Terminal Velocity

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

So as an intellectual exercise, assuming one intended to allow the power (and the reasons to not allow this have been addressed above), how might one construct it?

 

OK, as I see the power, the teleporter opens a warp (W1) under the victim, and one overtop him (W2) say about 1" apart. The victom continually fallys down W1 and comes out W2 until building up to terminal velocity, at which time Foxhole shuts off the warp field.

 

So far, sounds like 1" Teleport, 1 hex area (+1/2), with a trigger that automatically resets (what's that, +1?), Usable as an attack (+1). Probably needs to be Uncontrolled (+1/2) and Continuous (+1) as well. 10 points, before any limitation for only teleporting straight up.... That definitely falls in the "way too cheap for effect" category, but is likely as legal a way as any to build it. Easy fix? UAA is a "Stop Sign" power.

 

Reasoning from effect, the goal is to inflict 30d6 normal damage. That sounds like a 30d6 EB. It takes 6 segments, so that sounds like Extra time (-3/4 as a full turn is -1), but can be activated immediately, then takes 6 segments to inflict the damage. hmmm...maybe price that like "Extra Time only to activate". That's -1/4 (and I'll include the fact it accumulates at 5d6 per segment). "Avoided if target can fly or teleport" is probably about -1/2. Mitigated by standard means of reducing falling damage is another -1/2, say. That's 67 points, and we haven't dealt with the target falling for 6 segments. Maybe make that a 15d6 Entangle, 1 BOD (-1/2), Not affected by attacks (-1/2), only prevents movement (-1), Linked to the EB (-1/2), ends when EB goes off (-0). That's another 43 points. This assumes the fields can be disrupted if enough damage is done to them. 110 in aggregate. Considering I could have had the 30d6 EB for 150, that seems excessive somehow.

 

I suppose there's always EDM instead of Entangle (moved to the Dimension of Perpetual Falling). Either way, the 150 AP cost for the EB alone (and the 15 END!) will preclude this fitting in a typical power framework, so it will be very expensive.

 

The bottom line is any build will be kludgy. At the end of the day, I suspect I would suggest the player choose something more straightforward.

[Blue]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

Wasent directed at you.

No, it was pretty much directed at all of us, not just you, TU.

[Bleys]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

This might be suitibly arcane.

Say you buy an transparent entangle (to simulate your victim falling through the warp) and you have an attack(EB, RKA, Whatever) with time delay or trigger set to go of when the victim "hits the groung" eg breaks the entangle.

Our hero sits on the sideline and hits the "A" button as much as he can to rack up all the effect possible before the victem can get outta the entangle.

 

not point effective but it amuses me:)

[Dust Raven]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

Terminal velocity is 200mph and does not do 30d6 damage. It may say it in the rules but there wrong. Thats the same damage as having a mountain land you.

 

Any GM that enforced such a ridiculous rule, thats only kept in because its a 20year old core rule, is a moron. offence intended if your such a GM.

Offense taken.

 

But I must be playing a different game than you then...

[Dust Raven]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

I'd write up the "warp" field using the Gate rules for Teleport. Sure, it's cheeper than buying a 30d6 EB, but so is 5" of Flight which can do the same damage with better chances, though it takes a bit longer.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

Well let's see. Terminal velocity is 30d6 averaging 105 stun and 30 body, and coming pretty close to that average given the number of dice.

 

The Body probably won't kill most superheroes unless they are hit several times: let is ignore it for the moment.

 

The stun will be a problem for most heroes. Interestingly a 6d6 killing attack does that much stun exactly (assuming an average body roll) 1 time in 6. Maybe that is a chetnut for another thread...

 

So what do you want to do with falls? Should they be deadly or not?

 

A 120mph fall is not the same as a being hit by a 100kg mass travelling at 120mph (assuming a speed of 5 you would need about 65" of movement, so assuming a base strength of 10, you would take 25d6).

 

That's an interesting point, BTW, the hero speed system really messes with move throughs: the higher your speed the less damage you do even though you may be moving at the same actual velocity as a character with a lower speed - e.g. Spd 4, 30" movement is about 45mph in combat and so is Spd 8, 15" movement, but the former adds 10 dice and the latter adds 5. Seems odd...you may want to use an alternative calculation for move through damage there...say inches per turn divided by your campaign average speed)

 

So anyway, do you want long falls to be scarier than 30 body and 105 stun v normal defences? It has been pointed out that dying in a long fall isn't very heroic, but not dying isn't very realistic. mind you superheroes are not realistic, so my view is it is probably OK where it is.

 

Mind you I don't think I would be happy about Foxhole's proposed attack even with all the suggested safeguards. Do not forget that acceleration is per segment not per phase so it builds up pretty rapidly - about six segments or two or three phases to terminal velocity - not a lot of time to pull a rescue mission.

This idea is already presented in 5E as an optional rule on pages 292-293 (5ER pages 436-437).

 

HM

[Vorsch]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

Offense taken.

 

But I must be playing a different game than you then...

 

As one of the most reapected menbers of this board, due to the Intlligence of your posts, and there ability to address issues from players, both new and old, im surprised.

 

The hero system comes under much critism, i feel justly for rules such as this. I find it strange you would champion such a rule.

 

I see many examples of supermans throw based on mega scale leaping UAO, does this not ring false with you if the rules are at once logarithmic and linear at the same time?

[Vorsch]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

Here's another one for Foxhole...

 

How would you build a power that traps someone between two warps that are close together so that they fall out of one warp and into another one, basically catching them in a loop? The idea is that they continue to fall through these warps until they achieve a terminal velocity, then the power ends and they hit the ground.

 

The only thing that I can think of is an Entangle built with Transparency to Attacks, Continuous, Versus DEX not STR, NND (Flight and the like), linked to a 30d6 EB with a delayed effect. That's a lot of points. Any other ideas?

 

Build a power for what it is. Hero's defiance of reality when the construct exists as stated is funny.

 

26 40 Teleport 5", usable against others, range, continuous(built in fail, no need for trigger), uncontrolled, 0 end, lim straignt up teleport only-1/2

 

you dont need two teleports just the exit above the gate.

 

I didnt call you a moron personally, but if you view that 30d6 by THE RULES is fair for what amouts to a car crash. Then it stands.

[Vorsch]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

Hero rules are not consistant.

 

They could be with so little effort..............

[lemming]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

As one of the most reapected menbers of this board, due to the Intlligence of your posts, and there ability to address issues from players, both new and old, im surprised.

 

The hero system comes under much critism, i feel justly for rules such as this. I find it strange you would champion such a rule.

While critising the system is fine, calling people morons for sticking with a rule may be the problem. Heck, I hold onto the 30d6 terminal velocity because it doesn't come up often enough.

 

If you're an abrasive jerk when it comes to "championing" your point of view you will not get people to see your point. They'll go "Geez, what a <snip>"

 

Learn some valid debating techniques and maybe we'll listen.

[Mr Reasonable]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

This idea is already presented in 5E as an optional rule on pages 292-293 (5ER pages 436-437).

 

HM

 

You're quite right about there being an alternative in place but it is not quite the same as inches per turn/campaign average speed (CAS)(or a fixed divisor, say 4 or 5). The alternative sysytem in Hero as it stands doesn't differentiate, for example, between velocity damage for move throughs and move bys, whereas if you used your inches per turn/5 or whatever then you would be making it fairer on the speedsters, and could still use the normal calculation formula for damage.

 

The Hero alternative system results in lower average damage for move through and higher for move by maneuvres for most characters.

 

If you do use either system though, be aware that you will be reducing the damage most bricks do with move throughs and move bys as, and increasing the damage speedsters do - you will be making speed more useful and movement marginally less useful.

 

To keep the post on track, the Hero alternative system suggests that the falling damage for someone on normal weight at terminal velocity should be 22d6 NOT 30d6. That will doubtless please some and not others...but it is still enough to kill a normal human outright on an average roll, which could be seen as a sort of benchmark.

[Phil]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

Lots of interesting discussion going on, but I think people are hung up with the SFX.

 

I would expect this to be created by something like an entangle, XDM or transform (to cover the warp looping) followed by a linked xd6 attack (possibly linked to an Uncontrolled Aid, to reflect the attack gaining dice the longer the person is in the warp).

 

Anything else and the player is getting an attack way more potent than the points they've paid for it. In my book, they want to do 30d6 damage then (a) they better have a damn good reason why I should run railroad over my campaign limits, and ( they better pay for a 30d6 attack.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

26 40 Teleport 5", usable against others, range, continuous(built in fail, no need for trigger), uncontrolled, 0 end, lim straignt up teleport only-1/2

 

you dont need two teleports just the exit above the gate.

 

Mechanically, I believe this would work as follows, assuming a 6 SPD character buys the power:

 

(a) Phase 12 (assumed phase of attack) Target teleported 5" up.

 

( Phase 1: Target falls 5", hits ground, 5d6 damage.

 

© Phase 2: Continuous attack acts at attacker's dex; target goes 5" up.

 

(d) Phase 3: Target falls 5", hits ground, 5d6 damage.

 

(e) Phase 4: Continuous attack acts at attacker's dex; target goes 5" up.

 

And so on.

 

Because the Continuous teleport can only act once on each phase of the attacker, the desired result is not obtained. Hence the belief an automatically resetting trigger (which would permit any number of Teleports regardless of the attacker's phases) is needed.

 

Either that or a 61" teleport so the target can't hit the ground after 2 phases unless the attacker chooses to shut down the power. With 60", he could hit once he reaches terminal velocity, which would end the power. A lower Speed would require more inches of teleport to prevent hitting the ground too early.

[Vorsch]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

While critising the system is fine, calling people morons for sticking with a rule may be the problem. Heck, I hold onto the 30d6 terminal velocity because it doesn't come up often enough.

 

If you're an abrasive jerk when it comes to "championing" your point of view you will not get people to see your point. They'll go "Geez, what a <snip>"

 

Learn some valid debating techniques and maybe we'll listen.

 

If in DnD an arrow fired from a horse did 20d6 more damage than the normal 1d6, people would complain, alot.

 

And i dont wish friends, i wish good hero rules.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

I think this discussion in all its myriad forms has shown that this power idea is best suited for master villains to be used as a death trap with a built in timer.

 

To get the same 'combat effect' for a character wouldn't it be much easier to just build a Teleport with Position Shift, Usable Against Others, At Range? It ends up working like a 'Super' Judo throw. If a character is flying horizontaly at 25" and I target him with this power I should be able to redirect his velocity from horizontal to vertical (down) and cause him +25d6 of damage if he hits the ground?

 

HM

[lemming]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

And i dont wish friends' date=' i wish good hero rules.[/quote']

I'm sure you're doing fine on the first point.

 

If you want to improve the rules, that's fine. More power to you. There are plenty of people that have presented differences in various rules that they think make better sense. Do they get this backlash? They might get counter arguments, but at least people will respect them.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

 

Anything else and the player is getting an attack way more potent than the points they've paid for it. In my book, they want to do 30d6 damage then (a) they better have a damn good reason why I should run railroad over my campaign limits, and ( they better pay for a 30d6 attack.

 

 

As someone else noted earlier in the thread, every person with flight effectively has this power as well, at that damage level, for free.

[lemming]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

I think this discussion in all its myriad forms has shown that this power idea is best suited for master villains to be used as a death trap with a built in timer.

 

To get the same 'combat effect' for a character wouldn't it be much easier to just build a Teleport with Position Shift, Usable Against Others, At Range? It ends up working like a 'Super' Judo throw. If a character is flying horizontaly at 25" and I target him with this power I should be able to redirect his velocity from horizontal to vertical (down) and cause him +25d6 of damage if he hits the ground?

Well, I wouldn't have him do +25d6 with that. Would be a +0 STR Move-thru.

 

I think that the best way to do this power was already discussed. It's a 30d6 EB with some limitations.

 

On the power as master villian, perhaps. When I GM, I tend to look at powers for PCs with different criteria than villians.

1. Is this power balanced?

2. Is this power going to annoy the hell out of me?

 

And #2 sometimes depends on the player. If a power is too annoying, then it's a power for villians to use. That way the player characters can beat the tar out of someone with a power that's just too annoying.

[lemming]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

As someone else noted earlier in the thread' date=' every person with flight effectively has this power as well, at that damage level, for free.[/quote']

True, but it has some limits as well. The flyer has to be in HtH range during the transport time. Free in points, but not so much in phases.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

I think this discussion in all its myriad forms has shown that this power idea is best suited for master villains to be used as a death trap with a built in timer.

 

To get the same 'combat effect' for a character wouldn't it be much easier to just build a Teleport with Position Shift, Usable Against Others, At Range? It ends up working like a 'Super' Judo throw. If a character is flying horizontaly at 25" and I target him with this power I should be able to redirect his velocity from horizontal to vertical (down) and cause him +25d6 of damage if he hits the ground?

 

HM

 

You are still flying, which is controlled movement even if someone mucks about with it, so you'd use v/3 like a move through - 8d6 + 2d6 for your mass - you wouldn't use str unless you wanted to, so 10d6 - and you stop moving!

 

Well that's how I'd rule on it anyway.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

This idea is already presented in 5E as an optional rule on pages 292-293 (5ER pages 436-437).

 

HM

 

I think this one's been answered already...

 

 

CAN I JUST REMIND EVERYONE:

 

movement up costs double

 

OK, you know what I mean: 1" up takes 2" of movement.

 

Amongst other effects this means to get to terminal drop height even if you have 30" of flight would take 7 phases, and as lemming points out you'd be in hth or other attack range the whole time. If you can let someone whale on you for 7 phases without being too fussed, you don't need to kill them this way, really.

 

If you want to do this, you're not getting a freebie with teleport gates one over the other any more than you are getting a free NND because you put a force wall englobing someone and you've defined it as 'airtight'. Either buy it as 210" teleport UAA. Silly cost, even loaded with limitations, OR buy 30d6 and some sort of entangle NOT, for pity's sakes EDM, which is almost as abused as transformation and VPPs. Phil suggested a transform - not sure how that would work...

 

I don't mind you getting side effects for free (like falling damage), so long as you paid so much for the power you had to sell both your kidneys to make the payments.

 

Whilst you can create this effect with Hero, you shouldn't.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

You are still flying, which is controlled movement even if someone mucks about with it, so you'd use v/3 like a move through - 8d6 + 2d6 for your mass - you wouldn't use str unless you wanted to, so 10d6 - and you stop moving!

 

Well that's how I'd rule on it anyway.

Movement in the Optional Velocity Damage system is Controlled or Uncontrolled. Controlled movement means the character (or object) moves under its own guidance

when attempting to hit or ram the target, so its prepared for the impact.

 

If I target a character flying at 25" velocity at an altitude of 5" with my proposed Teleport Gate how does the use of my power suddenly endow the target with knowledge that he is about ram into the ground? It may not fit your definition of a suprise attack but it sure fits mine. Assuming a SPD of 6 and use of Velocity Factor, we are talking about a difference between taking 7d6 and 18d6 (for a 100kg character).

 

General question for old school Teen Titans fans (Perez era). Did the character 'Warp' ever use an attack like this?

 

HM

[Dust Raven]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

As one of the most reapected menbers of this board' date=' due to the Intlligence of your posts, and there ability to address issues from players, both new and old, im surprised.[/quote']

Um, thanks...

 

The hero system comes under much critism, i feel justly for rules such as this. I find it strange you would champion such a rule.

 

I see many examples of supermans throw based on mega scale leaping UAO, does this not ring false with you if the rules are at once logarithmic and linear at the same time?

I'm not championing a specific rule, but the basis upon which the rule was made as was almost every rule in the system. I agree it's not remotely realistic, but it is fair, and that's why I continue to use it and would encourage others to use it as well. I just resent being called a moron just because I don't change the rules the same way you do.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

Lots of interesting discussion going on, but I think people are hung up with the SFX.

 

I would expect this to be created by something like an entangle, XDM or transform (to cover the warp looping) followed by a linked xd6 attack (possibly linked to an Uncontrolled Aid, to reflect the attack gaining dice the longer the person is in the warp).

 

Anything else and the player is getting an attack way more potent than the points they've paid for it. In my book, they want to do 30d6 damage then (a) they better have a damn good reason why I should run railroad over my campaign limits, and ( they better pay for a 30d6 attack.

I completely agree with your philosophy, but keep in mind there are many ways for a character to do terminal velocity damage to a target. The easiest is to just grab the target, fly up 105" and drop. All that takes is a way to get there an enough STR to keep the character held for however long it takes you to get there. The way to get there can be as easy as an inch of MegaScale Flight (which actually takes you even higher, but it doesn't make the splat any bigger).

 

I don't think this particular effect (given how easily countered it is) should cost much more than any other method of dropping someone.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Terminal Velocity

 

True' date=' but it has some limits as well. The flyer has to be in HtH range during the transport time. Free in points, but not so much in phases.[/quote']

Not so much in Phases for the "warp field" as well, as the character still has to fall though the gates until the attacker turns them off. Unlike being grabbed, he actually has a better chance of avoiding the gates (an Acrobatics Roll or even a DEX Roll would do it) and it's easier to catch a falling object/character is he's effectively staying in the same hex each Segment (well, not really, but I'd give a bonus to any character who flew/leaped between them to try).