Can you suffocate foes with an Entangle?

[Dragonblade]

So this might be a dumb question for you HERO experts, but it came up recently.

 

If I have an Entangle defined as encasing people in ice, what happens if you cover their head as well? Do I have the buy the suffocation as its own attack linked to the Entangle? If so, how would you build that?

 

Does the special effect of the Entangle simply allow an Ice powered hero to encase someone in ice and automatically do suffocation damage in addition to the Entangle effect?

[Kristopher]

Re: Can you suffocate foes with an Entangle?

 

I'd probably require it to be purchased as a linked power or two, if it was something the character was going to want to do every time he fired it off.

 

If it was a one-time deal, I might allow a Power-skill stunt to pull it off.

 

If a character had poor control, I might construct it as something he was trying to avoid doing, with a Requires Skill Roll Limitation and accidental suffocation if the Roll was failed.

[casualplayer]

Re: Can you suffocate foes with an Entangle?

 

There is the classic example of reasoning from special effects leading to trying to justify something for free. Special effects certainly can guide your development, or where you spend your points, but only isolated incidents should happen for free. Kristopher did a great job of explaining.

 

If you recall, in The Incredibles, Frozone fully encased the cop without choking off his air. Iceman's armor wouldn't work very well if he couldn't breathe through it (and it should make a horrible cracking racket as he moves, snapping and reforming, if you reason from effect.) Ice can be porous enough to breathe through.

 

I would suggest a supplimentary Multipower to go with your frosty blast. An NND EB representing suffocation, a Flash to represent snowball in the eye, Darkness to represent opaque ice covering the face, maybe some others. Then make Multiple Power Attacks to represent what you want to happen to your target. An Energy Blast + Flash is the snowball to the eyes, Entangle + NND EB is a smothering ice sheath.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can you suffocate foes with an Entangle?

 

I like the MP idea, but don't forget to make your NND continuous and uncontrolled or it switches off when you change MP slots.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can you suffocate foes with an Entangle?

 

Actually I reckon if you got a couple of mates to hold the sucker down, you could suffocate a target with entangle: hell if I can fill several hexes with glue, what's going to happen if I trigger the power with my whole fist in his mouth?

[Kristopher]

Re: Can you suffocate foes with an Entangle?

 

I'm suddenly reminded of a scene where a villain has his thumbs in Jamie Madrox's eyes, trying to drive them through and kill him, and Madrox finally punches the villain in his big, wide-open mouth.

 

Madrox's duplication power is activated by impact, remember...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Can you suffocate foes with an Entangle?

 

To trot out one of my favourite "what's missing from Hero" examples, there is no power which accurately reflects suffocation. An NND EB does far too much damage each phase, fails to take away END first and BOD if STUN is eliminated, and still allows the opponent to recover.

 

The best ideas I've heard so far are to allow a designer adder (say +10) for appropriate powers (Entangle and Force Wall being the main ones) and Suppress (2d6 standard effect) to suppress the ability to breathe in an oxygen environment (5 points life support).

[The Hyborian]

Re: Can you suffocate foes with an Entangle?

 

To trot out one of my favourite "what's missing from Hero" examples, there is no power which accurately reflects suffocation. An NND EB does far too much damage each phase, fails to take away END first and BOD if STUN is eliminated, and still allows the opponent to recover.

 

The best ideas I've heard so far are to allow a designer adder (say +10) for appropriate powers (Entangle and Force Wall being the main ones) and Suppress (2d6 standard effect) to suppress the ability to breathe in an oxygen environment (5 points life support).

 

I am with you on the first paragraph. This is a hard one to simulate. But the supress idea sounds suspicious to me. Its looks like a darn cheap way to by a fairly powerful attack. I would probably disallow it if a player brought it to me as a GM.

 

For the original poster: By definition an entange would not do dammage. If you want one that does dammage you have to buy an attack power of some kind and used the Linked disadavantage on it. Exactly how is darn tough, however. To simulate suffocation you would have to gradually knock the person out, then start doing Body damage, but the effects should be healed pretty quickly if the person starts to get some air again.

 

How about this: a small Uncontrolled Continuous NND energy blast, Defense is having life support or breaking out of the entange, Perhaps a short duration Gradual Effect limitation would be necessary as well to represent having a target pass out after a minute or two. Does Body - normally a (+1) advantagne - How about does body only after stun has been depleted (+1/2). That way the target looses stun first and after passing out starts to loose body. No serious damage if the target breaks out fast, but potentially fatal to someone who cant get out of the ice.

 

SO: 1d6EB, Uncontrolled, (+1/2) Continous (+1) NND (+1) Does Body after stun is depleted (+1/2) Gradual Effect 1 Turn (-1/4) Linked (-1/2) 20 Active points, 11 real points. This will knock a normal out in a minute or two depending on how tough they are start to kill them once they pass out. Supers could conceivably last a long time under this power, buy hey, superheroes rarely suffocate, even after being frozen in an iceburg since WWII in the North Atlantic. I would say it roughly approximates suffocation, at least on normals.

 

EXECPT, as i think about it, it doesn't solve the recovery problem. A super (heck, a tough normal) would almost certianly be recovering this dammage faster than they were taking it, making all of the above math a moot point.

 

Bugger.

 

And anther fatal flaw to my plan just hit me. If its a Gradual Effect, 1 turn, does that mean that the power only works once per turn, or that the attack that is made each phase and it takes a whole turn for the dammage to soak in? i.e. if the attack has a speed of five, would it attack five times per turn, and the dammage of each attack would "register" a turn later. If the second is the case then it does way more dammage than I though it would in the first place.

 

Double bugger.

 

You see what I mean about this being a hard one.

 

Maybe some kind of drain effects would be the way to go.

 

This is making my head hurt. I will think about this and try to post again at a later time.

 

Happy confusion,

 

The Hyborian

[Dragonblade]

Re: Can you suffocate foes with an Entangle?

 

Whew! It seems like it wasn't a dumb question after all! I figured I was just missing something obvious, but I guess I wasn't.

 

Should I post this question in the rules question forum?

[Dragonblade]

Re: Can you suffocate foes with an Entangle?

 

I posted the question for Steve in the rules forum.

[Constantine]

Re: Can you suffocate foes with an Entangle?

 

I'm just getting back into Hero after having been away for a while, so, granted, some of my information could be dated, but here goes. I believe that you actually can't take a recovery if you are taking damage from a continuous attack. Which would fix the problem mentioned above. Also, I believe gradual effect would spread the damge out, no wait until a turn had passed, which would be extra time...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can you suffocate foes with an Entangle?

 

You can take PS12 recoveries normally if you are, for example, standing in a fire, but not if you are suffocating (although if you were standing in a fire you probably would be suffocating anyway....)

[The Hyborian]

Re: Can you suffocate foes with an Entangle?

 

Steve posted over in the rules forum that there is a suffocation power is the USPD (Ultimate Super Powers something??????) If anyone has a copy of whatever that stands for could you share the "official" version.

 

Thanks,

 

The Hyborian.

 

P.S. I posted in the rules forum about the gradual effect. According to Steve a continuous attack with gradual effect would start, take the gradual effect time to inflict its dammage, and then start again, so the version that I wrote up would work if the recovery issue was solved. Im still not quite sure how to do that part though, perhaps a Rec drain also linked, or changing the NND EB to a drain instead. I would love to see someone's suggestion for how to actually write up the power.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Can you suffocate foes with an Entangle?

 

You can take PS12 recoveries normally if you are' date=' for example, standing in a fire, but not if you are suffocating (although if you were standing in a fire you probably would be suffocating anyway....) [/quote']

If you're standing in a fire, suffocating would be the least of your worries!

[MitchellS]

Re: Can you suffocate foes with an Entangle?

 

I think the basic idea for most entangles is that they're porous enough for air to get through. So when Iceguy covers someone there's still enough air trapped under the ice to keep the victim from suffocating.

 

I somewhat agree with Hugh Neilson about the adder. I would allow someone to take a +10 point "air-tight" adder on entangle or a sealed force wall. I would then use the drowning rules to represent the character slowly running out of air within the entangle.

 

If you want a more official way of handing it you could link a 1" change environment [removes oxygen] to the entangle and then use the drowning rules as well. I've just gotten to the point where I'm starting to like adders more and more and see them as good alternatives to combined powers.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can you suffocate foes with an Entangle?

 

Spiderman often uses his entangle to blindfold and gag people, neutralise focii (handguns, especially) and so on over and above the basic web 'em up effect.

 

Power trick or seperate power?

[MikeyMitchell]

Re: Can you suffocate foes with an Entangle?

Spiderman often uses his entangle to blindfold and gag people' date=' neutralise focii (handguns, especially) and so on over and above the basic web 'em up effect.Power trick or seperate power?[/quote']I'd tend to treat them as separate powers, simply because he does it all the time. I've never been all that fond of the "power trick" skill; it's a cheap way of pulling a special power out of your hat in a critical situation, but then, because it's cheap, you can't use it more than a few times without paying the points. Seems artificial and cludgey to me.Blindfold = Flash (maybe NND)Gag = Suppress vs. Speech (only works against annoying newspaper editors) :)Neutralizing foci = Hmn. Probably just a Grab against the Focus.But those are just my random musings.

[MikeyMitchell]

Re: Can you suffocate foes with an Entangle?
I'm going to agree with Hugh. I think the suffocation power needs to be based on the rules for suffocation - holding one's breath. If you can hold your breath underwater for several turns without suffering ill effects, why should you suddenly start taking significant damage from what is essentially the same thing - lack of oxygen?The effect isn't that powerful, so the cost probably shouldn't be either. If the person has several turns to escape the Entangle - or be rescued - before starting to die, it's not likely to be tremendously useful in most combats anyway.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Can you suffocate foes with an Entangle?

 

 

Blindfold = Flash (maybe NND)

 

Naw - it can be ripped off by somone strong enough - it's an entangle blocks sight group with the limitation that it does not restrict mobility.

 

I bought that for a character a decade ago, inspired by that exact spidey-power.

[CBikle]

Re: Can you suffocate foes with an Entangle?

 

The only problem with the linked attack route is that there are rules-specific things that go with suffocation that are hard to explain within the rules (not being able to recover; eventually taking BODY once unconscious, etc.).

 

Might be easier to treat the whole thing as a +1/2 to +3/4 advantage on the Entangle.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can you suffocate foes with an Entangle?

 

Steve posted over in the rules forum that there is a suffocation power is the USPD (Ultimate Super Powers something??????) If anyone has a copy of whatever that stands for could you share the "official" version.

 

Thanks,

 

The Hyborian.

 

P.S. I posted in the rules forum about the gradual effect. According to Steve a continuous attack with gradual effect would start, take the gradual effect time to inflict its dammage, and then start again, so the version that I wrote up would work if the recovery issue was solved. Im still not quite sure how to do that part though, perhaps a Rec drain also linked, or changing the NND EB to a drain instead. I would love to see someone's suggestion for how to actually write up the power.

 

If you are meant to find it, you will, there are no signposts, just whispered rumours of this treaure....or you could follow this link!

 

http://www.herogames.com/USPD/airandwind.htm

 

Hey, Hugh! looks like there is a (semi) official way of doing it afterall!

[MitchellS]

Re: Can you suffocate foes with an Entangle?

 

If you are meant to find it, you will, there are no signposts, just whispered rumours of this treaure....or you could follow this link!

 

http://www.herogames.com/USPD/airandwind.htm

 

Hey, Hugh! looks like there is a (semi) official way of doing it afterall!

The change environment version is in the uspd. That's why I mentioned it in my post above.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Can you suffocate foes with an Entangle?

 

If you are meant to find it, you will, there are no signposts, just whispered rumours of this treaure....or you could follow this link!

 

http://www.herogames.com/USPD/airandwind.htm

 

Hey, Hugh! looks like there is a (semi) official way of doing it afterall!

 

Hmmm...and fairly cheap too if you remove the 8" radius and Link it to the entangle/force wall. I wonder if this will be in USPD II when that gets published.

[MitchellS]

Re: Can you suffocate foes with an Entangle?

 

Hmmm...and fairly cheap too if you remove the 8" radius and Link it to the entangle/force wall. I wonder if this will be in USPD II when that gets published.

The version from uspd is on page 15-16 and costs 12 points. Throw on a linked and it's even cheaper. That's why I'd just make it a 10 point adder to entangle and force walls.

[Blue]

Re: Can you suffocate foes with an Entangle?

 

You can suffocate foes with anything... as long as you pay for the effect

 

As a GM, I wouldn't give it away for free. Likewise, the villains would not get the suffocation effect for free.

 

Entangle, by default, is the "no damage" type of power, meant to simulate nets, adhesive, and yes, even ice. I'd rule that unless the character purchased a linked power for doing damage, the person inside the ice is considered "suspended" and suffers no additional damage.