Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

[StGrimblefig]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

StGrimblefig, I think you misinterpreted what we were saying here. The process itself does not change as far as how the final advantage or limitation is handled within the system.

 

So it's not 1+ 1/4 - 11/4 = 0.

 

It's +1/4 - 11/4 = -1, which then you increase by 1 [as you currently do within the system] when doing your division.

 

The process only changes as advantages and limitations can cancel each other out.

Ah. Yes, I misinterpreted that. So, to make it clear for anyone else who is as thick-headed as I am: You EITHER multply OR divide depending upon whether the result is positive or negative, and a zero is no advantage/no limitation. Do I have it correct?

 

I was trying to oversimplify it down to a single equation.

[Guest Keneton]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

I understand your point. I also understand how people might feel intimdated by HERO at first glance. I get that even with Chess. Sidekick is a great way to introduce player to HERO that avoids a lot of the system grit. In fact the ideas in thsi thread are actually quite good. My point is that I do not feel intimidated and I dont feel that the people on these boards, an intelligent group in general, should not feel intimidated.

 

That said, I do not feel the system is for everyone. I feel that the mechanics of HERO are actually easier than 3x d&D once learned, and that character generation, depite the math is also just as easy.

 

As another argument, would 3x d&d fans want to move to TOON mechanics, because they are easier? In the same way I do not want to see Hero reduced as well.

 

One of my old favorires was Traveller. making characters and ships was a game unto itself. Same with Battletech. Maybe I am just that way, but maybe otehr feel like me.

 

my 2 ep.

[MitchellS]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

Ah. Yes, I misinterpreted that. So, to make it clear for anyone else who is as thick-headed as I am: You EITHER multply OR divide depending upon whether the result is positive or negative, and a zero is no advantage/no limitation. Do I have it correct?

 

I was trying to oversimplify it down to a single equation.

Yes, that's it. Now you've got it.

[MitchellS]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

I understand your point. I also understand how people might feel intimdated by HERO at first glance. I get that even with Chess. Sidekick is a great way to introduce player to HERO that avoids a lot of the system grit. In fact the ideas in thsi thread are actually quite good. My point is that I do not feel intimidated and I dont feel that the people on these boards, an intelligent group in general, should not feel intimidated.

 

That said, I do not feel the system is for everyone. I feel that the mechanics of HERO are actually easier than 3x d&D once learned, and that character generation, depite the math is also just as easy.

 

As another argument, would 3x d&d fans want to move to TOON mechanics, because they are easier? In the same way I do not want to see Hero reduced as well.

 

One of my old favorires was Traveller. making characters and ships was a game unto itself. Same with Battletech. Maybe I am just that way, but maybe otehr feel like me.

 

my 2 ep.

I'm with you on this. Honestly. I just also understand that there are probably thousands of people who are turned off by the Hero System for no other reason than the math and the need to multiplying and dividing by fractions. If you can hide that one aspect of the game from them [as in the examples above] you stand a better chance of them giving it an honest try rather than simply waiting for the cream of the crop to get sick of d20 and come on over. The waiting for the cream to come to its senses is taking too long.

[sbarron]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

The process only changes as advantages and limitations can cancel each other out.

With advantages and limits canceling each other out, we would lose the ability of seeing APs calculated as part of the creation process. I guess you could still do it, but doing so would defeat the purpose of removing that step. It might make evaluating power levels more difficult. Also, what about calculating END use? Without the real points, how would you do it?

 

Ex:

 

Fireball Spell: EB 6d6, Explosion (-1 DC/2"; +3) (52 Active Points); OAF (-4), Spell (-2), Extra Time (Full Phase, -2), Gestures (-1), Incantations (-1) 11 Real Points.

 

Or

 

Fireball Spell: EB 6d6, Explosion (-1 DC/2"; +3), AP (+2); OAF (-4), Spell (-2), Extra Time (Full Phase, -2), Gestures (-1), Incantations (-1), Increased END (-2) 11 Real Points.

 

The second spell is obviously more powerful than the first, but without Active points and END expenditure defined, its hard to know by how much (other than experience doing this, which newbies won't have).

 

Not trying to be difficult, just going with the idea and seeing where it leads...

[sbarron]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

I'm with you on this. Honestly. I just also understand that there are probably thousands of people who are turned off by the Hero System for no other reason than the math and the need to multiplying and dividing by fractions. If you can hide that one aspect of the game from them [as in the examples above] you stand a better chance of them giving it an honest try rather than simply waiting for the cream of the crop to get sick of d20 and come on over. The waiting for the cream to come to its senses is taking too long.

I totally agree with this, which is why I started trying to cook up schemes to make Hero seem more accessable, without losing what it is.

 

As for waiting for D20 gamers to come on over...here's another theory. If D&D has more players than ever before (or whatever the WoTC positive press says) it seems to me that it is only a matter of time before those of them that have that "special something," begin to get bored with D20's limitations and start looking for something better. I just hope HERO is around to scoop them up. Time will tell.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

What is everyone afraid of? My child is in elementary school and can do this math.

 

It's not that people are afraid of it. But...what's 60 times 1.75 divided by 2.25? Ooo, too late, Short Attention Span Guy has just gone on to White Wolf.

[Rick]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

Well I always tell people about the chart in the BBB, Sidekick and now 5th revised. You don't need to do fractions just look at the chart and round or estimate. Same with OCV and DCV.

[Guest Keneton]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

It's not that people are afraid of it. But...what's 60 times 1.75 divided by 2.25? Ooo' date=' too late, Short Attention Span Guy has just gone on to White Wolf.[/quote']

 

Man that sucks. No hot Goth chicks playing Hero!

 

Seriously, I am not so sure that the suggestions, although good, have that much to do with Math, or the overall impression that Hero is too hard. I mean part of the problem is that Steve writes a comprehensive rule set, that is quite wordy and intimidating in appearance. That said, it has evolved to this, and not overnight.

 

Sidekick does attempt to make Hero more simple, but we as players need to teach the game instead of incouraging players to cahnge the rules to simplify the game. I think waht happens in most cases is they change one rule that changes another, etc etc, and than the whole thing is a big mess.

 

At the cons, this is clearly evident. I assure you I run a complete game at the cons. Players in my games can be novice to expert and they do learn the rules as they play.

 

The solution seems not to change the game, but to change the attitude we have that its too hard. We CAN teach people how to play this, and once they have, they'll not go back.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

It's not that people are afraid of it. But...what's 60 times 1.75 divided by 2.25? Ooo' date=' too late, Short Attention Span Guy has just gone on to White Wolf.[/quote']

 

Good riddance! Those are the guys who take an hour at the start of every game to be reminded where we were at the end of last week's session and how we got there. It takes longer to update them on what happens in a session they missed than the session itself took. And they tend to forget elements of gameplay between phases. "How many dice to I roll to hit again?" [in this respect, Hero is advantageous to these guys since they don't have to ask which dice to roll as well.]

 

And, of course, they get bored with their characters on a regular basis, and change them every fifth session, at least.

 

I can do without those players, thanks.

 

PS: Yeah, we lost all the purchases this person may have made, but he doesn't have the attention span to read a whole book, so he normally just sponges rules issues from others anyway. And we avoided losing the gamers who can read and think to frustration at this guy's inability to ever move the game forward.

[casualplayer]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

What I have felt would work best, for a long time, is to convert over to decimal the +/- of advantages and disads and apply the sum. base cost * ( gross advantage value - gross disad value.) Inspect with a magnifying glass any power construct that has a gross of +/- 1 because someone is probably trying to munchkin.

 

It would change some point totals, but what edition change hasn't changed point totals for power constructs? None that I can think of.

 

Fractions do scare people, as silly as that might sound. It is the single most commonly despised aspect of grade school, even moreso than public speaking.

 

Now to stick with the car analogy, most drivers want to get in, turn the key and go. There is a lot of money to be made in maintenence and chrome rims. Salesmen prefer to deal in high volume movers.

 

HERO looks like, to a casual observer, a daunting block of metal and access to a tool-and-die shop. With luck you can befriend someone with skill in HERO engineering. Someday you will drive away pleased. Someday, if you don't give up first.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

Inspect with a magnifying glass any power construct that has a gross of +/- 1 because someone is probably trying to munchkin.

 

This kind of blows OAF, doesn't it? Or Act 11-. Or four charges, or 3x END. None of these seem hugely munchkin builds to me. Of course, if it meant I got the power for free...

[casualplayer]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

I knew I blew this writeup, but when I thought of what I did wrong I was away from the computer. Base Cost * (1 + gross advantages - gross disadvantages.)

 

I don't think it would be a straight conversion from fractions to decimal. If you are making this much of a change, might as well review and recost. x3 END is not worth -1 as the rules are now, and sure wouldn't be worth -1.0 under decimal revision.

 

I said magnifying glass, not stop sign.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

Once all the advantages and limitations are recosted (presumably, with doay's -1 being a -1/2, and the current -2 becoming -2/3), will it really be a system which "obviously" has less math, or will the Mathophobes merely have a different set of math which they don't want to deal with?

 

The system as it stands works quite well. It would take a lot of work to revise all the costs in the manner you suggest, and get the system in shape. Unless there is a huge payoff, and I don't see one, I wouldn't be inclined to make that investment.

[GaryB]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

The thing I dont get, is you only have to do this math essentially ONCE! When you create the character. Thats not so bad. Of course, spending experience may have to recalculate, but it's still not so bad. PLUS, when you have nice programs like Hero Designer, life gets much easier.

 

I think people get more confused at the openess of the system more than the math. People dont understand the open ended power system and are too used to closed off specifically worded abilities (ala d20).

[Ternaugh]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

I knew I blew this writeup, but when I thought of what I did wrong I was away from the computer. Base Cost * (1 + gross advantages - gross disadvantages.)

 

I don't think it would be a straight conversion from fractions to decimal. If you are making this much of a change, might as well review and recost. x3 END is not worth -1 as the rules are now, and sure wouldn't be worth -1.0 under decimal revision.

 

I said magnifying glass, not stop sign.

 

Foxbat Special:

6d6 EB, OAF-Ping Pong Pistol (-1), 8 Charges (-1/2)

 

Base cost=30

Real cost= Base cost * (1 +0 -1 1/2)= 30 * (1 - 1 1/2) = 30*(-1/2) = -15 Points.

 

So, we'll pay you 15 points if you take this Ping Pong Pistol. And if you only need 6 shots, it's 23 points back!

 

At some point with limitations greater than advantages, you will have to divide in order to get the costs somewhat correct (or, you can ignore the sign, add 1, take the reciprocal, and then multiply...try explaining that to a newbie). And you are very close to the same calculations needed for standard Hero.

 

Now, Fuzion did use adders for their modifiers, which was a simplified way to look at powers. Given the pre-chewed state of the powers involved, however, it was really just a way to perform minor tweaks. And if you ever had to do major adjustments to a power, Fuzion basically handed you back over to the Hero 4th rules to fix it.

 

In truth, I don't understand the "decimalization" part of your post. If what you are saying is that the values shouldn't be listed as a fraction, then they're easily converted (and with Hero math, you need to know only 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, all easily convertible to decimals). Now if you are arguing that the various limitations are set wrong, then that's a different thread.

 

As always, YMMV,

JoeG

[Sean Waters]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

Good riddance! Those are the guys who take an hour at the start of every game to be reminded where we were at the end of last week's session and how we got there. It takes longer to update them on what happens in a session they missed than the session itself took. And they tend to forget elements of gameplay between phases. "How many dice to I roll to hit again?" [in this respect' date= Hero is advantageous to these guys since they don't have to ask which dice to roll as well.]

 

And, of course, they get bored with their characters on a regular basis, and change them every fifth session, at least.

 

I can do without those players, thanks.

 

PS: Yeah, we lost all the purchases this person may have made, but he doesn't have the attention span to read a whole book, so he normally just sponges rules issues from others anyway. And we avoided losing the gamers who can read and think to frustration at this guy's inability to ever move the game forward.

 

Whilst I agree with the sentiment, there is a lot more WW and DnD stuff on a lot more shelves than Hero stuff because more people buy it. If more people played Hero there's be more Hero stuff on more shelves and more players to chose from, so the WW wannabes can go and for their own game group: playing Hero.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

Whilst I agree with the sentiment' date=' there is a lot more WW and DnD stuff on a lot more shelves than Hero stuff because more people buy it. If more people played Hero there's be more Hero stuff on more shelves and more players to chose from, so the WW wannabes can go and for their own game group: playing Hero. [/quote']

 

What's the point if I basically have to make Hero into WWor DnD to make it work? If I want to play a game of DnD, I'll play it - not some Hero Hybrid product.

 

I do understand the issue of attracting more players, but I don't think the answer is "make it more like DnD". In fact, when I first read the 3rd Ed DnD books, I was interested to note how Hero concepts (like the "half move and attack") had made their way over to DnD.

 

The answer is "sell Hero on its merits". I'd think pre-fab Hero settings (Champions Sidekick, as referred to in another thread) as entry points may be a good idea, but I don't believe that watering down the Hero system serves Hero games present or future.

[Rick]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

Monte Cook was a former Hero line editor, back with IronCrown, that's why there are hero-isms in D&D these days.

[MitchellS]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

I believe the Hero System has 3 strikes against it in the current marketplace:

 

1- Visualization: Hero books, while containing a clean visual line, do not have the pizzazz of the books of their competitors. In our MTV society image is as important, if not more important, then any other aspect of a game line. If someone finds a book visually stimulating they are apt to purchase it. It might be a sad commentary on our society but business is about catering and cajoling the buyer not forcing them to bend to your whim.

 

2- Crunch: Hero books look like text books containing math exams to casual observers. When someone sees a new character all they see are multitudes of numbers and fractions. To someone with 2 points of "Hero-speak" it makes sense. To someone with 2 points of "d20-Common" it might as well be Latin. Removing the idea of math goes a long way toward making the game more accessible to people from other game systems. All game systems have math. Addition and subtraction are intrical parts of any game. The Hero System is one of the few which requires multiplication and division of fractions. Removing the idea of it from the game [but not it] is a win-win situation.

 

3- History: Hero Games has been around for 24 years now. It's had plenty of time to make an impression on an entire generation of gamers. Unfortunately that impression is more often negative than positive. Whether this is because of the math involved during character building/tweaking, or the implied slowness of combat, or just the Hero fans themselves who are overzealous in their defense of the system, the game has a bad track record with far too many potential fans.

 

The first two problems above can be corrected by Hero Games. They can make their books more visually appealing to buyers if the so choose. Hero Games can also look at a possible 6th Edition a few years down the road which will make as many changes to the system as 4th Edition made to 3rd. Change, in itself, is not bad if it improves the game system, as the changes from 3rd to 4th Edition did.

 

The last problem is one the fans need to deal with. The fans need to be a little less quick in their blind defense of the game. The fans also need to stop using the "it's only 1st grade math" card every time someone mentions they don't like math. Many people don't like extensive math. It's just that simple. We had a physicist in our gaming group who had the GM make his characters, not because he couldn't do the math, but because he didn't want to make gaming seem like work.

 

If new people are going to be attracted to the game then we need to stop acting like a pack of wolves every time someone says they don't like one aspect of it. The Hero fans can be the companies greatest benefit, but most of the time it seems they are arguing with potential new fans instead of encouraging them to try the game. Hero Games was not kidding when they said they need existing fans to bring in new players. That's our job. It would be nice if DoJ tried to make our job a little easier though.

[StGrimblefig]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

Foxbat Special:

6d6 EB, OAF-Ping Pong Pistol (-1), 8 Charges (-1/2)

 

Base cost=30

Real cost= Base cost * (1 +0 -1 1/2)= 30 * (1 - 1 1/2) = 30*(-1/2) = -15 Points.

 

So, we'll pay you 15 points if you take this Ping Pong Pistol. And if you only need 6 shots, it's 23 points back!

...

As always, YMMV,

JoeG

You made the same mistake that I did earlier. You do not take a single equation for the whole thing. What you need to do is sum up the modifiers first, so

 

Mod = (-1) + (-½) = -1½

 

Now, since Mod is negative, you use the normal Limitations equation from FREd/ReFREd/SK (removing the negative from Mod):

 

Real Cost = Base / (1 + Mod) = 30 / (1 + 1½) = 30 / 2½ = 12 pts

 

Had Mod been greater than zero, you would use the Advantage equation as you did. If Mod comes out to zero, then there is no change from the base cost.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

Mod = (-1) + (-½) = -1½

 

Now, since Mod is negative, you use the normal Limitations equation from FREd/ReFREd/SK (removing the negative from Mod):

 

Real Cost = Base / (1 + Mod) = 30 / (1 + 1½) = 30 / 2½ = 12 pts

 

Had Mod been greater than zero, you would use the Advantage equation as you did. If Mod comes out to zero, then there is no change from the base cost.

 

So instead of "reading like a math exam" (to quote some other posters), the rule will now read like a Basic-language computer program. I'm not seeing the significant improvement here.

[MitchellS]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

So instead of "reading like a math exam" (to quote some other posters)' date=' the rule will now read like a Basic-language computer program. I'm not seeing the significant improvement here.[/quote']

What you are seeing there has nothing to do with anything I or sbarron posted earlier in this thread, in case you had forgotten.

[The Hyborian]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

A couple of years ago I played in an Abberant campaign (The White Wolf superhero system). I remember discussing the Hero system once with the GM, and he said something like "I tried it once, you needed sliderule to play". Honestly, I really didnt find Hero any more difficult,at least in gameplay,than the Storyteller System. But I think its quite correct that what freak people out is the fact that there are numbers over 20 and you have to be able to add fractions. I personally have always been of the opinion that anyone who cant add fractions, multiply and divide should go back to remedial junior high math. I mean, what good is taking the 25 point social limitation Gamer Geek if you dont spend at least a few of those points in Int. But, non the less, I think this is way d20 and Storyteller are the most popular systems and hero is something of a niche game.

 

Which brings up a interesting question, Do you think there are more Hero gamers than GURPS gamers, as GURPS is the other major "universal" system?

 

Just wondering

 

The Hyborian.

[MitchellS]

Re: Crazy Idea to Remove the Math

 

A couple of years ago I played in an Abberant campaign (The White Wolf superhero system). I remember discussing the Hero system once with the GM, and he said something like "I tried it once, you needed sliderule to play". Honestly, I really didnt find Hero any more difficult,at least in gameplay,than the Storyteller System. But I think its quite correct that what freak people out is the fact that there are numbers over 20 and you have to be able to add fractions. I personally have always been of the opinion that anyone who cant add fractions, multiply and divide should go back to remedial junior high math. I mean, what good is taking the 25 point social limitation Gamer Geek if you dont spend at least a few of those points in Int. But, non the less, I think this is way d20 and Storyteller are the most popular systems and hero is something of a niche game.

 

Which brings up a interesting question, Do you think there are more Hero gamers than GURPS gamers, as GURPS is the other major "universal" system?

 

Just wondering

 

The Hyborian.

I think there were a lot of people who used to play GURPS for two reasons:

 

1- They have a vast assortment of sourcebooks.

 

2- For a very long time they were the only game company producing licensed products from various literary sources. Now Mongoose holds that title.

 

Because of those two things I believe there are far more GURPS players than Hero players but I believe that "universal" range of d20 has now cut into them as well.