Hardened vs. AP

[Phil]

Why is Hardened worth +1/4 but AP worth +1/2?

 

For the purposes of game balance, surely both should cost exactly the same? After all, defences are already cheaper than attacks, this just accentuates those differences.

 

Given the limited value of additional APs and Hardeneds, I was thinking that a value of +1/2 for the first and +1/4 for any subsequent seems reasonable for both. Hence for +1 you could have triple-AP attack.

 

Phil

[Richard Logue]

Re: Hardened vs. AP

 

My quick guess is that Hardened has a more limited usage than AP. Hardened only counteracts AP or Penetrating. AP can halve any defense value. So AP is more expensive because it has a wider range of use. Its more potent.

 

RL

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Hardened vs. AP

 

Why is Hardened worth +1/4 but AP worth +1/2?

 

For the purposes of game balance, surely both should cost exactly the same? After all, defences are already cheaper than attacks, this just accentuates those differences.

Well, that's kinda the whole point. "Every offense should have a defense, and the defense should be cheaper" is one of the metarules of the HERO System. AP is the offense; Hardened is the defense. The defense is cheaper.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hardened vs. AP

 

As far as costing goes, the most common AP I see is in conjunction with a normal power. For example, a 12d6 EB and an 8d6 AP EB in a multipower (incremental cost over a straight 12d6 EB: 12 points to pay for both slots). I've never seen a character with a Multipower: 20/20 force field and 16/16 Hardened force field. You pay full points for Hardened, but it's useful only when someone throws an AP or Penetrating attack at you.

 

Hardened isn't purchased often enough for me to conclude it's underpriced.

[Mortuorum`]

Re: Hardened vs. AP

 

Well' date=' that's kinda the whole point. "Every offense should have a defense, and the defense should be cheaper" is one of the metarules of the HERO System. AP is the offense; Hardened is the defense. The defense is cheaper. [/quote']

 

Exactly so. Otherwise (using Phil's logic), Flash Defense and Power Defense should cost 5 points per point of defense. Defenses in HERO are cheaper than their corresponding attack power.

[Phil]

Re: Hardened vs. AP

 

Exactly so. Otherwise (using Phil's logic)' date=' Flash Defense and Power Defense should cost 5 points per point of defense. Defenses in HERO are cheaper than their corresponding attack power.[/quote']

 

Ooh, steady on! My point is that defences are already cheaper than attacks. The hardened / AP discrepency appears to accentuate this.

 

60 AP EB needs 42 points of ED to block it (on average)

[12d6 *3.5 = 42 Stun]

60 AP EB needs 35 points of Hardened ED to block it (on average).

[8d6 * 3.5 = 28, 28*1.25=35]

 

However, I guess as has been pointed, if Hardened was over-priced, you'd see a lot more players with it. And AP is useful all the time, while Hardened is only useful if AP is on the scene.

[Frenchman]

Re: Hardened vs. AP

 

Given the limited value of additional APs and Hardeneds, I was thinking that a value of +1/2 for the first and +1/4 for any subsequent seems reasonable for both. Hence for +1 you could have triple-AP attack.

Phil

This is exactly the house rule my group has been using for a while. The example that brought us to this was when a character bought hardened x4 for some of his defenses (10 points worth, so it only cost him 10 points). This was in a fantasy game, and said character had the most defense in the party.

The idea that not only would someone come up with buying 4x hardened in a group where 2x AP had only appeared (and has only appeared a few more times since) one time, but would not even flinch at the cost. The GM thought about what it would take to create an enemy with enough AP to get him anyways, and realized it would be way too expensive. Who on earth would ever buy AP x4? Its a +2 advantage that has barely any more value than it's +1/2 equivalent. Every additional multiple of AP you buy is of increasingly less and less real value, but costs just the same.

Using this house rule, countering Hardened x4 is still expensive, but closer to being affordable (+1 1/2 for APx5).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hardened vs. AP

 

Using this house rule' date=' countering Hardened x4 is still expensive, but closer to being affordable (+1 1/2 for APx5).[/quote']

 

Actually, if you're spending 75 points for a 6d6 attack vs half someone's defenses, why not just spend 75 points for a 15d6 attack - it will get more damage through whether or not they have hardened defenses.

 

Even Ap x2 in the standard system is a waste. Halve defenses, or double the attack for the same cost is a pretty easy choice.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Hardened vs. AP

 

Well' date=' that's kinda the whole point. "Every offense should have a defense, and the defense should be cheaper" is one of the metarules of the HERO System. AP is the offense; Hardened is the defense. The defense is cheaper. [/quote']

This is the #1 Reason but there are others.

 

Hardened is not ALWAYS the correct defense against Armor Piercing!

If character with Teleportation buys Armor Piercing for it his Teleportation can only be stopped by powers (characters, entangles, force walls, telekenisis, etc...) that have the defensive advantage Cannot Be Escaped By Teleportation (+1/4) 5ER pg 235.

Certain very effective combinations are quite easy to build cheaply with multiple layers of Armor Piercing, Penetrating and Indirect(which is also stopped by Hardened BTW).

RKA 1.5d6 Armor Piercing x2 (+1) Penetrating x2 (+1)

75 Real Points

This is guaranteed to do some BODY damage just via Penetrating unless the target has at least 3 levels of hardened on his defenses AND that 2 of those are tasked against Penetrating before Armor Piercing (and this still leaves the target with 1/2 defenses due to the last level of AP!)

 

HM

[Frenchman]

Re: Hardened vs. AP

 

RKA 1.5d6 Armor Piercing x2 (+1) Penetrating x2 (+1)

 

75 Real Points

Yes, but why buy that when you can buy 3d6+1 KA, Penetrating x1, or 5d6 KA?

And it only takes 40 points to have 10/10 armor, Hardened x4, which will stop any chance of doing body with that attack, in addition to doing everything else that 10/10 armor does.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Hardened vs. AP

 

Yes, but why buy that when you can buy 3d6+1 KA, Penetrating x1, or 5d6 KA?

And it only takes 40 points to have 10/10 armor, Hardened x4, which will stop any chance of doing body with that attack, in addition to doing everything else that 10/10 armor does.

Easy,

the character also has poison attack (NND) built as part of a multiple power attack and only works if the RKA does body. The 1.5d6 build guarantees that vs. all but the most hardened defenses.

 

I'm not saying that the multiple AP/Penetrating attack I described is any better than a 5d6 RKA but it does allow for some far less destructive methods of taking down characters with otherwise very high defenses.

[Frenchman]

Re: Hardened vs. AP

 

Easy,

the character also has poison attack (NND) built as part of a multiple power attack and only works if the RKA does body. The 1.5d6 build guarantees that vs. all but the most hardened defenses.

You could also buy it AVLD vs. Hardened Resistant Mystic Group Flash Defense, Does Body (+2 1/2), getting you 1d6+1 for only 70 points. That is guaranteed to get you body vs. any character I've ever even thought of, or, in fact, any character that wasn't specifically designed to resist your attack.

 

Edit: Sorry if my tone comes off as aggressive or offensive, not meant that way. I had a smile on my face the whole time writing this post.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Hardened vs. AP

 

You could also buy it AVLD vs. Hardened Resistant Mystic Group Flash Defense' date=' Does Body (+2 1/2), getting you 1d6+1 for only 70 points. That is guaranteed to get you body vs. [u']any[/u] character I've ever even thought of, or, in fact, any character that wasn't specifically designed to resist your attack.

 

Edit: Sorry if my tone comes off as aggressive or offensive, not meant that way. I had a smile on my face the whole time writing this post.

no offense taken.

 

A possible sfx of my example could be a 'supers-version' of a big game tranquilizer dart (to take out The Hulk for example). The RKA is just a delivery method, the NND is what does the real dirty work. An ALVD attack with Does Body (STOP and ! powers) IS more efficient at doing more body but that may not always be the true goal.

 

HM

[Frenchman]

Re: Hardened vs. AP

 

Point conceded.

 

Still, though, for this particular purpose, why not buy Penetrating x4? If you're coming up against things with that much defense, AP isn't going to do much, especially for such a small attack.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Hardened vs. AP

 

Point conceded.

 

Still, though, for this particular purpose, why not buy Penetrating x4? If you're coming up against things with that much defense, AP isn't going to do much, especially for such a small attack.

Actually, I was basing that example very loosely on a write-up of "Questionite Claws" out of Gadgets And Gear. That writeup was for a HKA and it did have both AP and Penetrating but only one of the two was at x2.

 

The main point of the whole exercise was to demonstrate that it would go against a basic tenant of HERO to make Hardened more expensive than (+1/4).

 

HM

[Frenchman]

Re: Hardened vs. AP

 

The main point of the whole exercise was to demonstrate that it would go against a basic tenant of HERO to make Hardened more expensive than (+1/4).

I don't think anyone has really been advocating to make hardened more expensive, and I would argue against it.

You're right, one of the foundations of HERO is that defenses are less expensive than attacks.

Unfortunatly, as you stack more and more levels of Hardened, the value of the advantage required to overcome that with AP (or Pen, Indirect) becomes exponentially greater and greater.

In addition, attacks are allready more expensive than defenses, so even if AP was only +1/4, it would still be more expensive.

Another tenant of the HERO system is that there are no absolutes (unless the GM allows it, which is the main tenant of HERO)

By buying Hardened at x4 or greater, depending on the campaigns point scope, a character has essentially bought defenses that absolutely defeat AP and its cousins, especially if the campaign has an active point cap.

Therefore, while the value difference between AP and Hardened appear to uphold the basic foundations of the HERO system, it in fact weakens it.

 

If the value of additional levels of AP (after the first) was reduced to +1/4, AP would still be more expensive than hardened, both because of greater base points and a slightly higher overall advantage value.

In addition, it doesn't provide a virtually absolute defense vs. AP, etc...

It strengthens and upholds the core facets of HERO

[Dust Raven]

Re: Hardened vs. AP

 

Ooh, steady on! My point is that defences are already cheaper than attacks. The hardened / AP discrepency appears to accentuate this.

 

60 AP EB needs 42 points of ED to block it (on average)

[12d6 *3.5 = 42 Stun]

60 AP EB needs 35 points of Hardened ED to block it (on average).

[8d6 * 3.5 = 28, 28*1.25=35]

 

However, I guess as has been pointed, if Hardened was over-priced, you'd see a lot more players with it. And AP is useful all the time, while Hardened is only useful if AP is on the scene.

The reason it's that much cheeper is this: look what happens when the Hardened DEF goes up against that 12d6. If you'd spend the same points (42) on Hardened DEF, you'd end up with only 34 DEF, which still isn't as good as a 42 against the 12d6. Sure, it's even better against the AP, but if the attack isn't AP it's idle points spent.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Hardened vs. AP

 

This is exactly the house rule my group has been using for a while. The example that brought us to this was when a character bought hardened x4 for some of his defenses (10 points worth, so it only cost him 10 points). This was in a fantasy game, and said character had the most defense in the party.

The idea that not only would someone come up with buying 4x hardened in a group where 2x AP had only appeared (and has only appeared a few more times since) one time, but would not even flinch at the cost. The GM thought about what it would take to create an enemy with enough AP to get him anyways, and realized it would be way too expensive. Who on earth would ever buy AP x4? Its a +2 advantage that has barely any more value than it's +1/2 equivalent. Every additional multiple of AP you buy is of increasingly less and less real value, but costs just the same.

Using this house rule, countering Hardened x4 is still expensive, but closer to being affordable (+1 1/2 for APx5).

AP is overpriced anyway. There's a breakpoint in the target's DEF where it's better to just buy the attack without the Advantage and use those points for more dice. It's what I would have done against a character that spend all their points on Hardened. Sure, let them laugh off a few AP attacks, and even a few AP x2... then instead of the APx2 I just use an attack with twice the dice. Much easier than rewriting the rules.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Hardened vs. AP

 

Another idea to think about in defense of the current costs of both of these advantages is the ubiquitous Attack Multipower.

 

A 75 active point Multipower can have both a 10d6 AP attack as well as a 15d6 straight attack for only an additional 7 real points not counting any limitations. Considering that the 15d6 attack will average ~52 Stun, 30+ Defenses are needed to keep from suffering an almost garanteed STUNNED effect. If we go with a flat 30 characteristic based defense it costs 7 points to harden (not counting resistant defenses of course). As Dust Raven points out, if the attack is not hardened though, those points spent on Hardened are wasted. If you reduce the cost of Armor Piercing to (+1/4) you now have to deal with a 15d6 normal and 12d6 AP attack!

 

Based on this, I think the current costs are just fine.

 

HM

[Phil]

Re: Hardened vs. AP

 

Another idea to think about in defense of the current costs of both of these advantages is the ubiquitous Attack Multipower.

 

True. Certainly based on the arguments here, I'm satisfied that AP and Hardened are appropriately costed initially, but do think that AP should scale down to 1/4 for each subsequent AP. After all, the second AP is effectively "AP only against opponents with hardened defences", which must surely be a -1 limitation on a -1/2 limitation (0.5 / (1+1) = 0.25)

 

This point raises an interesting side question, however, about the utility of attacks and defences. Attack multipowers are common, whatever the source of the attack. Defence multipowers are generally harder to justify though: perhaps with forcefield, but very rarely with armour. So while defences generally cost less, when multipower enters the equation, attacks are far cheaper.

[Mr Reasonable]

Re: Hardened vs. AP

 

Tried Borg shields?

 

30 Multipower 30 point pool

 

6 m 30 pd force field

6 m 30 ed force field

 

Total cost 42 points.

 

Or, for a really abusive yet perfectly legal construct:

 

30 Multipower 30 point pool

 

1 u 15pd force field

1 u 15ed force field

1 u 10pd armour

1 u 10ed armour

 

Total cost 34 (and you have more types of defence to use in case of NNDs.)

 

Then you can tune your defences to the situation. Of course for the same cost you could have had a 21/21 force field (or a 17/17 using the abusive construct) - better against a balanced bevy of foes, but against foes who don't know what you are up to (naturally both flavours of FF have the same sfx), or a single foes that relies on a single type of attack, quite a cheap way of getting extra utility out of your defences: everything is a trade off.

 

The other thing you can do with Borg Shields is have slots (not necessarily at full pool cost) for Flash Defence, Lack of Weakness, Power Defence and Mental Defence, so you can tune your defences to pretty much anything thrown at you. To make them cheaper, make them fixed slots as you'll either need them or not.

 

...extra slots

 

1 15 points of Lack of Weakness

2 25 points of Power Defence

1 15 points of Flash Defence

2 25 points of Mental Defence

 

Total cost with new slots: 48 (or 40 using the ultra-abusive construct) points.

 

To cap it all, have a couple of ultra slots with hardened defences like so:

 

1 10 points of hardened pd force field

1 10 points of hardened ed force field

 

...which should deal with penetrating and (to an extent) armour piercing attacks.

 

Makes you wonder why you don't see more defensive MPs, doesn't it?

 

On the hardening point if you do decrease the cost of + 1 level of armour piercing to +1/4 after the first, shouldn't you get two extra levels of hardening per +1/4 so the costs still balance?

[fbdaury]

Re: Hardened vs. AP

 

My Common build for someone that uses needler or other high speed fast projectiles(such as my Perforator Build) have Penx2 on less than 2d6, so that the average target will take body and then fall victim to his chemical pool that he sometimes uses to tip his needles/nails...

[Phil]

Re: Hardened vs. AP

 

On the hardening point if you do decrease the cost of + 1 level of armour piercing to +1/4 after the first' date=' shouldn't you get two extra levels of hardening per +1/4 so the costs still balance?[/quote']

 

No, I dont think so.

 

First AP works against all defences.

First Hardened only works against a limited group of attacks.

Therefore, first AP has more utility than first Hardened.

 

Second AP only works against a limited group of defences.

Second Hardened only works against a limited group of attacks.

Therefore, subsequent APs have similar utility to subsequent Hardeneds.

 

And while subsequent APs are only of use against Hardened, subsequent Hardeneds are of use against AP, Indirect and Penetrating. So it seems to me that the effectiveness, and thus the cost, is about equal.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hardened vs. AP

 

My Common build for someone that uses needler or other high speed fast projectiles(such as my Perforator Build) have Penx2 on less than 2d6' date=' so that the average target will take body and then fall victim to his chemical pool that he sometimes uses to tip his needles/nails...[/quote']

 

So that'll be an argument for keeping the cost of extra levels of armour piercing reasonably high then.

[Mr Reasonable]

Re: Hardened vs. AP

 

No, I dont think so.

 

First AP works against all defences.

First Hardened only works against a limited group of attacks.

Therefore, first AP has more utility than first Hardened.

 

Second AP only works against a limited group of defences.

Second Hardened only works against a limited group of attacks.

Therefore, subsequent APs have similar utility to subsequent Hardeneds.

 

And while subsequent APs are only of use against Hardened, subsequent Hardeneds are of use against AP, Indirect and Penetrating. So it seems to me that the effectiveness, and thus the cost, is about equal.

 

A fair point, so long as the argument doesn't spread to reducing the cost of indirect and penetrating too, and advocates of those advantages might want to know why it is just armour piercing that gets the cost break...

 

I can't really think of a good reason to buy multiple levels of AP anyway in most cases in the same way that I coud see a reason to do so with penetrating so that you can apply it to a small attack and guarantee some damage. Applied to 1 pip killing attack, at a cost of 5 points you can add six levels of penetrating and still only be paying 20 points on the current cost structure and that will go through anything. Perhaps we should all be buying six levels of hardening for the first five points of our force fields to head this off? It would fit neatly into adefensive multipower....