Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

[Rick]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

Anybody try Desolid for this.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

Anybody try Desolid for this.

That still essentially falls victim to the same problems that a more traditional defense power like Armor would. What if the character is attacked by a power with Affects Desol at the (+1/2) level? Some type of levels to be used to react via Dodge, DFC or RWTP doesn't break down vs. that attack either.

 

Again, it is a matter of how detailed or realistic a game that the character is going to be used in.

 

HM

[Sean Waters]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

Anybody try Desolid for this.

 

Apparently not. Triggered instant desolid - I can see that working*, good thinking!

 

HyperMan, I wouldn't worry about DFC and Roll w/punch as they are not strictly dodge effects, but if you wanted to include them, what is wrong with 8 point 'all combat' levels?

 

*Of course you get ridiculour results if you can them be hit by effects desolid attacks, but hey....

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

HyperMan' date=' I wouldn't worry about DFC and Roll w/punch as they are not strictly dodge effects, but if you wanted to include them, ...[/quote'] NOT dodge effects?!

What would you call what Peter Parker did in the cafe scene where Doc Oc tosses a car through the front of the cafe?? (Spider-Man 2)

 

...what is wrong with 8 point 'all combat' levels?

8 point combat levels will work with Roll w/punch but Dive For Cover uses a DEX roll for resolution' date=' not OCV vs. DCV so it is not applicable. Overall Levels are first and foremost [u']Skill[/u] Levels that just happen to also be applicable to characteristic rolls.

 

HM

[Rick]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

Well, in the cases of effects desol, it's all about SFX, as a GM i'm willing to say in this case the effect Desol doesn't work, unless it's made to effect the super dodge itself. Also The Dodge wouldn't work against AOEs.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

NOT dodge effects?!

What would you call what Peter Parker did in the cafe scene where Doc Oc tosses a car through the front of the cafe??

 

He dove for cover, he didn't dodge: dodge doesn't work against AE attacks, like flying cars, hence the different mechanic in the game. You can lump 'em together that if cool, but it is not the same manoeuvre, and this power is about dodging. As built it prevents you from taking damage but doesn't allow you to move, so the 'rationalle' for it seems very weak. You could not possibly use this power to simulate what Spidey did in that scene, by any stretch of the imagination.

 

8 point combat levels will work with Roll w/punch but Dive For Cover uses a DEX roll for resolution' date=' not OCV vs. DCV so it is not applicable. Overall Levels are first and foremost [u']Skill[/u] Levels that just happen to also be applicable to characteristic rolls.

 

HM

 

DFC being a combat manoeuvre I'd have no problem letting you apply your 8 point levels to the DEX roll, but you are quite right, that is not Holy Writ, but I can't help it if the system is wrong.

 

Anyway, you are trying to swing a hefty limitation because it can only be used for defensive 'actions'*, and given that will probably make them as cheap or cheaper than 8 point combat levels, using them that way seems wrong.

 

 

*Like stealth? - the villain is coming, so I hide.....

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

Well' date=' in the cases of effects desol, it's all about SFX, as a GM i'm willing to say in this case the effect Desol doesn't work, unless it's made to effect the super dodge itself. Also The Dodge wouldn't work against AOEs.[/quote']

Well, since we are getting hung up on labels and such let's take a look back at the history of Danger Sense itself. The power is primarily based on Spider-Man's 'Spidey-Sense' with a small nod to Captain Mar-Vell's 'Cosmic Awareness'. Since Spider-Man's power has the majority of the combat examples of its use it is fair to say that his is the definitive or base example of the power.

 

Now if we also take a look at the phrase 'Dive For Cover' and 'Dodge' from a pure non-HERO perspective. It can be argued that both are just ways of describing the very same thing. HERO just happens to use the two differently to handle game differences between AOE and personal attacks. Not much differently than how the terms Armor Piercing and Penetrating are used. Does the military have seperate ordinance classifications for these? (I don't think so, but I could be wrong..)

 

Anyway, regarding Desol, the idea that a character is extremely good at getting out of the way of a personal attack but that skill/talent has no carryover vs an AOE attack has always seemed a bit strange. Again, this is a just a matter of taste regarding the level of realism being used of course.

 

HM

[Sean Waters]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

Let us not forget the character has danger sense, a power in its own right, which should be good, for example, for telling him when he needs to dive for cover or dodge, without tacking on any fancy powers at all.

 

If you know what is comin atcha you're going to be better off.

 

Had anyone realised, BTW, it only costs 5 points to make danger sense fully targetting. Sheesh.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

He dove for cover' date=' he didn't dodge: dodge doesn't work against AE attacks, like flying cars, hence the different mechanic in the game. You can lump 'em together that if cool, but it is not the same manoeuvre, and this power is about dodging. As built it prevents you from taking damage but doesn't allow you to move, so the 'rationalle' for it seems very weak. You could not possibly use this power to simulate what Spidey did in that scene, by any stretch of the imagination. [/quote'] So he would have to buy Danger Sense Dive For Cover too? That's rich!

 

 

 

DFC being a combat manoeuvre I'd have no problem letting you apply your 8 point levels to the DEX roll, but you are quite right, that is not Holy Writ, but I can't help it if the system is wrong.

Letting 8 point Combat Levels apply to Characteristic rolls makes them too close to the effectiveness of 10 point Overall Levels. Or are you saying that because combat is so dependent on DEX that Combat Levels should apply to DEX too? Why not 5 point Levels then?? Where do you draw the line if not at the very clear to understand place that HERO does?

 

 

Anyway, you are trying to swing a hefty limitation because it can only be used for defensive 'actions'*, and given that will probably make them as cheap or cheaper than 8 point combat levels, using them that way seems wrong.

My example limitation values were just estimates. Assuming that RSR via Danger Sense is (-1/2) and Only For Defensive Actions is also (-1/2) that leaves you with Overall Levels that cost the same as DCV Levels except they also apply to DFC and RWTP at the cost of RSR based on Danger Sense. That seems like a very fair trade for what it provides.

 

HM

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

Danger sense dodging is not a Hero power' date=' it is a power built [i']using [/i]Hero powers, and the name is wrong*: it does not simulate dodging, or it would work against, for example, entangles.

 

It simulates dodging just fine. Think of it as a last minute twist or roll that turns an accurate shot into a glancing one. It's easy to imagine why that wouldn't help much against an Entangle.

 

Danger Sense Roll-with-Punch might be a more accurate name, but it hardly rolls off the tongue.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

Because with OCV Levels, AoE attacks, dumb luck and a dozen other factors, a high DCV just isn't that reliable a defense. Spider-men and Nightcrawlers seem to go down a lot easier in Hero than they do in the comics.

 

Armor bought as a last-minute "roll-with-the punch" and tied to Dex or Danger Sense rolls helps Artful Dodgers last through a combat without compromising their concept.

 

...a good example of why playing 'established charcter clones' almost always leads to disappointment! Anyway, I've seen plenty of examples of both characters being tagged and going down, although, I admit, in the comics, the villain rarely comes over and administers a coup-de-grace.

 

If you are really worried about this and can get anyone to agree with you, just allow the 'roll with punch' manouvre to be used for any attack. Just not in my game. Bricks get to hit speedsters maybe 1 time in 6 and speedsters get to hit bricks 19 times out of 20 and get maybe 3 or 4 attacks for every 2 of the brick, assuming a 4 point difference in OCV/DCV. I find it difficult to have sympathy for a mechanic that renders that one hit practically ineffective. Having roll with punch as it is bad enough...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

It simulates dodging just fine. Think of it as a last minute twist or roll that turns an accurate shot into a glancing one. It's easy to imagine why that wouldn't help much against an Entangle.

 

Danger Sense Roll-with-Punch might be a more accurate name, but it hardly rolls off the tongue.

 

 

....well, not really - you might still get hit, but only by the edge of the entangle and it should be less effective - only one arm in the webbing, or whatever - and it would make no sense really if the mechanic you were 'dodging' was a ranged drain. A glancing blow 'logically' should also have a reduced effect - but the mechanic does not simulate this.

 

Danger sense tense is what it is.

 

If you want danger sense roll with punch then you build it with damage reduction not armour. Far more appropriate mechanic.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

So he would have to buy Danger Sense Dive For Cover too? That's rich!

 

Interesting use of your selective reading talent, there, buddy!

 

With reference to your own use of the 'Spidey dodging car thrown by Doc Oct with MJ in a tight embrace' example, and thinking it through, he just used his danger sense, then did a grab by. His DS (and massive DEX) allowed him to take an action before the attack landed. If this was an abort action he couldn't have got MJ.

 

Point: you do not need to build a new power to do this - Danger Sense does it fine already.

 

 

 

Letting 8 point Combat Levels apply to Characteristic rolls makes them too close to the effectiveness of 10 point Overall Levels. Or are you saying that because combat is so dependent on DEX that Combat Levels should apply to DEX too? Why not 5 point Levels then?? Where do you draw the line if not at the very clear to understand place that HERO does?

 

Tosh. How many characteristic rolls do you make for combat manoeuvres? Well there's dive for cover, and....erm....

 

 

My example limitation values were just estimates. Assuming that RSR via Danger Sense is (-1/2) and Only For Defensive Actions is also (-1/2) that leaves you with Overall Levels that cost the same as DCV Levels except they also apply to DFC and RWTP at the cost of RSR based on Danger Sense. That seems like a very fair trade for what it provides.

 

HM

 

Not worth arguing about this really, is it? My take is that I'd allow you to do it with 8 point levels, you say 10. I'm hardly going to lose any sleep if you want to pay more.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

....well' date=' not really - you might still get hit, but only by the edge of the entangle and it should be less effective - only one arm in the webbing, or whatever - [/quote']

 

Do you roll hit locations for Entangles? Regardless, most Entangles have an implied sticky/wrap around effect that could easily be described as Entangling someone hit by the edge, if the GM puts a modicum of effort into it. Most of the rest of the Entangles out there are defined as effecting a specific Hit Location anyway, so whether you were grazed or not doesn't much matter.

 

GM and player description of how special effects interact is vital to making Hero's flavor come through. If the GM and players care enough to make the effort, powers like Danger Sense Dodging work perfectly fine and can make the game more fun for everyone. If they don't care, well, why bother nitpicking?

 

and it would make no sense really if the mechanic you were 'dodging' was a ranged drain. A glancing blow 'logically' should also have a reduced effect - but the mechanic does not simulate this.

 

Disagree. Most examples of ranged drain SFX I can think off off-hand don't really care where they hit you. Frex, a tranq dart doesn't much mind if it hits you in the arm or the leg instead of the chest. You're still going to sleep right quick.

 

If you want danger sense roll with punch then you build it with damage reduction not armour. Far more appropriate mechanic.

 

Damage reduction is a metagame power. From a SFX standpoint it and Armor can freely substitute with few exceptions. I can't think of a good reason why Armor can't be used to simulate rolling, and the books appear to back me up.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

Interesting use of your selective reading talent, there, buddy!

 

With reference to your own use of the 'Spidey dodging car thrown by Doc Oct with MJ in a tight embrace' example, and thinking it through, he just used his danger sense, then did a grab by. His DS (and massive DEX) allowed him to take an action before the attack landed. If this was an abort action he couldn't have got MJ.

 

Point: you do not need to build a new power to do this - Danger Sense does it fine already.

This thread was originally about how to build the extra ability to take advantage of the warning that Danger Sense gives. NOT Danger Sense itself. Your answer above is essentially saying that in Spider-Man's case, just buy more DEX!? Whish is even less limited that my proposition for use of Overall Levels.

 

Tosh. How many characteristic rolls do you make for combat manoeuvres? Well there's dive for cover, and....erm....

 

Not worth arguing about this really, is it? My take is that I'd allow you to do it with 8 point levels, you say 10. I'm hardly going to lose any sleep if you want to pay more.

Perception rolls(INT) vs. Invisble opponents or while in Darkness.

Breakout Rolls (EGO) vs. Mind Control.

 

Admittedly there are few. But Allowing 8 pt. levels to apply to DEX based rolls suddenly makes a character with 2-3 of those levels a world class acrobat if he has that skill. Whereas by the book, he's 'just' better at combat. As you say, it's only a matter of 2 points. But in a low powered game that can be a lot. And in a high powered game where they have MORE points to play with I say make 'em spend the extra 2!

 

HM

[Sean Waters]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

Do you roll hit locations for Entangles? Regardless' date=' most Entangles have an implied sticky/wrap around effect that could easily be described as Entangling someone hit by the edge, if the GM puts a modicum of effort into it. Most of the rest of the Entangles out there are defined as effecting a specific Hit Location anyway, so whether you were grazed or not doesn't much matter.[/quote']

 

Nope I don't use hit location for entangles, nor anything else for that matter, as I mainly play Champions. The 'arm caught' example was a way of describing in non-game terms how an entangle could be less effective if you part dodged it. You can imply any mechanics you like, but what you are trying to do here is call 'armour' 'dodging'. It isn't.

 

GM and player description of how special effects interact is vital to making Hero's flavor come through. If the GM and players care enough to make the effort' date=' powers like Danger Sense Dodging work perfectly fine and can make the game more fun for everyone. If they don't care, well, why bother nitpicking? [/quote']

 

A fair point well made!

 

 

 

Disagree. Most examples of ranged drain SFX I can think off off-hand don't really care where they hit you. Frex, a tranq dart doesn't much mind if it hits you in the arm or the leg instead of the chest. You're still going to sleep right quick. [/quote}

 

..but if the tranq dart was a stun only EB, it would matter? Seems to make no sense to me....

 

 

 

Damage reduction is a metagame power. From a SFX standpoint it and Armor can freely substitute with few exceptions. I can't think of a good reason why Armor can't be used to simulate rolling' date=' and the books appear to back me up.[/quote]

 

Metagame power? Eh?

 

Damage reduction uses the same mechanic as roll with punch: reducing the damage by a proportion not a set amount, so it seems appropriate to me.

 

DR can effect all types of damaging power, including NNDs, stun and body drains and so on, so seems more appropriate as a dodge mechanic. Armour only works against normal and killing attacks, some NNDs depending on sfx and no type of drain at all.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

This thread was originally about how to build the extra ability to take advantage of the warning that Danger Sense gives. NOT Danger Sense itself. Your answer above is essentially saying that in Spider-Man's case' date=' just buy more DEX!? Whish is even less limited that my proposition for use of Overall Levels.[/quote']

 

The thread was originally about balance not 'how to', but has moved on a bit:

 

Howdy!

 

I was looking through the online USPD and spotted the Danger Sense Dodging and had a question about how it worked it game play. Is it a power that requires you to spend an action similar to dodge? OP

 

Here is the power in question:

 

Game Information: Armor (20 PD/20 ED), Hardened (+1/4) (75 Active Points); Requires A Danger Sense Roll (-1/2), Costs Endurance (-1/2), Instant (-1/2). Total cost: 30 points.

 

Game balance wise, would you allow this power for a character with a 7 SPD and 11 DCV?

 

What I'm saying about Spider Man is that he has Danger Sense and a lot of DEX anyway and doesn't need any other power to simulate what he does in the mentioned scene in the film. Danger Sense allows you to use DEX and levels to the maximum. My contention is that using activatable armour just doesn't simulate a dodge well. Balance wise it depends on the rest of the character and can not be assessed in isolation.

 

 

 

Perception rolls(INT) vs. Invisble opponents or while in Darkness.

Breakout Rolls (EGO) vs. Mind Control.

 

Admittedly there are few. But Allowing 8 pt. levels to apply to DEX based rolls suddenly makes a character with 2-3 of those levels a world class acrobat if he has that skill. Whereas by the book, he's 'just' better at combat. As you say, it's only a matter of 2 points. But in a low powered game that can be a lot. And in a high powered game where they have MORE points to play with I say make 'em spend the extra 2!

 

HM

 

Wouldn't allow it for the perception roll as that isn't, to my mind, a combat manoeuvre. That is just a skill/characteristic used in a combat situation, not one directly attached to a combat manoeuvre, attack or defence.

 

To be honest I hadn't thought of the breakout roll, so well spotted, but given that 8 pointers can be used with ego powers AND they are pretty rare as extra DEX often costs a similar amount or less (+3 x 8 point levels is 24 points, +9 DEX is 27 points or as little as 18 if you buy back the speed), I would probably allow them to be used for breakout rolls. Suddenly the mystery of Ogre's design becomes clear to me!

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

A fair point well made!

 

Thank you, sir.

 

 

Metagame power? Eh?

 

By that, I mean that Damage Reduction does the same thing Armor/Defenses do, at its basic level. It reduces damage. That we have one power that reduces damage by a percentage and other powers that reduces damage by a set amount isn't strictly necessary; Armor and Defenses would suffice to represent any of the SFX Damage Reduction can represent. The reason we have Damage Reduction is not to emulate powers that can't otherwise be emulated; it's there to game the system in a way that it can't otherwise be gamed.

 

That's not to say that I think DRed is bad or wrong; I use it now and then. But to say that it's better than Armor for an effect like rolling seems entirely subjective to me, because they do the same thing. Just in different ways.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

Thank you, sir.

 

 

 

 

By that, I mean that Damage Reduction does the same thing Armor/Defenses do, at its basic level. It reduces damage. That we have one power that reduces damage by a percentage and other powers that reduces damage by a set amount isn't strictly necessary; Armor and Defenses would suffice to represent any of the SFX Damage Reduction can represent. The reason we have Damage Reduction is not to emulate powers that can't otherwise be emulated; it's there to game the system in a way that it can't otherwise be gamed.

 

That's not to say that I think DRed is bad or wrong; I use it now and then. But to say that it's better than Armor for an effect like rolling seems entirely subjective to me, because they do the same thing. Just in different ways.

 

 

Ah: one of my favourite topics. You see I think Damage resistance is very different and distinct from other types of defence, first because it simulates the character that gets hit by a dozen bullets and fights on regardless (as opposed to a character that a dozen bullets bounce off), second because it applies to a broader range of effects (like NNDs, STUN and BODY drains and so on) and because, to my mind it is NOT a defence.

 

An odd contention, but bear with me...what it does is, in effect, multiply stun and/or body (and CON for stunning purposes) by a certain amount against certain sfx of damage.

 

Iron Shell has 40pd armour. Rubber Boy has 75% resistant physical DamRed.

 

Take a baseball bat to each one and the effects are very different. Iron Shell laughs, Rubber Boy say OW! but lasts much longer than expected.

 

Drop them both out of a plane a mile up, Iron Shell is unconscious, Rubber Boy is still full of bounce.

 

DR is perfect for a character like Wolverine who takes lots of damage but keeps coming, or for huge characters who are almost impossible to take down because of the amount of damage they can take.

 

In effect, if you have 50% physical DR and 20 CON, 15 Body and 50 stun you can take 30 Body and 100 stun from physical attacks and you are not stunned unless you take 40 in one hit, but it isn't really a protection at all: if you take 2 stun, 1 still gets through: you just don't feel it as much.

[Rick]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

Again it's special effect. If the SFX of the AOE is a hail of macine gun fire than yeah I can see the dodge working, if however it's a 8" cone of fire...no. That's a Dive for cover because you have to physically not be in the area, that's more of a teleportation on a trigger.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

OK, how about

 

Extra-Dimensional Movement (Single Dimension - world where attack misses), Invisible Power Effects - doesn't appear to leave this dimension (Fully Invisible; +1) (40 Active Points); Limited Power; Counts as an Attack action (ends phase), Cannot move (use DFC), Cannot remain in "safe dimension" (-1), Activation Roll - Danger Sense without the stupid -4 to the roll; 13- (-3/4), Restrainable - useless if restrained (-1/2)

 

That should neatly avoid any type of attack that can hit him, including Drains and Entangles. The GM rules from SFX that it's no good vs. mental attacks or any other construct you couldn't dodge. Costs 12cp, uses 4 END, can be aborted to (it's defensive). Doesn't seem abusive since it takes your phase - it's a super-dodge.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

Thinking some more about it, I'm not sure what happens if you fail your activation roll. The SFX is that you didn't detect it with your Danger Sense - why should you lose a phase?

 

Not perfect, but I could probably allow some unique Advantage ("don't lose phase if fail Activation roll; +1") if thinking on it further didn't show it to be broken.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

In our campaign we've had a couple variations of this power concept roll through, and in final design we've always used Damage Reduction, for the reasons The Real Lemming has already stated. It seems to fit the feel of the intended power better, and works well to increase the survivability of high DCV/low defence characters withut removing the inherent danger posed to them by bricks and nasty KA's.

 

and I have always had issues with RSR vs. activation (with level based on another roll) because of the situations lke this one where you get more effect for your points from the activation roll, while at the same time having a better chance of success.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

I think it probalby shouldn't work against area effects and some explosions.

 

If you put him in a spherical room with no cover and inpenetrable walls and it's flooded with a microsecond pulse of radiation, his 'dodge armor' ought not to work...

[Southern Cross]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

Also,if the character's been Grabbed or Entangled,the "dodging defense" won't work.So perhaps it ought to be bought with the "Restrainable" Limitation.