os spells to within 2 DC of the most potent weapon available to the players. So if a 2d6K sword is the best weapon then a mages attack can only be 2/12d6K.

 

It is illogical to me for a starting mage to be able to throw powerful spells. That comes later.

 

The whole idea of "starting mage fresh out of school" is your idea of a starting campaign. That doesn't meant that it is the only way of doing things. I'd rather that my "starting" mages had enough spells that they aren't one trick ponies, with one attack, one defence, etc. And as far as increasing power, if a character has to buy a new spell in a point buy system, it will take them forever to get a new one, much less several or a really powerful one. Particularly if they are not willing save a lot of points with limitations. The cost, at least to me, seems prohibitive.

 

Yamo's mage got a 2d6 RKA for 20pts. A 2d6 AE RKA with his limits would cost 40pts. So he has to be a 190pt character before he could even consider buying this spell. I don't know what you mean by more powerful coming later, but I don't know too many players who are willing to wait that long for one spell that isn't even that powerful. At least with the framework, each additional spell doesn't cost much and you only have to pay the points for higher active cost spells once, when you increase the MP. To me that's easily preferable to paying for each spell in turn in the point buy system.

 

This is all just a matter of taste. We obviously have very different ideas about how a mage should look and at what rate they should advance in their magical arts. I understand the concerns that some have expressed recently concerning magic, and I think balance can be found with the MP. Though exactly how it is balanced is up to each GM. YMMV.

[Talon]

Originally posted by coach

It looks good, but I'm just wondering why you spent points on stuff you can do with mundane items of no points.

 

Unlike real items, his spells can't be confiscated or spotted (by non-magical means); his light can't be blown out by wind or rain, etc.. Depending on the campaign, that can be a very large advantage.

[tiger]

Originally posted by sbarron

Yamo's mage got a 2d6 RKA for 20pts. A 2d6 AE RKA with his limits would cost 40pts. So he has to be a 190pt character before he could even consider buying this spell. I don't know what you mean by more powerful coming later, but I don't know too many players who are willing to wait that long for one spell that isn't even that powerful.

 

Yes but unlike other game system EP directly effects your character. If you get 3-4 EP a game then after 5 adventures or so you have your new spell.

 

The only way I'd be willing, at this point, to allow a MP is with a small reserve. Having a mage having access to 8+ spells that have a active cost of over 25+ points just seems to much.

 

And as you said 1 point poof new spell. 1 point poof new spell. You get 3 EP from a run thats 3 spells at a 10 point ultra or 1 at 20 & 1 at 10. That makes even low "level" mages to powerful.

 

I'm not even sure I'd allow veteran mages use the concept.

 

 

While MP & EC or VPPs work well for superheros, they seem to unbalance things just to much to me. Like I said I'd have to see it played to make a finial judgement, but looking at the numbers it favors the mages to much.

[sbarron]

Originally posted by tiger

While MP & EC or VPPs work well for superheros, they seem to unbalance things just to much to me. Like I said I'd have to see it played to make a finial judgement, but looking at the numbers it favors the mages to much.

 

If the PC is left completely unchecked to buy spells as they see fit, then I agree with you completely. That's why I think the GM needs to develop some sort of system to check the growth and acquisition of spells, without seeming to just be hamstringing character growth.

 

See my comment here in Yamo's HELLLPPP!!! thread: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2488&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

[bjbrown]

From an entirely number-crunching perspective, the 2d6 RKA does waste some points, as compared to picking up a very heavy long bow. However, you're not really talking about the entire 20 points being wasted on something he could get for free with equipment, because to use the very heavy long bow (the Fantasy Hero version), he'd need to spend 9 points on STR to meet the STR Min, 1 point on the Weapon Familiarity, and at least a few extra points of END to make up for the extra 1 END per shot he'd be using with very heavy long bow. So on that kind of comparison, you're talking less than 10 pts. "wasted" because the player wants the character to do what he thinks a mage should do.

 

Though I can't find the rule off-hand, I seem to remember that a firing a bow puts the attacker at half DCV, whereas the mage bolt would not have this problem. That's a very significant advantage for the points.

[AnotherSkip]

there are also some other options that can make spells better than bows.

 

For example:

either Environmental Control OR Negative Skill Levels applied to an area,Only Vs Real Ranged Weapons. Sfx? High Winds.

[MrKinister]

Good Mage

 

When I run FH games I always think of the PCs as "established heroes". Unlike the old stand-by, D&D, where the concept of a "beginning" character is one of low skill and experience, FH heroic characters are supposed to be already fully developed. These guys have 150 pts more than your regular chump at 0 points, and are still pretty competent when compared to your experienced regulars, around 20 to 50 pts. So why should a FH wizard not be able to kick ass when casting his spells? He's a 150 pt character!

 

This is where I find the concept of the "beginning" wizard in a FH hero game to be out of place.

 

But to stick to the point, this character write up is largely fine. It fits the style of the creator, and if he's enjoying it, then more power to him. I sure won't tell him how to play his character.

 

I will agree, though, that perhaps a few more skills to round out the character might come in handy, perhaps something related to his childhood, before he became a wizard. After that, all points ought to be funneled into wizardly pursuits. If he had no weapons training, and learned to use his "brain" instead of his "brawn", then the concept is quite on target.

 

Looks OK to me. Ready to play.

[Talon]

Originally posted by Yamo

Do Gandalf's spells ever just fizzle?

 

I am compelled to point out that Gandalf is not a mortal spellcaster.

[tesuji]

True gandalf is not a mortal wizard, but, if we look to fantasy magic and spellcasters in literature and meida as at least some sort of reference material for the creation of systems of magic in games, his question is valid and as of yet still unanswered.

 

Of the various references we can cite, what is the rough population of these categories of fantasy wizards/mages/sorcerers...

 

Category 1: Their spells NEVER fail.

 

Category 2: Their spells never fail unless directly countered by enemy actions, such as a strike timed to coincide with the casting or other such directed disruption.

 

Category 3: Their spells only fail as a plot device as in "What do you mean my daughter is not a suitable virgin sacrifice? "

 

Category 4: Their spells sometime fail on a random basis for no obvious reason.

 

Now, my votes would put categories 1-3 as taken to gether comprising over 95% or more of the fantasy wizards i recall. As a matter of fact, the members in category 4 are almost exlusively the " "movice" mage or "apprentice" mage suddenly thrown well in above his head" stories and not anything dealing with "experienced" or "capable" mages or heroes.

 

What about you?

 

Do your references differ?

 

Did I miss a category?

[Talon]

Sssh, you're messing up my pedantry!