Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

Not that this would reduce the math, but...

 

I've thought it would be a useful idea to replace the fractions with decimals. No more +/-1/4, but a +/-0.25. When using decimal values, you can vary the value of Modifiers more, allowing for a +0.8 or a -0.33 and such to fill in for those nitch modifiers that definately more powerful/limiting and one value, but not as powerful/limiting as the next level up.

 

Of course, this would probably add math to the system...

This is something I've been saying for years. The last time I suggested it on these boards, the idea was largely scorned. Currently, Modifiers are in "quarters" (+0.25, -0.5, +0.75, etc.). I suggest allowing "nickels" (+0.05, -0.1, +0.15, etc.) as allowable values for limitations. That way, you can keep all the current values as appropriate. I wouldn't advocate going all the way going all the way down to "pennies" (+0.01, -0.02, +0.03, etc.)

 

This actually might help overcome the math-phobia, as it would suggest an obvious solution: a cheap, four-function calculator! What's the big deal? They're not expensive, and they're easy to use. They'll deal with all those nasty fractions for you.

 

The problem with the math is that most Powers cost 5 points per level' date=' and modifiers are denominated in multiples of 1/4. If modifiers had been denominated in multiples of 1/5, and all Powers had been 5 points (or multiples thereof) per level, you could multiply the modifiers by 5 and make them +/- 1 point per level.[/quote']

And this gives us another advantage to switching to "nickels" (or "dimes") - less rounding off. I hadn't thought of this before. If the standard -0.25 is changed to -0.2, +0.5 to +0.4 etc., you'll almost always come out with whole number results*. This might help some people, provided you can keep all the costs appropriately balanced.

 

*I censored myself here. I was going to say "integer" instead of "whole number" but I suddenly feared that it would sound like a too advanced math term. Isn't that silly of me?

[zornwil]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

I believe the Hero System has 3 strikes against it in the current marketplace:

 

1- Visualization: Hero books, while containing a clean visual line, do not have the pizzazz of the books of their competitors. In our MTV society image is as important, if not more important, then any other aspect of a game line. If someone finds a book visually stimulating they are apt to purchase it. It might be a sad commentary on our society but business is about catering and cajoling the buyer not forcing them to bend to your whim.

 

2- Crunch: Hero books look like text books containing math exams to casual observers. When someone sees a new character all they see are multitudes of numbers and fractions. To someone with 2 points of "Hero-speak" it makes sense. To someone with 2 points of "d20-Common" it might as well be Latin. Removing the idea of math goes a long way toward making the game more accessible to people from other game systems. All game systems have math. Addition and subtraction are intrical parts of any game. The Hero System is one of the few which requires multiplication and division of fractions. Removing the idea of it from the game [but not it] is a win-win situation.

 

3- History: Hero Games has been around for 24 years now. It's had plenty of time to make an impression on an entire generation of gamers. Unfortunately that impression is more often negative than positive. Whether this is because of the math involved during character building/tweaking, or the implied slowness of combat, or just the Hero fans themselves who are overzealous in their defense of the system, the game has a bad track record with far too many potential fans.

 

The first two problems above can be corrected by Hero Games. They can make their books more visually appealing to buyers if the so choose. Hero Games can also look at a possible 6th Edition a few years down the road which will make as many changes to the system as 4th Edition made to 3rd. Change, in itself, is not bad if it improves the game system, as the changes from 3rd to 4th Edition did.

 

The last problem is one the fans need to deal with. The fans need to be a little less quick in their blind defense of the game. The fans also need to stop using the "it's only 1st grade math" card every time someone mentions they don't like math. Many people don't like extensive math. It's just that simple. We had a physicist in our gaming group who had the GM make his characters, not because he couldn't do the math, but because he didn't want to make gaming seem like work.

 

If new people are going to be attracted to the game then we need to stop acting like a pack of wolves every time someone says they don't like one aspect of it. The Hero fans can be the companies greatest benefit, but most of the time it seems they are arguing with potential new fans instead of encouraging them to try the game. Hero Games was not kidding when they said they need existing fans to bring in new players. That's our job. It would be nice if DoJ tried to make our job a little easier though.

I don't think they have to correct #2 and only time will correct #3. I think some system out there needs to retain the "crunchy gamer" market. But crunchy gamers are also vulnerable - no matter what they say - to visualization. Just witness all the complaints about the paper alone with 5ER! And that truly is trivial (which isn't dismissing the concern, I share other people's eyesight issues and find it harder to read).

 

But I have finally come to agree with you and others about #1. They can fight all they want this trend, but in this shrinking marketplace with the big-time producers being able to church out slicker product, the lack of such "pizzazz" is damaging, I feel.

 

Though personally, I still enjoy the old computer-style typeset the best, but that's me.

[Doppler]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

You know, this "new" hero system system seems harder than the original. Funny how you can get ten gamers in a room and come out with 11 results...

[zornwil]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

I don't think buying immunity to venom [5 points], Rattlesnake Only: 4L total cost 2 points is more complicated trying to decide what it should be worth.

 

Of course life support immunities are one of my hotspots. I don't really see them as being worth adding an additional 20 points to total life support, IMO.

Minor note, but my Champions template allows you to select any/all of the Life Support items individually, but if you get up to 30 points, you pay no more (whether you get 30 or more points of individual items). And of course you can select all for 30 points, even though individually they don't add up to that. I agree, 50 points for total LS is silly.

[zornwil]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

A really interesting and simple way of doing it would be to expand on what you list here but have advantages and limitations cancel each other out in future editions. So you can have your fireball spell with +3 advantage and -7 limitation for a net value of -4. Making the final cost 15. Something like that would really remove the math entirely and also remove an additional complicated step to character creation.

That is exactly how I originally did it, way way way back. I don't think it really affected balance but our game was pretty reckless, so hard to say.

 

I can see doing that, but I'm not sure how necessary it is, I really don't see someone not playing because of the way Advs/Lims themselves are IF this is the way it's changed - I don't think I'm exceptional in "discovering" the simple method you cited.

 

I don't like the idea at all of converting all to Adders and Subtractors because that is (IMHO) not adequately scalable.

 

As to sbarron's idea, it's really very interesting. I don't like it at all, in part because I think it does then require a massive chart for non-0/non-5 values although to be fair I personally wouldn't have a problem at all with a rule that all values round to the nearest 5 or 0 number and then have these applied. I think that might be okay, however, it all strikes me as getting more rather than less complicated because you can bet dollars to doughnuts people will want to be more granular (that's what HERO is really suited for anyway) and start trying to figure out how to do single digits. Then you're actually worse off for this system. So I think it's a bad idea but I do respect sbarron raising it.

 

What I DO like about sbarron's idea is giving names to each 1/4 level - the simple, slight, minor, standard, notable, significant, strong, remarkable, and so on are nice, and I think in general HERO could use that Marvel-like elaboration throughout to good effect (e.g., 5 points of a power is "trace", 10 is "miniscule", 15 is useful, 20 is handy, 25 is adequate, 30 is notable, 35 is imposing, 40 is powerful, 45 is unusual, 50 is superpowerful, though these aren't very good). I think this would help fight stat inflation and help give the points an analogue to "normal 20th century human adventuring". But of course this would spawn plenty of its own arguments and in that respect may end up boomeranging. Worthy of thinking about, though. An easy way to look at this as well is something like "40 = superpower just beyond normal individual human capability", "50-60 = well beyond individual human capability", etc.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

Good riddance! Those are the guys who take an hour at the start of every game to be reminded where we were at the end of last week's session and how we got there. It takes longer to update them on what happens in a session they missed than the session itself took. And they tend to forget elements of gameplay between phases. "How many dice to I roll to hit again?" [in this respect' date= Hero is advantageous to these guys since they don't have to ask which dice to roll as well.]

 

When the question is "How do we bring more gamers to Hero?" the answer is not "Good riddance!"

 

Edit: My point is, many people look at all of the math and think "Why should I do all of this work when there are many fine games out there that don't make me do this much?" I once worked it out. Just determining your characteristics requires at a minimum 48 separate arithmetic operations. There are games out there that don't make you do that many in an entire campaign.

[Guest Keneton]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

Well I wanted to add a few more points only briefly discussed. I agree with what a lot of MitchellS says about Hero. I do love this game, and sometimes I am guilty of defending it, but here is an observation i think so far missed.

 

I play in a d20 Forgotten Realms campaign and a Hero Campiagn. I GM the hero campaign, while my good friend Quasar dm's the dnd game. Mind you Quasar is a good DM, but still we find even after playing dnd since the early chainmail days we still need to look up rules, feats and spells at the table ALL of the time.

 

When we play hero, we never need to look up rules, The charcter sheet explains the effect! I admit the early learning curve is easier for d20, but the latter curve is heavily in Hero's corner.

 

With HERO you learn a system, but with dnd you seem to learn rules. Admitedly d20 took dnd from hackmaster to a vaible sytem, but nonetheless they publish books to continually contradict what was written before.

 

Once again I stress that I do play d20, and I love pretty much all RPG's. I enjoy the simple ones and the hard ones. HERO is an acquired taste, but its MY acquired taste.

 

I also agree the game product can be improved, especially in the area of glitz and glam. The HERO writers are some of the best for content. Fantasy HERO and Star HERO are two of the best treatments yet on their respective genres. What is most lacking although is GM help. Hero is big on guidelines and little on background help. A recnet big winner for HERO the USPD broke the mold in this respect. Other products like Fantasy Battlegrounds, won awrds. I encourage HERO to keep up these types of product, as most newer players and GM's need examples.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

You made the same mistake that I did earlier. You do not take a single equation for the whole thing. What you need to do is sum up the modifiers first, so

 

Mod = (-1) + (-½) = -1½

 

Now, since Mod is negative, you use the normal Limitations equation from FREd/ReFREd/SK (removing the negative from Mod):

 

Real Cost = Base / (1 + Mod) = 30 / (1 + 1½) = 30 / 2½ = 12 pts

 

Had Mod been greater than zero, you would use the Advantage equation as you did. If Mod comes out to zero, then there is no change from the base cost.

 

Right. Your method would be the same as the pseudocode that I listed in post #25. The reference that you quoted above was for casualgamer, who implied that the entire thing could be achieved just with multiplication, in post #38. Neither method is all that simpler than the current rules. You just trade a subtraction and comparison for either a multiplication or a division. And it plays all kinds of havoc with the concepts of End cost and Active points.

 

Perhaps, what is needed is a very light version of the rules, where the weapons are prelisted, and special stuff is already precalculated. Of course, it would have to be limited to perhaps a single setting or genre, without a lot of magic or superhero stuff. All in all, it would look a lot like a Hero rulebook for 3rd edition (Justice, Inc., for example).

 

YMMV,

JoeG

[zornwil]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

When the question is "How do we bring more gamers to Hero?" the answer is not "Good riddance!"

 

Edit: My point is, many people look at all of the math and think "Why should I do all of this work when there are many fine games out there that don't make me do this much?" I once worked it out. Just determining your characteristics requires at a minimum 48 separate arithmetic operations. There are games out there that don't make you do that many in an entire campaign.

It requires virtually none with software.

 

Really, in this day and age younger people can deal with getting the software or, let's face it, cracking it. The real problem is the shrinking market. And it's aging, which does also mean a general rise in affluence, so more likelihood of buying the SW anyway.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to ignore all those who can't get it or run it, but I just think the entire issue is a bit of a mountain out of a molehill in this regard. And those who like to run with literal paper and pen IMHO use the math more as a misplaced focus where it's really the overwhelming sense of choice and crunchiness/granularity that they're talking about (and this issue will manifest itself even among those who really would run the SW again IMHO).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

When the question is "How do we bring more gamers to Hero?" the answer is not "Good riddance!"

 

Should the question be "How do we bring more gamers" or "How do we bring more good gamers"? Further, are we trying to get more players, or just sell more books? In any event, my point was intended as follows:

 

- the guy who has difficulty with the math (or with a low roll sometimes being advantageous) tends alkso to be unable to remember to bring his character sheet to the game, incapable of recalling he has disadvantages and unable to start this week's game without a 3 hour recap of how we got to this point, and a 2 hour review of the game mechanics. I do not wish to game with this person.

 

- lazy gamers don't want to put in the effort to read the books either. As a result, they don't buy books.

 

In my view, then, appealing to the lowest common denominator does not attract gamers who are good for the game, or good for sales.

 

Now, a D&D gamer who can tell you which of 25 different books holds a feat he is considering is not a "lazy gamer".

 

I also likje Keneton's point - Hero may take longer to learn, but requires far less lookup in play. That, in its own way, saves time and effort.

 

I'm all for attracting new players, but I want to attract players to Hero, not chjange hero over to "Champions d20" so we can save the name, but not the game.

 

One more anecdote: at our D&D game last weekend (yes, I play both), one character has the ability to shapeshift. He was having a difficult time because his stats would change. Every time, he would pull out the books and frantically flip through pages. At one point, he said "What's the modifier for a 22 strength?". I said "The modifier is always subtract 10 from the stat, divide by two and round down. The response? "That's a lot easier than looking it up every time - thanks!". So the chart is not "universally easier".

 

Now, if we want less math intensity, by far the best idea I have seen is to publish genre books with a "Math-light" focus which lists abilities, how they work and their costs. You want math-lite Champions? Only allow powers from the USPD and other "approved" example power sources. Far less math, but far less choice. Complexity and flexibility go hand in hand.

[zornwil]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

Hugh, I somewhat disagree with you and somewhat agree. First, as a commercial endeavor, HERO of course must sell more books in general. There is a broad perception that math is "an issue", and this perception exists, I believe, in contrast to your comments, among many people that I would hardly consider math-illiterate or sloppy gamers who don't buy books. I think this perception needs to be combatted, and as part of this perhaps there are reasonable areas to "de-math". Perhaps - I'm really not sure. But at the least, I think somehow HERO needs to dispel this image, it's almost absurd.

 

However, to your point, I agree that HERO isn't the kind of game for somebody who prefers fast-and-loose rules-light systems. We don't "want" those gamers, they are not part of the demographic or appeal, and other systems help those gamers more/better. And HERO does need to preserve its customer base, I contend. There is nothing wrong with being more of a high-end product even if that means a limited audience. The problem here is that the audience in general is shrinking, and the other problem is how to assure profitability. Perhaps HERO's products are simply under-priced - I really do wonder just how much price impacts this niche high-end market. Don't get me wrong, yes, I realize some sales could be lost, but if that is more than offset by margin, at the end of the day, that is all that matters if that is sustainable long-term.

 

PS - frak, I can't rep you yet, Hugh, my 24 hour period hasn't come up.

[sbarron]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

Now' date=' if we want less math intensity, by far the best idea I have seen is to publish genre books with a "Math-light" focus which lists abilities, how they work and their costs. You want math-lite Champions? Only allow powers from the USPD and other "approved" example power sources. Far less math, but far less choice. Complexity and flexibility go hand in hand.[/quote']I agree that Mathless hero, with the calcs hidden behind the scenes, is a good idea. My idea for removing the fractions is very similar, but could be applied on a system wide basis. Using "levels" instead of "fractions" hides some of the math, which would make the system appear less complex.

 

And just to make clear, in no way does my idea of removing the fractions actually "water down" Hero. It's all the same math, with all the same calcs. The fractions are just hidden. Experienced players could certainly continue to use (1/4) instead of (1). Hero could probably provide info for both systems pretty easily. And I think it would be more approachable for new players. That's win-win all around.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

I don't see a problem including the charts. I don't see it having a big impact on the "oh no - not MATH!" perception, however. As well, I share the belief that making every ability's base cost divide evenly by 5 is impractical, meaning we need a much bigger chart than may initially be envisioned.

 

Finally, I don't see the fraction issue as a big one. Adding up 1/4's and adding up 1's is not inherently more complex. One could cewrtainly have a chart labelled in increments of 1/4's and of 1's, but again, I see it having little impact.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

Zornwil, I think we're on the same page. I think Hero needs to dispel the "look at the tough math" and "this is too complicated" image, but I don't see changing from increments of 1/4 to increments of 1 and a big chart doing that.

 

I think we agree Hero needs to focus on its area of expertise - lots of flexibility, even if that adds complexity.

 

Your pricing comment is an interesting one. Hero already is, I believe, perceived as being "high price". Here again, I think we need to focus on its high value - the amount of material in a Hero book more than justifies its price, at least in my opinion. And maybe lower sales and higher margins would ultimately be best for the company.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

Instead of having to make a chart with all the possible costs, between the 0's and 5's, you could just make a chart with percentages of base cost based on the Modifiers applied, and then just multiply the base cost by this percentage. It's still math, but this way there's only one operation. The chart would look something like this:

 

	[b]Advantages[/b]									
[b]Limitations	+0	+1/4	+1/2	+3/4	+1	+1 1/4	+1.5	+1.75	+2[/b]
[b]-0[/b]	100	125	150	175	200	225	250	275	300
[b]-0.25[/b]	80	100	120	140	160	180	200	220	240
[b]-0.5[/b]	67	83	100	117	133	150	167	183	200
[b]-0.75[/b]	57	71	86	100	114	129	143	157	171
[b]-1[/b]	50	62	75	87	100	112	125	137	150
[b]-1.25[/b]	44	56	67	78	89	100	111	122	133
[b]-1.5[/b]	40	50	60	70	80	90	100	110	120
[b]-1.75[/b]	36	45	55	64	73	82	91	100	109
[b]-2[/b]	33	42	50	58	67	75	83	92	100

 

That would be using the standard method. Using the "total modifiers" method, you only need a one-dimentional table:

 

[b]Modifier Total	% Factor[/b]
+2	300
+1.75	275
+1.5	250
+1.25	225
+1	200
+0.75	175
+0.5	150
+0.25	125
+0/-0	100
-0.25	80
-0.5	67
-0.75	57
-1	50
-1.25	44
-1.5	40
-1.75	36
-2	33

[Ternaugh]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

Instead of having to make a chart with all the possible costs, between the 0's and 5's, you could just make a chart with percentages of base cost based on the Modifiers applied, and then just multiply the base cost by this percentage. It's still math, but this way there's only one operation. The chart would look something like this:

 

	[b]Advantages[/b]									
[b]Limitations	+0	+1/4	+1/2	+3/4	+1	+1 1/4	+1.5	+1.75	+2[/b]
[b]-0[/b]	100	125	150	175	200	225	250	275	300
[b]-0.25[/b]	80	100	120	140	160	180	200	220	240
[b]-0.5[/b]	67	83	100	117	133	150	167	183	200
[b]-0.75[/b]	57	71	86	100	114	129	143	157	171
[b]-1[/b]	50	62	75	87	100	112	125	137	150
[b]-1.25[/b]	44	56	67	78	89	100	111	122	133
[b]-1.5[/b]	40	50	60	70	80	90	100	110	120
[b]-1.75[/b]	36	45	55	64	73	82	91	100	109
[b]-2[/b]	33	42	50	58	67	75	83	92	100

 

That would be using the standard method. Using the "total modifiers" method, you only need a one-dimentional table:

 

[b]Modifier Total	% Factor[/b]
+2	300
+1.75	275
+1.5	250
+1.25	225
+1	200
+0.75	175
+0.5	150
+0.25	125
+0/-0	100
-0.25	80
-0.5	67
-0.75	57
-1	50
-1.25	44
-1.5	40
-1.75	36
-2	33

Cool!

 

It does seem to charge more for powers with more advantages than limitations, and powers with more limitations than advantages get more of a bonus (than the standard Hero system), but this is probably the most workable interpretation of the add/subtract method.

 

JoeG

[TaxiMan]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

How about including HD 3.0 on a CDROM in the back of Hero 6.0 (and include USPD-lite prefabs!). Character generation problem solved. Now with really neat-o characters, don't you need the books to understand what it's all about?