Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

'I'm moving so unpredictably that you don't know what hex I'm in.'

Which is another way of saying that Dodge and Dive For Cover are just to aspects of the same idea which I mention back on post 25 of this thread.

 

Regarding the later argument of 8 point vs. 10 point levels.

5E and 5ER both suggest that 5 point DCV levels might only be appropriate for HTH or Ranged combat but not both and that 8 point levels would be necessary.

 

HM

[Lupus]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

Which is another way of saying that Dodge and Dive For Cover are just to aspects of the same idea which I mention back on post 25 of this thread.

Yeah. I've long had a problem with aiming at a hex being DCV 3, regardless of how fast the person in that hex is moving. Just because the miniatures are static doesn't mean the characters are.

[The Hyborian]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

Yeah. I've long had a problem with aiming at a hex being DCV 3' date=' regardless of how fast the person in that hex is moving. Just because the miniatures are static doesn't mean the characters are.[/quote']

 

Look at it this way. The hero Captian Evasion can move so quickly opponents have trouble determining exaclty where he is standing. Its darn hard to shoot him with your blaster pistol. Game effect= High DCV.

 

Flamelord, in a fight with Captain Evasion, realizes that the hero is going to be very hard to hit with his flamejet, and switches to his fireball power. An area 20 meters across is filled with burning plasma, centerned on the middle of the general area where Captian Evasion is moving around. Unless Captain Evasion can see the attack coming and move out of the Area Effect (dive for cover) the power does dammage. Why? You can be as agile as agile gets, if your in the blast zone you are covered head to toe, front to back, in burning plasma. You cant dodge that.

 

Or maybe you can, but not with DCV based powers. What if Captain Evasion is a speedster character with a ton of running? He might take desolidification with some limitations to represent that when he is super-dodging he can zip out of the attack area just long enough for the attack to go off, and then zip back in. Because his all out defense super dodge mode takes all of his concnetration, he can not attack while he has it on. (Or if he has bought some really expensive advantages for his attack powers maybe he can) But he is so incredibly fast that he is essentially unhitable.

 

That I would let a character have with no problem. You cant damage me because I'm super fast is no more unreasonable than you cant damage me because physical effect pass through my body. BUT, as I have maintained before, DCV is not going to get you anywhere against Area Affect and Explosions.

 

The Hyborian

[The Hyborian]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

While im at it, I just had another idea how to simulate this. If you continue with the "I move so fast that you cant tell where I am" special effect you might buy change environment with the penalty to CV combat effect. Although the rules do say that "any ability to reduce a target's CV should be strictly contolled", I would allow a few points penalty to the target's OCV to reperesent that the character is a speedy blur. That way rather than depending on DCV to keep you out of the area affect you are lowering the enemie's abilty to target you properly. Its a fine point, I know, but still an important one to me. You would of course need some limitations to represent the exact effect, and remember that a missed area affect still goes off, it just is centered in another hex. Unless its a huge miss or a small area affect the character probably takes dammage anyway.

 

The Hyborian

[Dust Raven]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

'I'm moving so unpredictably that you don't know what hex I'm in.'

Sounds like a perception issue, not a dodge issue. This would cause the attacker to aim at the wrong hex, not miss the hex he's aiming at.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

While im at it, I just had another idea how to simulate this. If you continue with the "I move so fast that you cant tell where I am" special effect you might buy change environment with the penalty to CV combat effect. Although the rules do say that "any ability to reduce a target's CV should be strictly contolled", I would allow a few points penalty to the target's OCV to reperesent that the character is a speedy blur. That way rather than depending on DCV to keep you out of the area affect you are lowering the enemie's abilty to target you properly. Its a fine point, I know, but still an important one to me. You would of course need some limitations to represent the exact effect, and remember that a missed area affect still goes off, it just is centered in another hex. Unless its a huge miss or a small area affect the character probably takes dammage anyway.

 

The Hyborian

Instead of Change Enviromnent, I'd use Images with a 2" radius (well, 1 1/2") with a Set Effect and No Range. Basically, the character "appears" to be in any one of 7 hexes (in a circle). Any attacker wouldn't know which it actually is. This would only affect AE attacks though, the character would still get his DCV versus any normal attack (which should be very very high based on concept). An attacker can always make a PER Roll to determine exactly which hex he's actually in though.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

I REALLY like the Change Environment approach top this one... it seems to fit very well. I've used variations of the Images idea, but I've always built it as a form of active defence... basically, the speedster is having to move around , with momentary pauses to let his "image" resolve... works similar to the old Displacer beast from D&D.. If a non AoE attack is made, they have to roll Per to try and determine which one is the "real" target. Other wise, I usually have them roll the attack at 0 ocv to represent a chance at a lucky hit.

[Lupus]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

Sounds like a perception issue' date=' not a dodge issue. This would cause the attacker to aim at the wrong hex, not miss the hex he's aiming at.[/quote']

Sure, he aims at the wrong hex. Roll scatter - that's the hex he was aiming at all along.

[Lupus]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

Look at it this way. The hero Captian Evasion can move so quickly opponents have trouble determining exaclty where he is standing. Its darn hard to shoot him with your blaster pistol. Game effect= High DCV.

 

Flamelord, in a fight with Captain Evasion, realizes that the hero is going to be very hard to hit with his flamejet, and switches to his fireball power. An area 20 meters across is filled with burning plasma, centerned on the middle of the general area where Captian Evasion is moving around. Unless Captain Evasion can see the attack coming and move out of the Area Effect (dive for cover) the power does dammage. Why? You can be as agile as agile gets, if your in the blast zone you are covered head to toe, front to back, in burning plasma. You cant dodge that.

No, you can't dodge it... but the blast may or may not be at your feet, with or without DFC. Even worse is AoE: 1 hex.

 

I understand why the rules are in there - it's game balance. DCV isn't going to protect you against everything. But it still feels incredibly gamey to me.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

Sure' date=' he aims at the wrong hex. Roll scatter - that's the hex he was aiming at all along.[/quote']

That takes the decision making out of the players hand. If I'm aiming as hex A, I want to aim at hex A, not miss and be told by the GM or another player I was really aiming as hex B

[zornwil]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

That takes the decision making out of the players hand. If I'm aiming as hex A' date=' I want to aim at hex A, not miss and be told by the GM or another player I was [i']really[/i] aiming as hex B

That's why I like the idea of the character using Images or such if he wants it to work this way.

[The Hyborian]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

Instead of Change Enviromnent' date=' I'd use Images with a 2" radius (well, 1 1/2") with a Set Effect and No Range. Basically, the character "appears" to be in any one of 7 hexes (in a circle). Any attacker wouldn't know which it actually is. This would only affect AE attacks though, the character would still get his DCV versus any normal attack (which should be very very high based on concept). An attacker can always make a PER Roll to determine exactly which hex he's actually in though.[/quote']

 

That sounds viable as well. I initially used Change environment because it had the OCV penalty option built in. But I would certainly agree to this if a player brought it to me.

 

It seems to me that this would twart those 1 hex area affects attacks with little problem, but still wouldnt do that much against a larger area affect. The attacker would pick the approximate middle of the area that the character appears to be in and "drops the bomb". Its likely to cover all seven of the hexes that the character might be in. On the other hand, that may be what you want, an ability that lets you evade a smaller blast but doesn't let you evade the gigantic fireball. I know one hex area affect is often purchased as a substitute for the (+1/2) I Hit All The Time advantage.

 

The Hyborian

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

That takes the decision making out of the players hand. If I'm aiming as hex A' date=' I want to aim at hex A, not miss and be told by the GM or another player I was [i']really[/i] aiming as hex B

 

Fine. Roll scatter. That's the hex he was really in.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

Fine. Roll scatter. That's the hex he was really in.

If I understand you correctly, this take the decision away from the target. Sorry bob, he hit the hex you're standing in, so you are really standing over here instead. That's just as bad (and gives a character free movement).

 

It's better to just create an effect that tricks the attacker into aiming at a hex you aren't in. That can be done with Images.

[pinecone]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

Worlds best head fake:CE -4 OCV vs AE effects, Radius (real big) Limits:(suggested) RSR:Speed trix, self only(ish), active(won't work if restrained stunned, etc...)...sounds workable, and is not too weird for play...

[Old Man]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

Me either.

 

Adding AoE doesn't give Usable by Others for free. You can't "give" your DCV to a hex even if you do put AoE on it.

 

Why not? You can put Limitations and Advantages on 5pt DCV levels. Making it One Hex Area Effect makes it affect the hex you're standing in.

 

Let's say you have Joe Champion at DCV 6, he buys +3 DCV, Area Effect One Hex. So he personally has DCV 9, the Hex he is standing in is DCV 6. Admittedly, it works best for Distortion Fields (read, Eldar Holo Fields).

 

I suppose if you want to simulate the dodgey bit more, you could say something like One Hex Inaccurate (the oposite of One Hex Accurate). So those targetting the hero's hex would have a higher chance of missing the hero but still nailing everything else in the hex.

[The Hyborian]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

Why not? You can put Limitations and Advantages on 5pt DCV levels. Making it One Hex Area Effect makes it affect the hex you're standing in.

 

Let's say you have Joe Champion at DCV 6, he buys +3 DCV, Area Effect One Hex. So he personally has DCV 9, the Hex he is standing in is DCV 6. Admittedly, it works best for Distortion Fields (read, Eldar Holo Fields).

 

I suppose if you want to simulate the dodgey bit more, you could say something like One Hex Inaccurate (the oposite of One Hex Accurate). So those targetting the hero's hex would have a higher chance of missing the hero but still nailing everything else in the hex.

See my above rants for more details, but in short:

Area Affect can be applied to powers that target others. The power then affects all targets in the area of affect. DCV levels do not target others, the normally only affect you.

 

Usable By Others could be used to give DCV to someone standind near, (with the proper Fx as justification) BUT, the rules say that Usable by/on Others affects other CHARACTERS. A hex is not a character. It does not have a character sheet or stats, etc. IT DOES NOT HAVE A DCV. The DCV of a hex is just a standard for how hard it is to hit a location. And its not that hard to hit a barn door.

 

To make someone miss you with an area affect you have to do something to make them less accurate with the attack (like affecting their OCV with change environment) or making them shoot somewhere else (like with images, set effect "Im actually standing over there"). Even then the area affect still goes off, and unless its small (like a 1 hex area affect) you still might get wacked with the big badda-boom.

 

For some reason I never tire of saying this.

 

The Hyborian

[badger3k]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

See my above rants for more details, but in short:

Area Affect can be applied to powers that target others. The power then affects all targets in the area of affect. DCV levels do not target others, the normally only affect you.

 

Well, yes, unless you're the GM and say otherwise. If you are consistent within your campaign, that's all that matters. My reference to FH shows that it is an accepted option to use AoE to apply power affects to others. And to address that point...

 

Usable By Others could be used to give DCV to someone standind near, (with the proper Fx as justification) BUT, the rules say that Usable by/on Others affects other CHARACTERS. A hex is not a character. It does not have a character sheet or stats, etc. IT DOES NOT HAVE A DCV. The DCV of a hex is just a standard for how hard it is to hit a location. And its not that hard to hit a barn door.

 

If you want to argue, consider the table on page 247 in FRED ("Target a hex, must hit hex's DVC (3; 0 if adjacent)"). Or -

 

Fred, pg 248: "Area of Effect Attacks may be made at either a hex or at a target's normal DCV. Generally, it's easier to hit the hex the target is standing in, because the DCV of a hex is 3, or 0 if the hex is adjacent."

 

If, as you say, the DCV of a hex (which it doesn't have despite its inclusion in the book I have. Publishing error?) is just a standard of how hard it is to hit a location, then what is it for people? Isn't it a standard of how hard it is to hit somebody? If not, what is it?

 

To make someone miss you with an area affect you have to do something to make them less accurate with the attack (like affecting their OCV with change environment) or making them shoot somewhere else (like with images, set effect "Im actually standing over there"). Even then the area affect still goes off, and unless its small (like a 1 hex area affect) you still might get wacked with the big badda-boom.

 

For some reason I never tire of saying this.

 

The Hyborian

 

I agree that sfx would determine the rationale, but it's still just different ways of creating the same thing. Give one hex a boost to DCV, and multiple effects over large areas still occur (I would hope that you don't consider that a miss for a larger area of effect just completely avoids the target, which I don't).

 

If you can't wrap your head around the idea behind the usage, then don't allow it. If you can accept it, then use it. What's so hard about that?

[The Hyborian]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

If you want to argue, consider the table on page 247 in FRED ("Target a hex, must hit hex's DVC (3; 0 if adjacent)"). Or -

 

Fred, pg 248: "Area of Effect Attacks may be made at either a hex or at a target's normal DCV. Generally, it's easier to hit the hex the target is standing in, because the DCV of a hex is 3, or 0 if the hex is adjacent."

 

OK, I mean that a hex does not have a DCV the way that a character has a DCV. There is a standard DCV to hit a specific 2 meter wide area. But that is not the same thing as being a character. Can you use aid on a hex? Does it have a speed? Can you stun it? Can you effect it with an ego attack? Even if you use the phrase "Area Affect" in place of "Usable by others" (which i think would be more on target), there is still nothing to effect. The usable by others rules specifcally say that they let a character use the power. A hex is not a charcter. It doesn't start to dodge around and evade attacks. Its always a hex.

 

If, as you say, the DCV of a hex (which it doesn't have despite its inclusion in the book I have. Publishing error?) is just a standard of how hard it is to hit a location, then what is it for people? Isn't it a standard of how hard it is to hit somebody? If not, what is it?

 

For charcters DCV is a measure of ability to defend oneself. Unless you could give me a special effect where the 2 meter region of space I was targeting with my area affect was defending itself, by say moving around or blocking my attack, I dont think I buy the idea that the hex should have a higher DCV. It just sits their being a region of space for me to shoot at.

 

To make character A miss a hex character B has to do something to character A. That could be a number of things, from a dex drain to a change envrionment with a CV penalty, to images to make them aim at a false target, to a perception penalty through Darkness, or something on those lines. The hex remains just the hex. You have to do something to the shooter to make them less able to hit it.

 

Ok, so I can hear you thinking, "what if I'm playing Captian Euclid,and I warp space to make the hex harder to hit". Well, thats Change Environment, "Warp Space", with penalties to OCV, and the charcter with the power would be affected as well unless they bought the personal immunity advantage. You have changed the nature of space in the region to make attacks more difficult to target, but the hex is still DCV 3. I would think most of these types of powers would be through change environment, or in the case of the "speedster dodge", images to make targeting harder.

 

 

If you can't wrap your head around the idea behind the usage, then don't allow it. If you can accept it, then use it. What's so hard about that

 

Nothing is so hard about that, but I have yet to hear a Fx jusutification at would support giving a Hex higher DCV.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

hmmm...for the character who wants his hex to be hard to target, what about Darkness with IPE. You think you know what hex I'm in, but you don't really.

 

Just another oddball power to simulate an unusual effect. Images to disguise the hex you're in is still a better representation of "speedster afterimages", in my opinion, but a Darkness field could nicely simulate a distortion effect. Mind you, so could a CE that penalizes PER rolls to acquire a target.

[zornwil]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

hmmm...for the character who wants his hex to be hard to target, what about Darkness with IPE. You think you know what hex I'm in, but you don't really.

 

Just another oddball power to simulate an unusual effect. Images to disguise the hex you're in is still a better representation of "speedster afterimages", in my opinion, but a Darkness field could nicely simulate a distortion effect. Mind you, so could a CE that penalizes PER rolls to acquire a target.

Oooooh, I like Darkness with IPE, that's evil! I'll use that, thx Hugh!

[Dust Raven]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

I'm thinking Darkness wouldn't work too well. The logic becomes circular: I can't see the hex? Okay, I aim at the hex because I know exactly where it is. I know I can't see it, it's in Darkness, but it's obvious where it is.

 

In any case, here's some ideas I have for methods of making yourself harder to hit with an AE attack:

 

Afterimages II: Sight and Hearing Groups and Radar Images Increased Size (8" radius; +3/4), -5 to PER Rolls (61 Active Points); Limited Range (character must be withing the effects area; -1/4). Total Cost: 49

The character moves so fast that it's difficult for others to know exactly where he's standing.

 

Spatial Warping: Missile Deflection (Any Ranged Attack), AE (hex; +1/2), Adjacent Hex (+1/2),

Persistent (+1/2). Total Cost: 50

The character generates a field that warps the space around him, causing attacks to be deflected harmlessly away. Even Area Effect attacks are pushed to the side (for game purposes, they still go off if deflected, but originate in an adjacent hex determined randomly).

 

Probability Anchor: Change Environment 64" radius, -6 OCV (60 Active Points); Only Versus Attack Targeting Character Or Character's Hex (-1/2), No Range (-1/2). Total Cost: 30

The character alters the probability of being successfully target by any attack (ranged or HTH). Should a character attempt an attack, he'll find his aim impossibly off, often striking far from his intended target.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

Probability Anchor: Change Environment 64" radius, -6 OCV (60 Active Points); Only Versus Attack Targeting Character Or Character's Hex (-1/2), No Range (-1/2). Total Cost: 30

The character alters the probability of being successfully target by any attack (ranged or HTH). Should a character attempt an attack, he'll find his aim impossibly off, often striking far from his intended target.

I really like this one.

 

HM

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

If I understand you correctly, this take the decision away from the target. Sorry bob, he hit the hex you're standing in, so you are really standing over here instead. That's just as bad (and gives a character free movement).

 

It's better to just create an effect that tricks the attacker into aiming at a hex you aren't in. That can be done with Images.

 

No, it really isn't. See, there is no deception involved. You're simply too fast to be hit. Short of amazing luck, reflexes and/or a HUGE AE, it should not be possible to tag someone moving fast enough.

 

Scatter them along their planned movement path. Have them either not have arrived yet (it landed 'during' your last movement) (and remember, the AE guy WAS aiming at wher you're going), or have them gone past (subtract the moved inches from their next movement, perhaps?)

[zornwil]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

No, it really isn't. See, there is no deception involved. You're simply too fast to be hit. Short of amazing luck, reflexes and/or a HUGE AE, it should not be possible to tag someone moving fast enough.

 

Scatter them along their planned movement path. Have them either not have arrived yet (it landed 'during' your last movement) (and remember, the AE guy WAS aiming at wher you're going), or have them gone past (subtract the moved inches from their next movement, perhaps?)

I understand the logic and I'm not saying it's "unacceptable" but it suonds like an absolute defense capability harder to defeat than Desol, although not so if you add a qualifier that the Environemnt is defeated by Force Walls or other barriers, in which case it could work - my main question then would be what is the cost as compared to Desol? I would think it should be similar.