FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

[RDU Neil]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

The reasons for the floundering are not important [though I have my own opinions about it which I have stated in other threads]. Survival during the floundering period is what is important. Other systems like M&M can weather the hard spots easier due to a much larger fan-base. Hero Games has had three years to establish itself' date=' now it needs to turn some of its time and resources on acquiring new gamers. Sidekick was the first step in that process but now it needs to be taken further. Even a "lite" toolkit is of no use if the potential mechanic can't see how to use the tools.[/quote']

 

This brings up another question... another way of looking at the issues of this thread...

 

M&M has been out... what... three years maybe? Nothing at all the length of time Hero has been around... an 8th of the time at best.

 

Why does M&M have a bigger fan base than Hero?

 

Is it the d20 basis? Is it the full color production? Is the focus on a single genre... Four Color Supers? Is it the simplicity of character construction?

 

Why do people like a game that I find to be horribly limiting... incredibly unbalanced... fundamentally flawed in core concepts, and frankly unplayable.

 

I know I got sucked in, though. I bought the book. I have supplements. I love the bright, evocative production values and art. (Same as I loved the original edition SAS as a package...) and I even love the simple concepts that drive the system. It just turns out to be a crap game, when you actually try to play it.

 

So... what does it have that gives it such a fanbase... because that is what Hero should be shooting for, if they want to last and grow.

 

(This is all supposing that MitchellS' comment is true. I have no data to support this, but I'll run with it for purposes of discussion.)

 

All I can go back to is my initial complaint, and what someone else posted... which is that Hero System is a just that... a system... and not a game. Systems do create loyalty, but in a select group/style of player. GAMES drive loyalty in the majority of the gaming population. I'm sure folks are out there... but I don't think most people even connect with a system until they have experienced it positively in a real game play environment. It is not a subtle difference between "I"m drawn to Hero because it a universal system toolkit that allows me to create whatever effect I want" and "I was drawn to Champions because I could make whatever superhero I wanted!" These are vastly different appeals... and I'd challenge any of the long term Hero-philes here to really think back to what first attracted you to the system. I'm pretty sure it was the latter, not the former, for most of us.

 

How do we recapture that appeal?

[TaxiMan]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

I agree 100% with RDU Neil. Hero isn't a game. People play games. People don't play Hero.

 

What's worse, there aren't any (slight exaggeration) Hero games. A game would say

 

Here's the world you're playing in. Here's the magic system or superpower basis, etc.. Here's the point limit for character creation, and these are the required / allowed / disallowed powers, skills, disadvantages, etc. Finally, here's a campaign with monsters / villians and plots etc.

 

There are "world" books available. The campaign is often the least important, as people create their own. But the middle stuff is missing, and it shows. Sure, there are hundreds of options in print, hundreds of possibilities, but each comes with balance issues and problems that need to be addressed. And "hundreds" is too many for most.

 

I'd like it if we picked one for a genre and said "this is the CU baseline" or "this is the High Fantasy baseline" etc.

[MitchellS]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

RDU Neil, I think you've touched on the major points but I'll expand upon them with my own opinion.

 

First, and foremost, M&M is a beautiful book. It immediately appeals to comic book enthusiasts. When you open the M&M books it feels almost like you're opening up a graphic novel. In our fast-paced, MTV, get a movie in and out of a theater every two weeks, culture visual appeal is everything. Society's attention span, overall, has decreased so those things which quickly catch our fancy are immediately appealing to us. That's not to say that Hero books are ugly because they're not. Hero books are just plain by comparison.

 

If anyone thinks presentation doesn't matter then keep in mind that when the deluxe SAS came out it was declared the new "king" superhero game [which started the SAS/Hero fan wars] entirely on the basis of what it looked like. Not that the system was or wasn't good but just on the fact that it was full-color and had the comic book appeal.

 

Second is the d20 bandwagon. There are several hundred thousand d20 players in the world [i have heard rumors that more than 800,000 core books were sold worldwide]. Even if only 5% of those purchasers are interested in superheroes you are left with a potential fan-base in the tens of thousands. That fact that Green Ronin can afford to color-print their books alone tells us that they are printing in quantities that Hero Games can't match.

 

There have been several d20 superhero game attempts by other companies over the last 3 years but M&M is the one that stuck. That doesn't mean it's the best d20 superhero game but when you add the presentation factor in it becomes the best d20 game. SAS lost its presentation with its follow up books and it fell by the wayside.

 

In my opinion there is only 3 ways to bring in new gamers to the system:

 

1- use current players to bring them in [this, for the most part, has been Hero Games' marketing policy for the last 3 years and it seems to be failing].

 

2- increase the visual appeal of the books [at the very least the Champions books because superheroes are still the big gun for the company].

 

3- simplify the system enough so that players aren't immediately intimated by the game [market smaller "starter" books like the ones I've mentioned here several times. Clean up the sloppy and wordy character sheets and design. Give people options but make sure they understand the basic rules too].

 

In one of my first posts to the boards I said the way for Hero Games to attract fans was to take Sidekick, throw in some Champions Universe, make it full-color, give it a hard back, and sell it for $30.00. My opinion hasn't really changed since then. Flash and simplicity sell. Doldrums and complexity wither and die.

 

On top of that Hero Games needs to start making smarter choices in the books it chooses to publish. When I see Steve Long making a post saying the reason FH game worlds don't sell well is because there are too many fantasy game worlds already in print I have to wonder why they gave the go-ahead to publish The Valdorian Age. Just because you make a schedule a year in advance doesn't mean it needs to be followed. TVA might be a great world but if you feel it's going to fail due to market saturation months before it's published it might be better not to publish it at all. A break even book doesn't do anyone any good. It only wastes time and resources which can be spent publishing books which they feel will be profitable.

 

We all want to see Hero Games flourish. It might be time for Hero Games to change its marketing strategies. If you never learn from your previous mistakes you will keep making them over and over. Sometimes you need to give the fans what they want rather than what you want to give them.

[Lord Beavis]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

No offense....but are any of the people who have posted in this thread affiliated with the company (except that they have bought the product like me.)

 

Does anyone realize that the company is very small and has no marketing budget??

 

The people who run the company must have decided it is more profitable for them to accept their small niche of gamers and provide quality products to them, than throw money into marketing.

 

Instead of talking amongst yourselves (all who play and enjoy HERO like myself), invest in the company to bring about your ideas!!! When you see the actual numbers, you'll see the truth of the company and the RPG industry in general.

[MitchellS]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

No offense....but are any of the people who have posted in this thread affiliated with the company (except that they have bought the product like me.)

 

Does anyone realize that the company is very small and has no marketing budget??

 

The people who run the company must have decided it is more profitable for them to accept their small niche of gamers and provide quality products to them, than throw money into marketing.

 

Instead of talking amongst yourselves (all who play and enjoy HERO like myself), invest in the company to bring about your ideas!!! When you see the actual numbers, you'll see the truth of the company and the RPG industry in general.

No one is suggesting they run ads; or at least I'm not. When I use the term "marketing strategy" I'm referring to the steps the company is itself taking to bring in new gamers. Publishing books which primarily only appeal to the established fan-base [like 600 page 5Er] is not taking steps to market their game to a potential new audience. As an example there are no M&M ads published all over the place either. Green Ronin chooses to let the presentation of its product market itself. That is "free" marketing.

[Cmonkey]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

The vast majority of people who dislike Hero, dislike it because they have to build their game before they can play it, from what I gather. Therefore, it makes sense to publish a complete game (not system or toolkit) for these types of people. It may not skyrocket sales to d20 figures, but it's a start and it at least lets those types of people see what Hero has to offer and potentially get them buying supplements, if not the big book itself. Sidekick doesn't fulfill that role. It is a primer to the system, the toolkit... but it's still not a game. Sidekick still makes people build their own game using the toolkit, just a more streamlined version of it. The game book need not even have a setting attatched, since many seem opposed to that, D&D thrived without settings in the DMG/PHB/MM combo and people spent $30 a piece on boxed settings for it over 10 years ago, although the books were on $15 at the time.

 

Therefore, I think the best thing to do is to write & publish this game book, let's call it the "Hero System RPG" (I'm sure someone will come up with a better name/acronym sooner or later). HSRPG would not tell you how to build powers, it would have a set of the most widely applicable powers/talents/etc. that are general enough to warrent inclusion. It would have a complete skill, psionic and magic system. No tools, just a complete game. Powers/talents/etc. would not be listed in Herospeak, but their complete uses spelled out in plain English. It wouldn't be as flexible or powerful as the real deal, but if it gets people playing an buying Hero product, it would be worth it. Put a nice little ad in the book telling people they can buy the toolkit book to build whatever they want or if they don't have the time/desire to there are database books full of pre-built stuff ready to go, and ship that book off to the printers.

 

Such a book wouldn't take long to produce, after all you simply have to borrow the existing magic system from FHG1 & 2, take some sample powers/talents/etc. from the big book, maybe build a few more, spell them out in English rather than herospeak, and you're well over half way there.

[nexus]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

The vast majority of people who dislike Hero, dislike it because they have to build their game before they can play it, from what I gather. Therefore, it makes sense to publish a complete game (not system or toolkit) for these types of people.

 

That has not been my experience. The majority of people I've talked that dislike Hero do so because they believe it is complicated and they are intidimidated by the math involved. Many of the gamers I know create their owm worlds anyway, tinkering with systems they find familiar and comfortable. Hero is "just" system but then again so is GURPS.

 

It may not skyrocket sales to d20 figures, but it's a start and it at least lets those types of people see what Hero has to offer and potentially get them buying supplements, if not the big book itself. Sidekick doesn't fulfill that role. It is a primer to the system, the toolkit... but it's still not a game. Sidekick still makes people build their own game using the toolkit, just a more streamlined version of it. The game book need not even have a setting attatched, since many seem opposed to that, D&D thrived without settings in the DMG/PHB/MM combo and people spent $30 a piece on boxed settings for it over 10 years ago, although the books were on $15 at the time.

 

Therefore, I think the best thing to do is to write & publish this game book, let's call it the "Hero System RPG" (I'm sure someone will come up with a better name/acronym sooner or later). HSRPG would not tell you how to build powers, it would have a set of the most widely applicable powers/talents/etc. that are general enough to warrent inclusion. It would have a complete skill, psionic and magic system. No tools, just a complete game. Powers/talents/etc. would not be listed in Herospeak, but their complete uses spelled out in plain English. It wouldn't be as flexible or powerful as the real deal, but if it gets people playing an buying Hero product, it would be worth it. Put a nice little ad in the book telling people they can buy the toolkit book to build whatever they want or if they don't have the time/desire to there are database books full of pre-built stuff ready to go, and ship that book off to the printers.

 

Such a book wouldn't take long to produce, after all you simply have to borrow the existing magic system from FHG1 & 2, take some sample powers/talents/etc. from the big book, maybe build a few more, spell them out in English rather than herospeak, and you're well over half way there.

 

I think you're underestimating the time required for this sort of thing. You're also going to seem to be making one way "official", cost some of what (imo) makes Hero unique, but I've pointed out my problems with it, so I'll just bow out of the thread. Anymore would just seem like trolling

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

That has not been my experience. The majority of people I've talked that dislike Hero do so because they believe it is complicated and they are intidimidated by the math involved. Many of the gamers I know create their owm worlds anyway, tinkering with systems they find familiar and comfortable. Hero is "just" system but then again so is GURPS.

 

Well, his suggestion adresses that too. Character building becoming based on a 'menu' simplifies that right down.

 

And GURPS isn't a great role model for success.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

Thus far' date=' having participated in the lengthy rpg.net thread, [/quote']

 

And doing yeoman service, I might add. You've gone to great lengths to dispel many misunderstandings and misinformation about HERO, in the most effective way possible: through simple statements of fact and concrete examples.

 

And you've done so in a largely nonconfrontational manner while visibly trying to maintain a balanced perspective.

 

Thank you.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

This brings up another question... another way of looking at the issues of this thread...

 

M&M has been out... what... three years maybe? Nothing at all the length of time Hero has been around... an 8th of the time at best.

 

Why does M&M have a bigger fan base than Hero?

 

May I ask what the basis is for the assertion that Mutants and Masterminds has a larger fan base than Champions? Is it an assumption that because it's D20 the fanbase must be bigger, or does someone have some statistics which support that?

 

Is it based on M&M being able to afford to print full-color hardback books for M&M? I can't help but notice that the entire M&M line is a small fraction of what's been published for 5E Champions, nor can I forget that the line lost money for Green Ronin last year (although that was apparently due at least in part to printer problems beyond their control).

 

I'd just like to know the factual basis for this comparison.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

And doing yeoman service, I might add. You've gone to great lengths to dispel many misunderstandings and misinformation about HERO, in the most effective way possible: through simple statements of fact and concrete examples.

 

And you've done so in a largely nonconfrontational manner while visibly trying to maintain a balanced perspective.

 

Thank you.

Well thanks! But dont down play your own attempts both current and historically to be the "reasonable HERO Guy" voice on rpg.net. It's not unrealistic to wonder if the current low-flame thread isnt benefiting from iterative good will that you have helped encourage there.

 

 

 

"We now return the thread to its normally scheduled squablling."

[Mentor]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

May I ask what the basis is for the assertion that Mutants and Masterminds has a larger fan base than Champions? Is it an assumption that because it's D20 the fanbase must be bigger, or does someone have some statistics which support that?

 

Is it based on M&M being able to afford to print full-color hardback books for M&M? I can't help but notice that the entire M&M line is a small fraction of what's been published for 5E Champions, nor can I forget that the line lost money for Green Ronin last year (although that was apparently due at least in part to printer problems beyond their control).

 

I'd just like to know the factual basis for this comparison.

I would echo the question, LL. My gaming experience is more FtoF than web driven, but in my personal experience locally and in visits to other cities, Champions is far more known than M&M, and therefore genarally regarded more favorably.

[Funksaw]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

There is something else. I'm planning to start up a "Newbies to HERO" weekly meeting. It would be wrong to call it a game session, because it's not playing (indeed, I don't even have a genre.) But it will explain how the system works, how it's similar to many other systems, different from others. Here's what I'm going to emphasize and acknowledge.

 

1) First, HERO is a complex system. No "it's not as complicated as it looks" or "it's just 6th grade math" - it really is a complex system - one of the most complex out there.

 

2) Yes, it does take a long time to create a character in HERO, especially if you're interested in shaving points and aren't familiar with all the ways to do so.

 

3) Yes, HERO was designed as a Superhero game system, but that doesn't mean that it is *only* a Superhero game system.

 

4) Yes, there are simpler superhero game systems.

 

5) Yes, it is a quirk of the game system that if you pick up a gun, you have to pay for it.

 

Trying to say these aren't true or trying to downplay this makes me look like a fanatic... these are the quirks of the system. Every system has them.

 

Here's what I'm going to emphasise.

 

1) The HERO system only requires one book. The suppliments you see on the shelf are basically "pre-fab" items and specific settings, but everything in those books can be done with the original system. (I will contrast this with GURPS)

 

2) The HERO system emulates a wider range of genres better because of the way it is set up. If you want a gritty, "gurps-like" low power game where getting shot once or twice is going to be deadly, emphasise guns and knives are "killing attacks," keep the point totals low, and characters can be taken out with one or two gunshots. If you want to set up a "cinematic" game, keep the point totals high, use stunning attacks on your enemies, and reward risky, flashy behavior. Most other generic systems do one or the other well, but rarely do they set it up that you can do both with the same ruleset.

 

3) The HERO system really does let you do almost anything you can think of within the ruleset. Because one of the design goals of HERO is to keep everything internally consistant, you'll rarely find new powers - rather you'll find unusual ways to use old powers - sometimes stretched to the point of unbelievability. (The ol' "Dimensional travel emulates having remembered to carry handcuff keys" problem) Many grognards prefer all the houserules to follow this convention. In a way, it makes sense. In your game, you do NOT have to do this. This is especially true if you want to emulate a different game, which may have radically different powers - in HERO.

 

4) If you are a HERO gamer, it is perfectly alright to say that HERO would be too much hassle to create rules for that particular game.

 

5) The powers are complex as hell, but most of the system is straightforward. The characteristics start at this number, cost this much to add to it. The numbers under there start at a base derived from the top numbers - you can add directly to it as well. Most skills start at 9, plus a characteristic divided by 5, for 3 points, with each additional point costing 2 - that's really a complex way of saying that you get the skill AT your characteristic roll -- that thing to the right of your characteristics for 3 points, and it costs 2 for each additional point you want to bump it up. Perks and Talents are straightforward. Don't think the entire system is math-heavy - it's only the powers section.

 

6) Reasoning from effects is tricky. Don't sweat it - if you really can't find a power, assign it a point cost arbitarily and move on - a guestimate - until you can figure out how you want to do it.

 

7) HERO has some good settings, but they're not in the core book. If you're looking for something with a built-in setting, HERO isn't your game. You often have to build the entire game setting yourself, or adapt from other source material. The advantage is that once you master the HERO system, you don't really have to learn any other systems - or deal with other system's quirks.

 

Finally, after I go over character creation basics, I'm going to create an entire setting in front of their eyes, in HERO.

 

"Okay, now we've got a basic handle on character creation. Let's brainstorm a game setting which we'd like to play... it can be sci-fi, fantasy, or superheroic... gritty, bleak, or cinematic... realistic, cliched, or defying convention... silly, serious, or somewhere in between."

 

And then, with everyone's input, I'll start talking about the world... write up something quickly, and explain how we can use the rules to help get the exact style of play we want.

 

"So, you want to reward in-character comedy? How about we take the Luck power, place "Charges" on it - charges which can be refilled by saying funny things in character or doing cool things?"

 

"So, you want to play a gritty game - you probably want to use Killing Attack and Ranged Killing Attacks then - and your enemies will tend to use them as well."

 

"So, you want to play a game where everything is high-tech, but there are no superpowers? Well, we can emulate that by using Focuses."

 

Basically go from start-to-finish of being a HERO GM or player, not just run a game and "hope they like it." Really introduce people to the system.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

Now that sounds like a really fun project, Funksaw. You're to be commended for taking this on.

 

Your breakdown of the pros and cons of HERO also seems very balanced, thorough and reasonable, but I do have a nitpick with one of your points:

 

5) Yes, it is a quirk of the game system that if you pick up a gun, you have to pay for it.

 

That's oversimplified to the point of misleading, if you'll pardon my saying so. In superheroic games only, if you pick up a gun for short-term use you don't have to pay for it in Character Points. If you intend to keep the gun with you from that time afterwards, you'd have to pay points for it.

 

In heroic-level games, if you pick up a gun - or acquire one by any other means - you don't have to pay Character Points to keep it with you. Ever.

[Steve Long]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

For a whole smorgasbord of reasons I'm not going to comment on most of this discussion, but I want to echo something that someone else said -- thanx to LL and KS for their extensive posting on the RPG.Net thread in question! We generally refrain from posting in threads like that because they seek fan opinion and we come across like company shills (which, let's face it, we are:hex:), so it's always gratifying to see a fan step up and explain things in the polite, informative, proper way. Thanx, guys!

[nexus]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

Well, his suggestion adresses that too. Character building becoming based on a 'menu' simplifies that right down.

 

I know I said I'd shut up but I make ir a point to respond to direct quotes. It simplifes it to extent, but there are still "complicated" aspects unless you want to carve out even more of the flexibility and robust nature that is Hero's (IMO) selling point for the sake of appealing to a audience outside its niche.

 

And GURPS isn't a great role model for success.

 

Compared to what? It seems to be Hero most direct compeition in the sense of being a generic system intended for multi genre use. And it seems to be fairly popular, or at least was. Popular enough to warrant a 4th edition printed in color hardbacks and have several popular liscences.

 

The two great role models for success in the rpg industry currently are Storyteller and D20. Neither one is something I'd like to see Hero come to resemble even thoiugh they are enjoyable. I and others, I think come to Hero for different things.

[Funksaw]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

While you're here, Steve, what do you think of the "Hero Training" idea? You've been shilling Hero longer than I have, so any suggestions or pointers?

[simplygnome]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

FS - I might just steal that Hero Training idea with my group of players. Hope you dont mind too horribly!

[Cmonkey]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

You're also going to seem to be making one way "official"' date=' cost some of what (imo) makes Hero unique, but I've pointed out my problems with it, so I'll just bow out of the thread. Anymore would just seem like trolling[/quote']

It would be simple enough and IMO good enough to include a disclaimer something like the following in the magic chapter (for example):

 

This is just one example of the type of Magic system you can build using the Hero System. If you purchase the big book you can design your own system!

 

And in the Powers chapter (just for another example):

 

These are just some of the example types of powers you can build using the Hero System. If you purchase the big book you can design your own powers!

 

If you write that enough times in plain view at the beginning of the various sections, I think it will get the point across that there is so much more you can do... if you want to.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

First off, excellent overall comments. I would add the following:

 

1) First' date=' HERO is a complex system. No "it's not as complicated as it looks" or "it's just 6th grade math" - it really is a complex system - one of the most complex out there.[/quote']

 

I would add "The benefit of this complexity is huge flexibility - you can build pretty much anything using the Hero rules - any genre, and any type of character you want to play." You have this below in "benefits".

 

5) Yes' date=' it is a quirk of the game system that if you pick up a gun, you have to pay for it. [/quote']

 

LL has commented on this. I would add that this should be "if you pick up a gun and want to keep it, you have to pay points for it in some types of game." As LL said, in a Heroic game, you don't have to pay for it. If it's Independent, you don't have to pay for it. And if you pick it up, you can use it, but you can't make it a permanent part of your repertoire unless you pay for it.

 

It may also be worth adding "Having paid for it, however, it cannot normally be removed from yoru character on a permanent basis - once you pay points for it, somehow it gets replaced if it's lost, destroyed, etc."

 

5) The powers are complex as hell' date=' [/quote']

 

I'd say "can be", but semantics.

 

6) Reasoning from effects is tricky. Don't sweat it - if you really can't find a power' date=' assign it a point cost arbitarily and move on - a guestimate - until you can figure out how you want to do it. [/quote']

 

This could be a good place to mention the support network - both formal (Steve Long, the designer of the current edition, answers rules questions on the rules board with under a day turnaround, and advice on troublesome designs is easy to get from experienced players on the Boards.) This assumes, of course, that you agree with this based on your Board experiences.

 

Again, a great system intro.

[RDU Neil]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

There is something else. I'm planning to start up a "Newbies to HERO" weekly meeting. It would be wrong to call it a game session, because it's not playing (indeed, I don't even have a genre.) But it will explain how the system works, how it's similar to many other systems, different from others. Here's what I'm going to emphasize and acknowledge.

 

SNIP

 

Basically go from start-to-finish of being a HERO GM or player, not just run a game and "hope they like it." Really introduce people to the system.

 

This is great. You deserve rep for planning it out, and more so if you can actually pull it off.

 

BUT...

 

I think this perfectly exemplifies my concerns about the future of Hero. All the above... possibly WEEKS of that going on... and you still haven't "gamed" yet.

 

This just emphasizes how much Hero is a SYSTEM... not a GAME. I've never had someone come to me and ask, "Can you teach me the Hero System?"

 

No... they've said, "I hear you have a great Champs game. I'd love to play if you have openings" or "I always wanted to play a character like (Insert comic book character here). Could I do that in your game?"

 

I can't think of another system where I would have to have an eight week seminar on the theoretical and mechanical basis for a system... before I ever ran a game.

 

Seems to me this is indicative of exactly what some of us here think needs to be addressed through the product line.

 

(Oh... and as to the M&M fanbase... I stated in my post that I didn't know if it was a fact... just that MitchelS had stated it, and I thought it a good point for discussion.)

[sbarron]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

LL has commented on this. I would add that this should be "if you pick up a gun and want to keep it' date=' you have to pay points for it in some types of game." As LL said, in a Heroic game, you don't have to pay for it. If it's Independent, you don't have to pay for it. And if you pick it up, you can use it, but you can't make it a permanent part of your repertoire unless you pay for it.[/quote']

 

I'd like to add that I think making supers pay points for equipment is one of the most seemless enforcements of a genre convention I've ever seen.

 

Spidey has a set of "standard" equipment that he carries into each adventure. That's what characters pay for...their "standard" stuff. While he may use other equipment he finds during an adventure, he doesn't carry that equipment into the next adventure.

 

Running to the store to buy a gun isn't a norm in the superhero genre. Neither is taking the other guys equipment and keeping it indefinitley. It is in most RPGs, though. Making supers pay points for equipment enforces the genre. And it keeps RPGers honest.

[Cmonkey]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

I think you should only have to pay points for gear, regardless of genre, only if you don't want the GM to have to power to take it away from you at any moment for any length of time he desires. So, if you've paid points for equipment I, as GM, would consider it an integral part of what makes your character who he is, whereas if you just paid cash for it, I'd have no trouble taking it away from you whenever I feel the need.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

I think you should only have to pay points for gear' date=' regardless of genre, only if you don't want the GM to have to power to take it away from you at any moment for any length of time he desires. So, if you've paid points for equipment I, as GM, would consider it an integral part of what makes your character who he is, whereas if you just paid cash for it, I'd have no trouble taking it away from you whenever I feel the need.[/quote']

 

To some extent, this is the way it works. If it can be taken away at GM discretion, you didn't pay points for it. You got some extra points for Focus, but unless it's independent, that means (to me, at least) you can only lose it temporarily. If you didn't pay points for it, well, easy come easy go.

 

I agree with sbarron - this is an incredible mechanic for genre enforcement in superheroic settings. Remove it, and the "gamist" takes over.

 

Assuming points aren't paid for equipment, why should I pay points for, say, resistant defenses? If no character buys resistant defenses, and we instead rely on those black market suits of turtle armor, the GM knows he can't deny us our turtle armor and then sick a bunch of supder-swordsmen on us. It wouldn't be "fair". Killing off all the characters is not the objective of a decent GM. Soon, everyone - hero, villain, agent and DNPC - is wearing turtle armor.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

For a whole smorgasbord of reasons I'm not going to comment on most of this discussion' date=' but I want to echo something that someone else said -- thanx to LL and KS for their extensive posting on the RPG.Net thread in question! We generally refrain from posting in threads like that because they seek fan opinion and we come across like company shills (which, let's face it, we are:hex:), so it's always gratifying to see a fan step up and explain things in the polite, informative, proper way. Thanx, guys![/quote']

Thanx, and glad to do it.