Limiting new players (balance ques.)

[simplygnome]

With a group of new players, Im about to start them off on a 300pt (200 + 100) supers game. Im looking at 75pts max in powers...with a couple exceptions. How do you experienced GMs limit things like OCV, rPD/ED, etc etc so things are still balanced.

 

The problem Im looking at is giving my plays who are new to the Hero system 300 pts, and watching the power gamers in them buy up gobs of armor. If I say powers are limited to 75pts, I can almost bet one specific player already plans to grap 75pts of FF, with Damage reduc, with armor, if Ill let him . Another problem is people buying up OCV/DCV like mad.

 

How do you put caps and limits while still teaching players how to make a balanced character? I already plan on taking a direct role in modifying/improving their character afterwards anyhow....

[MitchellS]

Re: Limiting new players (balance ques.)

 

As a GM the first thing you need to do is learn to say "no" in a way that no one finds insulting. That's always the hardest part. I just try to make players understand about the genre they are attempting to copy. Genre is the reason why Thor isn't faster than Quicksilver or why Captain America can't do more damage than Ironman.

 

I played with one GM who used two rules to determine combat effectiveness for characters. The first, Power Efficiency, was to take the active points of the largest attack power, cost of speed, and points of pd and ed and add them together. The starting character result couldn't exceed a predetermined number [He used 160: 60 ap attack, 50 for 5 speed, 50 for defense [25 pd & 25 ed] = 160]. Damage reduction add at 50% of cost [50% Rpd adds 30].

 

The second, Combat Efficiency, was to take OCV, DCV, and damage class of largest attack and establish a cap number [30 was the number he used. So if someone had 13 DC his maximum OCV/DCV had to total 17 or less]

 

The Power Efficiency could only be increased 5 points for each 20 experience gained. The Combat Efficiency could also only be increased 1 for each 20 experience. So out of 20 experience points no more than 14 points could go to efficiency groups [5 for Power and max of 9 with an increase of 3 Dexterity]. The GM had caps of 200 for Power Efficiency and 50 for Combat Efficiency.

 

We all ended up just spot checking the characters and making sure the GM enforced genre.

[sbarron]

Re: Limiting new players (balance ques.)

 

With a group of new players, Im about to start them off on a 300pt (200 + 100) supers game. Im looking at 75pts max in powers...with a couple exceptions. How do you experienced GMs limit things like OCV, rPD/ED, etc etc so things are still balanced.

 

The problem Im looking at is giving my plays who are new to the Hero system 300 pts, and watching the power gamers in them buy up gobs of armor. If I say powers are limited to 75pts, I can almost bet one specific player already plans to grap 75pts of FF, with Damage reduc, with armor, if Ill let him . Another problem is people buying up OCV/DCV like mad.

 

How do you put caps and limits while still teaching players how to make a balanced character? I already plan on taking a direct role in modifying/improving their character afterwards anyhow....

I would just stick to the guidlines for attacks, defenses, OCV/DCV, etc. provided in Fred. Don't put hard caps on things. Point balance tends to even itself out, for the most part. A 300pt character spending 75 pts on FF and 75 points on Armor will be very tough to hurt. But he'll also be burning 7 END per phase, and still be sesceptable to NNDs, AVLDs, Flashes. Further, he won't have nearly as many points to spend on buying his CHAR, movement powers, attack powers, skill levels, etc.

 

Unless your players are complete munchkins, after they buy one of their abilities up way too high, they'll start trying to make the rest of the character and realize they are short on points. It doesn't always happen, but I think things tend to even out in the end. Just be ready to roll with it. It may take a couple sessions before the players realize just what it is they gave up when they dropped so many of their points into just one area.

[John Desmarais]

Re: Limiting new players (balance ques.)

 

With a group of new players, Im about to start them off on a 300pt (200 + 100) supers game. Im looking at 75pts max in powers...with a couple exceptions. How do you experienced GMs limit things like OCV, rPD/ED, etc etc so things are still balanced.

 

The problem Im looking at is giving my plays who are new to the Hero system 300 pts, and watching the power gamers in them buy up gobs of armor. If I say powers are limited to 75pts, I can almost bet one specific player already plans to grap 75pts of FF, with Damage reduc, with armor, if Ill let him . Another problem is people buying up OCV/DCV like mad.

 

How do you put caps and limits while still teaching players how to make a balanced character? I already plan on taking a direct role in modifying/improving their character afterwards anyhow....

 

 

If you're willing to run a social experiement, just let them build what they want, hit them with a group of well balanced villains who work as a team, and let the game balance smack the players in the head. There are are kind of three rough categories of powers that a super hero needs: Offense, Defense, and Movement. If someone spends an excesive number of points on one of them, one or both of the other suffer. So, your player that you think will buy a large FF + Damage Reduction + Armor probably won't have a lot points left for offense and movement - which has a good chance of making him kind of useless in a fight.

 

If you do this though, the one thing you do need to do is pay very careful attention to the potential abuse of power constructs and meaningless limitations (a couple of juicy limitations that don't actually get in the character's way can give him enough points to overcome "I spent to many points one one aspect" problem. Remember, a limitation that doesn't limit isn't worth anything.

 

Then, after you soundly trounce the heroes, give the players a chance to build reasonable, well-balance heroes for the next game.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Limiting new players (balance ques.)

 

I didn't read all the other replies, but I'd just throw out the following...

 

If you are going to limit... look at "total Damage Classes" more than active points. Some massively high active point powers are barely game effective, and some very low active point powers are game breaking (Hand Attacks and HKAs anyone?)

 

What you should look at is the maximum number of dice a character can put into an attack without pushing. If you limit that to 12-15 Damage Classes... then it is much easier to figure out appropriate defenses and the like.

 

Then look for things that get around DCs... like Find Weakness, NND, AVLD, Armor Piercing and Area Effect. These should be considered as adding damage classes to attacks.

 

A focus on a little bit of control in these areas should avert a number of the worst out-of-balance offenses. Then, when your group is comfortable... you can start to look at other things to tweak or limit, if needed.

 

One thing for sure, be open about the fact that you are flexible in your rulings. If something turns out to be broken that you originally "Ok'd" then you will ask it to be fixed and help the player out. Same as if a player takes a power that turns out to be much less effective than first thought, you are open to it being fixed to be more effective.

 

Lines like "Hey... we'll go with that for now, but if it is unbalancing in game play, we'll fix it then" Use "we" instead of "you" It is inclusive, and doesn't blame anyone, and focuses on making the game workable, not on making a player feel bad or wrong.

 

Good luck.

[Kirby]

Re: Limiting new players (balance ques.)

 

I didn't read all the other replies....

But, there were only three....

 

Your new campaign sounds a bit like mine that started a few months ago. I have two players that had played before, but one was the GM, and he GM'd before he'd ever played, so neither of them were actually familiar. Our third player had had a PC created for her, but had never been in combat. I sat down with the first two at the computer and created their characters as we went through (this was actually their choice; they had the option to create a character before-hand, but chose not to). For the third player, I created her character since she had no comprehension of how to build one in HERO.

 

In my campaign, the heroes are based on 350 points, but all the initial aventures involve 250 templates, so I used the Low-Powered Superheroic chart on page 15 in FREd to set limits for starting out. I told the players they can buy things up with XP later on.

 

Having stated that, here are some following guidelines I used: If you want a ! or STOP power, it has to go with the character concept and only one PC may have each. Unless character concepts require this, I didn't let any PC have the same DEX to start out with.

 

I also required that the PC's spend 25 points in non-combat/non-characteristic areas, out of which 15 points needed to be non-combat skills. In retrospect (and for any new characters) I will have them create their 'secret ID' first and then create the super being aspect second.

 

If you have the UNTIL Super Powers Database book, have the players look through it and find their character concept (toned down to meet the 300 points and cap limits). After they do this, have them go up against some 250-350 point villains in a mock combat, to make sure they are capable.

 

For my original two players (a dating couple), one of them found out that a 5 OCV/DCV character with an NND and a 1d6 RKA wasn't that effective in combat against a 4th Ed Obsidian & Quantum (both 250 points). I remade him to be more effective, but the player opted for a brick instead, who has been unbeaten, so far. (Keep in mind, they're fighting 250 villains - this will all change the next time we get together when they fight the 'mastermind' behind the going-ons and her bodyguard. )

 

I hope this helps.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Limiting new players (balance ques.)

 

If you are worried about the players making unbalanced or munchkinish characters, there is one thing you can do that might help out: Don't tell them what the campaign max is. Instead, tell them what the campaign average is. If you max is 75 Active Points, tell them that they should build characters whose major powers have an average of 60 Active Points. Some will go a bit higher, some will go a bit lower, but very few will dump all their points into one area. And if they do, you still have a campaign max you didn't tell them about, and you can just tell that player they put too many points into something and have to change it. It might be a bit sneaky, but as long as you're consistant a good player won't challenge you on it.

[Beetle]

Re: Limiting new players (balance ques.)

 

Try to convince the players that pouring points into offense and defense doesn't create a super hero game. What it does is recreate the cold war. No matter how many points a PC puts into force field (for example), the GM's villains can always be strong enough to breach it. A GM doesn't care if the PC does 10d or 16d6 - he can always adjust his villains to compensate. So the PCs don't "win" by being pure combat monsters. Given that that's the case, they should see that it's better to have broader based characters (you know, with skills and stuff) than pure combat monsters.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Limiting new players (balance ques.)

 

.....There are are kind of three rough categories of powers that a super hero needs: Offense' date=' Defense, and Movement.....[/quote']

 

Well I hate to contradict you, John, but I've checked with my wife and, apparently, the three main categories of superpowers a hero needs are washing up, walking the dog and putting the kids to bed. At least that's what a hero needs this evening.

 

I can't seem to find them in FRED, so if anyone can help with a page reference I'd be grateful. Or are they covered in 5ER? Must get that book...

 

I'm off to fight for truth and justice by, erm...putting the kids to bed...

[John Desmarais]

Re: Limiting new players (balance ques.)

 

Well I hate to contradict you, John, but I've checked with my wife and, apparently, the three main categories of superpowers a hero needs are washing up, walking the dog and putting the kids to bed. At least that's what a hero needs this evening.

 

I can't seem to find them in FRED, so if anyone can help with a page reference I'd be grateful. Or are they covered in 5ER? Must get that book...

 

I'm off to fight for truth and justice by, erm...putting the kids to bed...

 

This wasn't a rule book quote, merely a personal observation of what makes up a balanced set of powers.

[The Hyborian]

Re: Limiting new players (balance ques.)

 

One of the great things about the Hero system is that when you have a power gamer on your hands you can always build a nemisis for him that can kick his hind end and do it on 50 fewer points. Your player is Mr. Dexterity with combat values off the charts? The nemisis buys his attacks with 1 hex area affect (dcv 3) or maybe mental powers (forgot to get any ego defense?). Your player is Dr. Brick, with defenses in very direction? The nemisis has a NND that the player doesn't defend against. If you really, really want to humiliate your players, build a well coordinated team with complimentary powers and good tactics, make them all cost less than the players, and watch the smackdown begin.

 

The point being, power is always relative, and everyone has a weakness. The only thing that I would veto in character creation (ok, not the only thing, but the main thing) is unbalancing power ideas. By unbalancing I mean they seem to be more effective than the point cost would indicate. But if that is not the case, I dont see the problem with letting your players build someone who is really, really tough, or incredibly skilled. Its part of the genere to an extent. Let your bricks feel like they are the toughest dude in town, and the martial artist lurch around saying they are "the fastest man alive". Thats part of the fun. There are always ways to come up with challanges for them.

 

I would stick with your 75 activ point cap, however. And maybe put a limit on maxium total OCV for characters at creation, but otherwise I say let them spend the points.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Limiting new players (balance ques.)

 

This wasn't a rule book quote' date=' merely a personal observation of what makes up a balanced set of powers.[/quote']

 

Should I be adding more smileys to my less serious posts?

[BNakagawa]

Re: Limiting new players (balance ques.)

 

If you're starting a completely new group with no HERO experience whatsoever, I'd suggest no limitations whatsoever.

 

(I'd also suggest an EXTREMELY liberal rebuilding policy)

 

Let them design anything they want, let them make terribly flawed designs and let them see what happens next.

 

Then let them fix what they think is broken. Quickly.

 

Nothing teaches a game system faster.

 

You COULD just tell them this and that, but when they can link a generic statement to a concrete memory of a KOed PC, it sticks.