Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

[sbarron]

Well, some of the math anyway. Here it is.

 

The way it works now in HERO, you have a list of advantages and limitations for each power construct showing fractional values (e.g. (-1/4), (+1/2), (-3/4), etc.), which are added up (with a +1), and then multiplied or divided by the base power cost to determine either active or real points. We've been doing it for years, and it seems simple enough to most of us. But maybe for the new player (and us once we get used to it) it would be easier to just have settings, or levels, or whatever you might call it, that represent the limits and advantages rather than actually using the fractions. What I mean by this is, rather than noting Gestures as (-1/4), note it as Gestures "Level 1," or "Level I," "Level A," or what ever. To take it further, if you have Gestures and Incantations, two level (1), or (I) or (A) limitations, the power would then be said to have "Level 2" limitations, or "Level II", or "Level B".

 

You could abreviate it with just the value, like Gestures (-1) or Gestures (-I). I just added the "-" in so you wouldn't have to call it Limitation Level 2. Though maybe LL2 and AL2 (Limit Level, Advantage Level) might work too. Work with me here, I'm making this up as I go.

 

All you would need then would be a chart that lists the various "Levels" of advantages or limitations down one side, and a list of base power costs across the top, with the APs or RPs listed within the body. It would be very similar to the chart on pg. 66 of Sidekick, but instead of "(1/4)", "(1/2)"... down the side, you would have "Level 1", "Level 2", or whatever you decide to call it.

 

You'd have to use the same system when describing limitations and advantages in the main book as well. So OAF would be listed as a "Level -4" limitation, Independent would be "Level -8." I think you get the idea.

 

Some drawbacks would be that if you are new to the system, you'd need the chart to calculate the costs of your power, where now you can do it with a calculator. Of course, the truth is that the math remains exactly the same. (1/4) just equals "Level 1." But nobody needs to worry about adding fractions this way. You just add up the whole number of the limits that you've chosen for your power, and look at the chart to calculate your Active Points, then do it again to calculate your Real Points. The chart takes all the math into account for you (even the +1), so all the math is removed.

 

Another drawback would be that you'd probably have to list every number in the real chart. Because it is possible to have base powers with 8 Base Points or be worth 6 active points, the chart would have to account for these possiblities. I put this chart together to show you what it might look like, though I only went in 5 pts segments. (note, I didn't take Hero rounding into acccount while making my chart, though you'd certainly need to make the official chart. Also, its possible the formulas I used are flawed, so this math may not be perfect...FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY!)

 

 

[b]Level of 	Base Points in Power[/b]										
[b]Advantages	5	10	15	20	25	30	35	40	45	50[/b]	

[b]1[/b]	6	13	19	25	31	38	44	50	56	63
[b]2[/b]	8	15	23	30	38	45	53	60	68	75
[b]3[/b]	9	18	26	35	44	53	61	70	79	88
[b]4[/b]	10	20	30	40	50	60	70	80	90	100
[b]5[/b]	11	23	34	45	56	68	79	90	101	113
[b]6[/b]	13	25	38	50	63	75	88	100	113	125
[b]7[/b]	14	28	41	55	69	83	96	110	124	138
[b]8[/b]	15	30	45	60	75	90	105	120	135	150
[b]9[/b]	16	33	49	65	81	98	114	130	146	163
[b]10[/b]	18	35	53	70	88	105	123	140	158	175
[b]11[/b]	19	38	56	75	94	113	131	150	169	188
[b]12[/b]	20	40	60	80	100	120	140	160	180	200
[b]13[/b]	21	43	64	85	106	128	149	170	191	213
[b]14[/b]	23	45	68	90	113	135	158	180	203	225
[b]15[/b]	24	48	71	95	119	143	166	190	214	238
[b]16[/b]	25	50	75	100	125	150	175	200	225	250
[b]17[/b]	26	53	79	105	131	158	184	210	236	263
[b]18[/b]	28	55	83	110	138	165	193	220	248	275
[b]19[/b]	29	58	86	115	144	173	201	230	259	288
[b]20[/b]	30	60	90	120	150	180	210	240	270	300

 

And before I go...maybe calling your advantages and limits different things that "level X" would be fun too. Maybe HERO could make a list of terms to represent each level of limits. Like "Basic" limits (-1/4 or "Level 1"), "Slight" Limits (-1/2 or "Level 2), up to "Horrendous" Limits (-2 1/2, or "Level 12"), etc.

 

For advantages, you could use words like "Major" advantages (+1 or "Level 4"), and "Extreme" Advantages (+2, or "Level 8). You'd probably have to leave the numbers in there somewhere because you do need to add them up in order to figure out where to look on the chart. Adding some "kewl" titles for each level of advantages and limits would add some flavor, though. Especially if you are going to have to list every number in the charts. This way, you could look at the "Major Advantages" (+1 or Level 4) chart to check the active points of your power, then the "Slight Limits" chart, to check the real cost.

 

So any thoughts? I told you it was crazy! But does it make sense?

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

There used to be a chart just like that in the 4th Ed HERO book, except that they listed the fraction instead of a whole number like your chart does; i.e., 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, and so on.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

There used to be a chart just like that in the 4th Ed HERO book' date=' except that they listed the fraction instead of a whole number like your chart does; i.e., 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, and so on.[/quote']

 

That was my thought - the chart doesn't need various levels of advantages. Of course, we could use the same chart, and "Levels" of avantages. Just add "Divide level of advantages and limitations by 4, and apply the chart".

[yamamura]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

And that chart is back in HERO 5ER.

 

G

[MitchellS]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

The chart method is a good idea but the problem is that not all powers start with either a 0 or 5 after advantages. It would end up only confusing some people, IMO.

[sbarron]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

I really think fractions are where the idea that HERO is complicated stems from. Players have to use calculators to make characters, then GMs have to use calculators to check them. Just using the whole numbers and the charts would remove that problem, without losing anything.

 

I'm aware of the existence of the charts already in HERO products. Its where I got the idea. My "idea" here isn't that HERO should create more charts. It's that HERO power construct mechanics can be presented without the fractions. The whole number examples I gave offer the exact same results, but without the "scary" and "complicated" fractions.

 

For Ex:

 

Current system:

 

Fireball Spell: EB 6d6, Explosion (-1 DC/2"; +3/4) (52 Active Points); OAF (-1), Spell (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) 15 Real Points.

 

New System: (only using +/- to signify ad vs. lim.)

 

Fireball Spell: EB 6d6, Explosion (-1 DC/2"; +3) (52 Active Points); OAF (-1), Spell (-2), Extra Time (Full Phase, -2), Gestures (-1), Incantations (-1) 15 Real Points.

 

And just to make it more clear what I meant about naming the levels something other than "(-1/4) or Level 1, another chart. This shows a name for each level of advantages (I haven't played Marvel RPG since '88, but credit to them), with the value of each level listed under value, and the base points listed across the top. Also in this chart, I have listed base points 1-10.

[b]Advantage	Value	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10[/b]
[b]Simple	         1[/b]	1	3	4	5	6	8	9	10	11	13
[b]Slight	         2[/b]	2	3	5	6	8	9	11	12	14	15
[b]Minor	         3[/b]	2	4	5	7	9	11	12	14	16	18
[b]Standard	 4[/b]	2	4	6	8	10	12	14	16	18	20
[b]Notable	         5[/b]	2	5	7	9	11	14	16	18	20	23
[b]Significant	 6[/b]	3	5	8	10	13	15	18	20	23	25
[b]Strong	         7[/b]	3	6	8	11	14	17	19	22	25	28
[b]Remarkable	 8[/b]	3	6	9	12	15	18	21	24	27	30
[b]Amazing 	 9[/b]	3	7	10	13	16	20	23	26	29	33
[b]Incredible	 10[/b]	4	7	11	14	18	21	25	28	32	35
[b]Monstrous	 11[/b]	4	8	11	15	19	23	26	30	34	38
[b]Unearthly	 12[/b]	4	8	12	16	20	24	28	32	36	40
[b]Unreal	         13[/b]	4	9	13	17	21	26	30	34	38	43

It seems to me that the only thing that keeps this chart from being the only chart you need for calculating active points is "Hero" rounding. A 12 Base points power with "Simple Advantages" Active cost could be calculated by adding the cost of the base 10 for "simple" with the cost of 2. Same thing for a 37 point power. Just mutliply 10's AP for you advantage level x 3 and add the AP from 7. I've been testing on a bigger chart to see if this method works, and it seems to hold together pretty well. I'd think it be the same for limits, but I haven't checked it.

[MitchellS]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

A really interesting and simple way of doing it would be to expand on what you list here but have advantages and limitations cancel each other out in future editions. So you can have your fireball spell with +3 advantage and -7 limitation for a net value of -4. Making the final cost 15. Something like that would really remove the math entirely and also remove an additional complicated step to character creation.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

A really interesting and simple way of doing it would be to expand on what you list here but have advantages and limitations cancel each other out in future editions. So you can have your fireball spell with +3 advantage and -7 limitation for a net value of -4. Making the final cost 10 [with 5Er saying it costs 15]. Something like that would really remove the math entirely and also remove an additional complicated step to character creation.

That's a really intriguing idea. There would be some details to figure out (such as how this procedure would interface with Frameworks), but it could make character creation much more streamlined.

 

Let's see how it would work: 10d6 EB (50 Active Points) AP (+½) Reduced END (+¼) OIF (-½) for a total of +¼ Advantage. 50 x 1¼ = 62 Real Points

 

Repped.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

This is a really good idea for making D&D players more comfortable with HERO. After all, they're more used to reading values off of charts than doing math. Personally, I've always prefered seeing the formula behind the numbers, rather than just seeing the numbers. It gives the system more credibility. It says, "Hey, we didn't just make up these numbers arbitrarily! There's a consistant equation that we use." You feel more confident that you're being treated fairly when you see how they come up with the prices. But for people who don't need that, the "levels of Advantage/Limitation" charts would be quite easy to use. The word "level" should make D&D players feel right at home.

 

However, I don't like the "titles" for the levels (Slight, Minor, Standard, etc.). That really doesn't add any value. Even the most math-phobic D&D player knows that Level 4 is bigger than Level 2.

 

A really interesting and simple way of doing it would be to expand on what you list here but have advantages and limitations cancel each other out in future editions. So you can have your fireball spell with +3 advantage and -7 limitation for a net value of -4. Making the final cost 15. Something like that would really remove the math entirely and also remove an additional complicated step to character creation.

I have often thought about doing this. It could certainly work, but it is a significant change to the system. The numbers don't always work out the same:

 

100 base, +1/2 (A2), -1/4 (L1) = 120 with the current system, but

100 base, +1/4 (total A2-L1=A1) = 125.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

Not that this would reduce the math, but...

 

I've thought it would be a useful idea to replace the fractions with decimals. No more +/-1/4, but a +/-0.25. When using decimal values, you can vary the value of Modifiers more, allowing for a +0.8 or a -0.33 and such to fill in for those nitch modifiers that definately more powerful/limiting and one value, but not as powerful/limiting as the next level up.

 

Of course, this would probably add math to the system...

[Shocker]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

As much as I'd like to add players to the system, I kinda like the math (ducking now!). I was a C- average math student until I started playing role-playing games...

 

Now a coil of rope weighs 4 pounds...

Water skin is 8 pounds...

Armor 14.5 pounds...

Factor in the Lighten Advantage...

 

 

I got straight As in math after all of that. If the literary buffs can use Harry Potter to encourage kids to read, I say use gaming to encourage them to do math!

[Doppler]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

Kind of looks like the Mayfair DC matrix.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

The problem with the math is that most Powers cost 5 points per level, and modifiers are denominated in multiples of 1/4. If modifiers had been denominated in multiples of 1/5, and all Powers had been 5 points (or multiples thereof) per level, you could multiply the modifiers by 5 and make them +/- 1 point per level.

[Citizen Keen]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

I like the math because it's transparent. And I'm not a math nerd - my BA = English. I just like to see where the points are coming from, not that they're arbitrary.

 

But interesting idea, and repped.

[sbarron]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

Personally' date=' I've always prefered seeing the formula behind the numbers, rather than just seeing the numbers. It gives the system more credibility.[/quote']

As much as I'd like to add players to the system' date=' I kinda like the math (ducking now!). [/quote']

I like the math because it's transparent. And I'm not a math nerd - my BA = English. I just like to see where the points are coming from' date=' not that they're arbitrary.[/quote']That's why you are all playing Hero. It has the math that makes it consistant. But that's what I think is great about this this "level" format. It doesn't actually change the math at all (except for the rounding part). It's all still there if you want to look at it. But if you don't want to mess with the math (or particularly the fractions), you don't have to. You can just add up whole numbers and use the chart.

 

Maybe this would be a good idea for the Sidekick for Hero 6th Ed. Hero without the fractions...

[MitchellS]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

I definitely think it would be a great addition to 6th edition. Removing the idea of math is really more important than removing the math itself. All games have some math involved. If you can limit Hero to addition, subtraction, and only 1 use of division or multiplication you are way ahead of the curve. Using my additional suggestion does change the math slightly but a few points are nothing to squabble over if you can remove the complexity of it all in the eyes of a new gamer, IMO.

[MitchellS]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

I've seriously given a lot of thought to writing a 6th edition myself and using it to game with. We have so many house rules and adjustments after 24 years that it might just be easier to rewrite everything then it is to try and keep track of them.

 

I really like this sbarron's chart idea along with my adding/subtracting idea. Now all I need to do is throw in removing figured characteristics, change the cost of some skills so they are more consistent, adjust the cost of all powers so they end in 0 or 5, change the values of some advantages and limitations, and make some modifications to combat and you have a very workable 6th edition.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

I've seriously given a lot of thought to writing a 6th edition myself and using it to game with. We have so many house rules and adjustments after 24 years that it might just be easier to rewrite everything then it is to try and keep track of them.

 

I really like this sbarron's chart idea along with my adding/subtracting idea. Now all I need to do is throw in removing figured characteristics, change the cost of some skills so they are more consistent, adjust the cost of all powers so they end in 0 or 5, change the values of some advantages and limitations, and make some modifications to combat and you have a very workable 6th edition.

 

 

Or a new game system entirely, I suppose.

 

I can't see all powers ending in 0 or 5. "LS: Immune to Rattlesnake Venom" doesn't strike me as worth 5 points. I suppose you could start with 5 and 10 point broad LS increements, and apply limitations if you're only immune to a subset, but to me that makes it more complex, not less complex.

[MitchellS]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

Or a new game system entirely, I suppose.

 

I can't see all powers ending in 0 or 5. "LS: Immune to Rattlesnake Venom" doesn't strike me as worth 5 points. I suppose you could start with 5 and 10 point broad LS increements, and apply limitations if you're only immune to a subset, but to me that makes it more complex, not less complex.

I don't think buying immunity to venom [5 points], Rattlesnake Only: 4L total cost 2 points is more complicated trying to decide what it should be worth.

 

Of course life support immunities are one of my hotspots. I don't really see them as being worth adding an additional 20 points to total life support, IMO.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

To echo some statements - that chart is in 5ER and (maybe) Sidekick. Regardless, here are some things to consider:

 

With the +/- leveling system proposed by MitchellS, the diminishing returns are altered. That isn't to say it's not a good idea, but that does change the system significantly (but not drastically). However, having played a system that does this (GURPS Supers) it always felt less accurate (other word?).

 

I think the diminishing returns system and the fractional modifiers actually are an ideal way of doing it because then the modifier values are the math. Sure a chart can make things easier, but why make it more challenging to do the math? It seems you are trading one for the other.

[StGrimblefig]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

That's a really intriguing idea. There would be some details to figure out (such as how this procedure would interface with Frameworks), but it could make character creation much more streamlined.

 

Let's see how it would work: 10d6 EB (50 Active Points) AP (+½) Reduced END (+¼) OIF (-½) for a total of +¼ Advantage. 50 x 1¼ = 62 Real Points

 

Repped.

Unfortunately there is a problem with the math. What happens when the limitations are equal to or greater than one plus the advantages? Given the formula that you suggested:

 

Real Pts = Base Pts x (1 + Adv - Lim)

 

if for example, you have +¼ in advantages and -1¼ in limitations this becomes:

 

Real Pts = Base Pts x (1 + ¼ - 1¼)

Real Pts = Base Pts x 0

 

Wow! Free Powers!

 

It gets even more fun if the limitations are greater:

 

Real Pts = Base Pts x (1 + ¼ - 1½)

Real Pts = Base Pts x (-¼)

 

Now I get free points for taking the power.

 

For reference, here are a couple tables I created (using a spreadsheet -- I'm not THAT geeky) using a base cost of 100. The first one is the standard Fred cost structure, Real = (Base x (1+Adv)) / (1+Lim) :

 

         Limitations                                           
        0.25       0.50     0.75     1.00     1.25     1.50     1.75     2.00     2.25     2.50     2.75     3.00     3.25     3.50     3.75     4.00

A  0.25  100.00    83.33    71.43    62.50    55.56    50.00    45.45    41.67    38.46    35.71    33.33    31.25    29.41    27.78    26.32    25.00
d  0.50  120.00   100.00    85.71    75.00    66.67    60.00    54.55    50.00    46.15    42.86    40.00    37.50    35.29    33.33    31.58    30.00
v  0.75  140.00   116.67   100.00    87.50    77.78    70.00    63.64    58.33    53.85    50.00    46.67    43.75    41.18    38.89    36.84    35.00
a  1.00  160.00   133.33   114.29   100.00    88.89    80.00    72.73    66.67    61.54    57.14    53.33    50.00    47.06    44.44    42.11    40.00
n  1.25  180.00   150.00   128.57   112.50   100.00    90.00    81.82    75.00    69.23    64.29    60.00    56.25    52.94    50.00    47.37    45.00
t  1.50  200.00   166.67   142.86   125.00   111.11   100.00    90.91    83.33    76.92    71.43    66.67    62.50    58.82    55.56    52.63    50.00
a  1.75  220.00   183.33   157.14   137.50   122.22   110.00   100.00    91.67    84.62    78.57    73.33    68.75    64.71    61.11    57.89    55.00
g  2.00  240.00   200.00   171.43   150.00   133.33   120.00   109.09   100.00    92.31    85.71    80.00    75.00    70.59    66.67    63.16    60.00
e  2.25  260.00   216.67   185.71   162.50   144.44   130.00   118.18   108.33   100.00    92.86    86.67    81.25    76.47    72.22    68.42    65.00
s  2.50  280.00   233.33   200.00   175.00   155.56   140.00   127.27   116.67   107.69   100.00    93.33    87.50    82.35    77.78    73.68    70.00
  2.75  300.00   250.00   214.29   187.50   166.67   150.00   136.36   125.00   115.38   107.14   100.00    93.75    88.24    83.33    78.95    75.00
  3.00  320.00   266.67   228.57   200.00   177.78   160.00   145.45   133.33   123.08   114.29   106.67   100.00    94.12    88.89    84.21    80.00
  3.25  340.00   283.33   242.86   212.50   188.89   170.00   154.55   141.67   130.77   121.43   113.33   106.25   100.00    94.44    89.47    85.00
  3.50  360.00   300.00   257.14   225.00   200.00   180.00   163.64   150.00   138.46   128.57   120.00   112.50   105.88   100.00    94.74    90.00
  3.75  380.00   316.67   271.43   237.50   211.11   190.00   172.73   158.33   146.15   135.71   126.67   118.75   111.76   105.56   100.00    95.00
  4.00  400.00   333.33   285.71   250.00   222.22   200.00   181.82   166.67   153.85   142.86   133.33   125.00   117.65   111.11   105.26   100.00

 

The second is the simplified scheme proposed above, Real = Base x (1 + Adv - Lim) :

           Limitations                                                                                                                                     
          0.25     0.50     0.75     1.00     1.25     1.50     1.75     2.00     2.25     2.50     2.75     3.00     3.25     3.50     3.75     4.00                                               

A  0.25  100.00    75.00    50.00    25.00     0.00   -25.00   -50.00   -75.00  -100.00  -125.00  -150.00  -175.00  -200.00  -225.00  -250.00  -275.00           
d  0.50  125.00   100.00    75.00    50.00    25.00     0.00   -25.00   -50.00   -75.00  -100.00  -125.00  -150.00  -175.00  -200.00  -225.00  -250.00           
v  0.75  150.00   125.00   100.00    75.00    50.00    25.00     0.00   -25.00   -50.00   -75.00  -100.00  -125.00  -150.00  -175.00  -200.00  -225.00           
a  1.00  175.00   150.00   125.00   100.00    75.00    50.00    25.00     0.00   -25.00   -50.00   -75.00  -100.00  -125.00  -150.00  -175.00  -200.00           
n  1.25  200.00   175.00   150.00   125.00   100.00    75.00    50.00    25.00     0.00   -25.00   -50.00   -75.00  -100.00  -125.00  -150.00  -175.00           
t  1.50  225.00   200.00   175.00   150.00   125.00   100.00    75.00    50.00    25.00     0.00   -25.00   -50.00   -75.00  -100.00  -125.00  -150.00           
a  1.75  250.00   225.00   200.00   175.00   150.00   125.00   100.00    75.00    50.00    25.00     0.00   -25.00   -50.00   -75.00  -100.00  -125.00           
g  2.00  275.00   250.00   225.00   200.00   175.00   150.00   125.00   100.00    75.00    50.00    25.00     0.00   -25.00   -50.00   -75.00  -100.00           
e  2.25  300.00   275.00   250.00   225.00   200.00   175.00   150.00   125.00   100.00    75.00    50.00    25.00     0.00   -25.00   -50.00   -75.00            
s  2.50  325.00   300.00   275.00   250.00   225.00   200.00   175.00   150.00   125.00   100.00    75.00    50.00    25.00     0.00   -25.00   -50.00            
  2.75  350.00   325.00   300.00   275.00   250.00   225.00   200.00   175.00   150.00   125.00   100.00    75.00    50.00    25.00     0.00   -25.00            
  3.00  375.00   350.00   325.00   300.00   275.00   250.00   225.00   200.00   175.00   150.00   125.00   100.00    75.00    50.00    25.00     0.00           
  3.25  400.00   375.00   350.00   325.00   300.00   275.00   250.00   225.00   200.00   175.00   150.00   125.00   100.00    75.00    50.00    25.00       
  3.50  425.00   400.00   375.00   350.00   325.00   300.00   275.00   250.00   225.00   200.00   175.00   150.00   125.00   100.00    75.00    50.00    
  3.75  450.00   425.00   400.00   375.00   350.00   325.00   300.00   275.00   250.00   225.00   200.00   175.00   150.00   125.00   100.00    75.00 
  4.00  475.00   450.00   425.00   400.00   375.00   350.00   325.00   300.00   275.00   250.00   225.00   200.00   175.00   150.00   125.00   100.00

 

Notice how the simplified calculations diverge more from the original the father you get away from the diagonal.

[MitchellS]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

StGrimblefig, I think you misinterpreted what we were saying here. The process itself does not change as far as how the final advantage or limitation is handled within the system.

 

So it's not 1+ 1/4 - 11/4 = 0.

 

It's +1/4 - 11/4 = -1, which then you increase by 1 [as you currently do within the system] when doing your division.

 

The process only changes as advantages and limitations can cancel each other out.

[Guest Keneton]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

What is everyone afraid of? My child is in elementary school and can do this math.

 

What scares me is need 3 books at $30 each plus character sheets at 12.96 + a piss poor char gen from d&d (etools and pcgen equally bad) that RARELY gets updated and produces a non 3.5 compliant character

 

or Fred Revised + Herodesigner for less money and tons of support, and it does all the math.

 

Do that scary math.

 

I enjoy good ideas to improve hero, but can never understandf teh need to dumb it down to d20 level. I road a big wheel befire I got a bike, and now I drive a car. I dont want to make my car a big wheel again.

[MitchellS]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

What is everyone afraid of? My child is in elementary school and can do this math.

 

What scares me is need 3 books at $30 each plus character sheets at 12.96 + a piss poor char gen from d&d (etools and pcgen equally bad) that RARELY gets updated and produces a non 3.5 compliant character

 

or Fred Revised + Herodesigner for less money and tons of support, and it does all the math.

 

Do that scary math.

 

I enjoy good ideas to improve hero, but can never understandf teh need to dumb it down to d20 level. I road a big wheel befire I got a bike, and now I drive a car. I dont want to make my car a big wheel again.

You might not have heard but gamers don't pour into the Hero community. They ooze in like cold molasses. If the system's going to survive long-term then the game needs to meet the players on their level. We can't expect the players to rise to our level. The Hero community being condescending every time someone mentions the math needs to stop or we're going to be dealing with another dark ages sooner or later. The fact is most people find math difficult and boring, even if we don't. The perception needs to be address and fixed otherwise most people are just going to keep staying away.

 

I have 24 years of experience with the system and I don't make any characters beyond basic bricks without chargen software now. I just don't want to waste the time, and if I, someone who loves the game, don't want to I certainly don't expect new players to want to either.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

StGrimblefig, I think you misinterpreted what we were saying here. The process itself does not change as far as how the final advantage or limitation is handled within the system.

 

So it's not 1+ 1/4 - 11/4 = 0.

 

It's +1/4 - 11/4 = -1, which then you increase by 1 [as you currently do within the system] when doing your division.

 

The process only changes as advantages and limitations can cancel each other out.

 

Which generates a division by zero error.

 

I think that what you are looking for is something akin to:

 

if (adv - lim)=0 then Real Cost = Active Cost

else if (adv - lim) > 0 then Real Cost = Active Cost *(1+ (adv - lim))

else Real Cost=Active Cost / (1+(-(adv - lim)))

 

Which isn't nearly as simple as it first appears.

 

JoeG