Which are the optional bits?

[DrFaust]

So I just bought 5ER. I'd read through 5th before, but this is my very own copy, to read and annotate. And I'm trying to figure out which are the optional bits.

 

I mean, f'rex, how crucial are turn modes? I could very easily just say, "Okay, everyone maneuvers equally well, regardless of their velocity." That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Which are the optional bits?

 

Well, look at it this way: without turn mode, there's no reason not to buy Flight over Running.

[DrFaust]

Re: Which are the optional bits?

 

Aside from the part where you can't run up buildings or over chasms or things like that?

 

Are you suggesting there's nothing in the HERO ruleset that could be removed or streamlined for speed of play?

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Which are the optional bits?

 

It would depend on what kind of game you're looking for. Some things I would consider more important to keep for a superhero game, whereas others are more important for a space explorer game.

 

I would keep turn mode for supers, and for any game that involved a lot of vehicular action. You could probably throw it out for fantasy, if you wanted, without too much trouble.

[Herolover]

Re: Which are the optional bits?

 

I understand what your are saying, but this is something you will have to just play around with and learn what you are comfortable with.

 

I leave most, if not all, character construction as is and just play around with the combat mechanics.

 

As for turn mode...yeah I know there is a rule for it, but unless it is really important I just ignore it.

[DrFaust]

Re: Which are the optional bits?

 

I leave most, if not all, character construction as is and just play around with the combat mechanics.

 

As for turn mode...yeah I know there is a rule for it, but unless it is really important I just ignore it.

 

This I like to hear.

 

What sort of things have you done to streamline combat?

[Eosin]

Re: Which are the optional bits?

 

IMO Turn Modes are extremely important with Speedsters & Flying Speedsters otherwise it is largely ignored. Afterall, it really sucks when you take cover and Northstar pulls three turns of 90 degrees in 3 hexes to hit you with a full powered move through.

 

Optional bits are entirely dependant on genre and campaign tone - figure out those and it is much easier to figure out which optional bits might be relevant and which can be casually ignored.

[nexus]

Re: Which are the optional bits?

 

Aside from the part where you can't run up buildings or over chasms or things like that?

 

Are you suggesting there's nothing in the HERO ruleset that could be removed or streamlined for speed of play?

 

I think you misunderstood. Without Turn Mode, there is no reason to buy Running instead of Flight, not the other way around. Flight gives you everything that Running does, but less manuveribility but more options.

 

If I were to remove Turn Mode, I would make Running cheaper, 1 inch for 1 point since it would be essentially Flight with a Limitation at that point.

 

Edit: On a certain level, everything in Hero is optional accept for the core mechanics (like any game really), but you should consider the impact of changing something since altering costs might be required to maintain the game's consistency.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Which are the optional bits?

 

This I like to hear.

 

What sort of things have you done to streamline combat?

 

 

Try checking the 5ER Index for "Nine Ways To Speed Up Combat." Just the sort of tips you're looking for.

 

Here's a discussion-board thread with more suggestions:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14749

[KA.]

Re: Which are the optional bits?

 

DrFaust,

You may want to consider picking up a copy of Sidekick if you don't already have it.

The .pdf is only $7, and it is basically exactly what you are looking for without doing all the work yourself.

I think it would be easier to start with Sidekick and add on things from 5ER as you needed them, than to try to pare off parts of 5ER.

Having started way back in the stone age (1982!) that is pretty much what I have done.

Back then the rules were about the size of Sidekick, though not exactly the same, and extra rules were added over time to cover things that were unclear, hadn't come up yet, or weren't needed until a certain genre was explored.

5ER is everything, all put together in one place.

Which is great, because it means that the rules aren't scattered among three or four books.

But it also means that there is a lot of stuff in there, and you might not need, or want, it all.

 

If you already own Sidekick, nevermind.

 

KA.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Which are the optional bits?

 

DrFaust

 

Steve Long has pitched 5th edition as a toolkit. As such I think that everything is optional. Pick and choose what you want to use and play the game you want to play.

 

The main caveat must be that HERO has probably been designed for balance more than any other system out there. You have to be careful that the changes you make don't unduly unbalance the system. As Nexus pointed out, dropping turn mode has the potentially unexpected impact of changing the value of running relative to flight.

 

Changing things gets easier as you get more experience. HERO is a tinkerers dream - have a blast.

 

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Which are the optional bits?

 

I wouldn't sweat turn modes too much: unless someone starts doing stuff you feel is abusive you probably don't need to look up the rule even. Hero has an excellent index thugh, so no biggie.

 

Whatis important? Well, after character creation you need the speed chart, how to roll skills and hitting in combat and how to apply damage. Everything else is optional, including most of the basic combat manoeuvres if you really want to pare it back...

[DrFaust]

Re: Which are the optional bits?

 

For the record, the turn mode comment was just a for-instance. I don't (yet) actually have anything against that rule, aside from it seems time-consuming.

 

And man, what about adjustment powers? Seems like you'd have to calculate individually how each separate power fades or returns.

 

I'm really starting to think about picking up Sidekick. I don't want to because hey, I just dropped forty-plus bucks on 5ER and my bandwidth blows, so the PDF is right out. If it really is that much easier to use Sidekick and swipe from 5ER as needed, I may bite the bullet.

 

Liaden, thanks for the links and references. I'll check those out.

 

Without Turn Mode' date=' there is no reason to buy Running instead of Flight, not the other way around.[/quote']

 

Except that a player's character concept might call for someone who can run, but not fly.

[simplygnome]

Re: Which are the optional bits?

 

AND the fact that you take extra KB from flight....

[nexus]

Re: Which are the optional bits?

 

Except that a player's character concept might call for someone who can run, but not fly.

 

True, but I was clarifying what I thought was a misunderstanding. And it wouldn't be totally fair to the player who did have a concept of "Run not fly" that he's paying the same cost as the flyer for less effect. Some players that would annoy, others it wouldn't. Think of it this way. You get a cost break for limiting a power. With the advantage of no Turn Mode, Running is inferior to Flight in just about every way. By the spirit of the rules, I think it should thus be somewhat cheaper (Or Flight more expensive) or you might find people are coming up with more Flying Speedsters than Flash type speedsters. Points do effect character choices much of the time. Of course its just a suggestion and doesn't apply to all players. I've seen people take "Limitations' in games where they have no effect what so ever just for character concept, but that has been fairly rare in my experience.

 

Edit: If it works better, make my statement "There's little reason to get Flight intead of Running."

[nexus]

Re: Which are the optional bits?

 

AND the fact that you take extra KB from flight....

 

There is that but its (IME) a relatively minor effect. I don't think it would be worth keeping both the powers of equal cost if you dropped Turn Mode.

 

You can also use Flight for Extra Strength in some limited situations. I don't -think- you can use Running for that but I'm not sure.

 

But YMMV. I'm not saying don't drop Turn Mode, just be sure you consider all the ramifications when change something.

[KA.]

Re: Which are the optional bits?

 

I'm really starting to think about picking up Sidekick. I don't want to because hey, I just dropped forty-plus bucks on 5ER and my bandwidth blows, so the PDF is right out. If it really is that much easier to use Sidekick and swipe from 5ER as needed, I may bite the bullet.

 

DrFaust,

It depends on your situation, but if you are the first person in your group to learn Hero, and you are likely to end up teaching it to newcomers, then it would definitely be worthwhile to pick up a copy of Sidekick.

Even if you are just teaching yourself, it is a very good product.

Hero is really not that complicated, it just has the ability to model nearly anything.

But trying to get down the basics while faced with the details of every possible thing you can do can be a bit daunting.

That is what Sidekick is all about.

Giving a newcomer a chance to absorb the basic rules in a digestible format.

You won't have to re-learn a bunch of things when you start branching into 5thEd, you will just be learning the system in a more natural way.

 

Once you get the basics down, you will start creating characters.

At some point, you will say "I really want to have this character do 'X', how would I do that?"

 

Then you can either browse through 5thEd, or ask here on the boards, and someone will say: "Oh, you can do that with Transform" or "That sounds like a Variable Power Pool", and you will have the full rules right there in 5th Ed.

 

KA.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Which are the optional bits?

 

And don't forget, if you find you don't need Sidekick anymore you can always give (or sell) your copy to a player when you're ready to run a game.

 

As for Adjustment Powers, no question that they can be one of the more complex Power categories to run. One approach that can help with that is to use the optional Standard Effect rule to make every die of an Adjustment Power do a set amount of effect rather than roll for it randomly. That makes it much easier to keep track of how much things are increased or decreased.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Which are the optional bits?

 

So I just bought 5ER. I'd read through 5th before, but this is my very own copy, to read and annotate. And I'm trying to figure out which are the optional bits.

 

I mean, f'rex, how crucial are turn modes? I could very easily just say, "Okay, everyone maneuvers equally well, regardless of their velocity." That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

 

About the only time turn modes come into play for me is comparing a Running character to a Flying Character. I don't "war game" my Hero... so no hex maps and measuring... so I just hand wave turn modes to indicate that a Runner can make direction changes a LOT more "on a dime" than a flyer. Turn modes really only come into play in the few instances of two characters racing or chasing through obstacles like a downtown area or crowded shopping mall.

 

There is actually a lot of crunchy bits that I hand wave or abstract in my Hero games (primarily Supers) but this is reall a question of play style and not at all right or wrong. If someone is flying in tight quarters I simply warn them in general something like "If you fly full out, you are likely to hit walls. If you are being cautious the you are flying at no more than 8" a phase (or whatever.)

 

For streamlining play... there are other suggestions... like how I ditched the Speed Chart for an initiative system many years ago. People on the boards are split on mods and house rules they like or dislike... but do a search for Speed Chart and look at some of the options out there. One might catch your fancy.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Which are the optional bits?

 

 

And man, what about adjustment powers? Seems like you'd have to calculate individually how each separate power fades or returns.

 

 

Adjustment powers are an area where Hero falls down. In the desire to be a "balanced system" these powers are very, VERY cumbersome in game play because of all the nuance and minutia that try to balance them out. Unfortunate... but at the same time, if you compare how they are used in Hero to the main competition, Mutants & Masterminds, this is a great area of juxtaposition.

 

In M&M the drain/transfer effect is simple and elegant and easy to use... however many levels you have in the power, that's how many you drain from the other guy. Boom, done. Seems really neat and fluid... but when used in play you quickly find out that this power is HORRIBLY over-powerful compared to many others. It does just sick things for the same or less cost than other powers... and really screws up game balance. Suddenly you find yourself kind of pining for good ol' crunchy Hero .

[Sean Waters]

Re: Which are the optional bits?

 

Adjustment powers are reasonably complex and made more so by the recent ruling about individually tracking each adjustment.

 

One option is do not allow adjustment powers. I have dozens and dozens of characters without them, so no biggie, really.

 

In fact, if you have the time, I'd be inclined to create the players' characters for them for the first game, not even ask them for concepts, just hand 'em out. Do not be afraid to base charcters heavily on comic book charcters/steroetypes - The X Men, Fantastic Four, JLA and so on are all recognisable and will give the players ideas: don't, though, call them by their comic book names: players will expect too much of them, just do a homage.

 

Build your first scenario in a reasonably straightforward way: I don't know how experienced a GM you are, but it might be an idea to have a small team of villains rather than a large team of agents as your first opponents - less work for you in-game (having said that it is always nice to have some agents about so the PCs can get some idea just how powerful they are when the heavily armed villain SWAT team goes down like wheat...)

 

The point is that many games can involve half the rules, and you don't want to be looking stuff up all the time, so I'd control the variables as much as possible (as suggested above) and I'd wing anything that comes up rather than looking up the official version - so long as your players know that is what you are doing in the interests of game play, it should be fine.

 

After the game, look up anything you were not sure about and try and introduce that in the next session as the 'official' way. Most of the rules hang together off a straightforward framework, so once you get into it you probably won't be far off beam with your guesses.

 

Oh, and get Sidekick, obviously.

 

Finally, never be afraid to ask the board: there's almost always someone online and we love getting questions we actually do know the answer to!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Which are the optional bits?

 

GM SECRETS 101:

 

Hero is a great game, but character creation can take a while (probably no longer than a lot of other ganes, but nonetheless...) Here's one idea to speed up villain creation.

 

In the comic book medium, characters tend to be defined by their costume, catchphrase and powers, but no one is quite sure what the powers are. You can exploit this.

 

Champions used to have a villain called Pulsar in the published book. He was a bit of a joke, never considered very effective. I used him a couple of times and he was OK, but still the players did not take him seriously.

 

Anyway, I was stuck for a villain one day, so I took Pulsar, changed his costume to all black instead of day-glow orange and yellow, changed the name to Corruscator and had his EB project a black bolt of negative energy rather than a glowing bolt of positive energy. Check out the disadvantages to make sure they are still appropriate (and change them if not) and you are good to go.

 

The PCs thought he was a real menace. He was the same character they'd been poking fun at for months, in terms of character build, but with a new look and backstory. Took no time at all.

 

You can introduce some variation by adding, subtracting or changing a power (make one of the slots in the MultiPower an entangle rather than an armour piercing energy blast, for instance). You can even use the player's own characters with appropriate costume changes against them. NEVER LET ON YOU DO THIS, or the bubble will burst, but with a little imagination and a minimum of work you can build a core of 10 or so villains that you can recycle forever; just go for arechetypes: energy projector, brick, flier, mentalist, teleporter, giant, midget, martial artist, speedster, shapechanger, gun wielder, gadgeteer....you are over 10 already.

[DrFaust]

Re: Which are the optional bits?

 

Edit: If it works better' date=' make my statement "There's little reason to get Flight intead of Running."[/quote']

 

I can understand where you're coming from. Since everything's costed differently in HERO based on perceived effectiveness, I can see why it'd be worth reconsidering the cost of Running in a game without turn modes.

 

Personally, I'm coming from having had Mutants & Masterminds as my first effects-based game, where Running and Flight cost exactly the same because they each have their own pluses and minuses that are seen to cancel each other out, leaving the powers relatively equal.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Which are the optional bits?

 

I can understand where you're coming from. Since everything's costed differently in HERO based on perceived effectiveness, I can see why it'd be worth reconsidering the cost of Running in a game without turn modes.

 

Personally, I'm coming from having had Mutants & Masterminds as my first effects-based game, where Running and Flight cost exactly the same because they each have their own pluses and minuses that are seen to cancel each other out, leaving the powers relatively equal.

 

Well that's why they copied Hero : flight lets you take to the air, stop falling and such like, but you can't do corners very efficiently and you take more knockback if you are hit. Running lets you do the corners, which is incredibly useful for some combat situations, moving quickly through an underground base with lots of narrow corridors and so on: there are plusses and minuses, although, if you want to pay more or less, you can pick and chose which ones apply.

 

...anyway, by and large everything is costed hte same in Hero: movement is 2 points for 1". The exceptions: swimming, gliding and swinging cost half the norm and are because there are built in limitations to those powers (requires a liquid environment, reduced directional control and acceleration by falling and requires a awingline and suitable high places to attach it respectively). Otherwise the advantages and limitations of each mode (running, flight, teleport) balance out nicely allowing for a coherent and consistent cost structure). I really ought to get a job with these guys....

[DrFaust]

Re: Which are the optional bits?

 

Knockback, for the record, is right out. I couldn't stand calculating it in M&M, never mind HERO.