Points or $

[Fenixcrest]

Re: Points or $

 

No' date=' WF isnt expensive. But having just WF and trying to melee bad guys who are designed to be in melee with people who have WF AND several levels AND a high physical stats generally doesnt get you far. Allowing your Sword Swinging Wizard (SSW) to buy spells that enhance his effectiveness with a sword is an iffy proposition too, because if his enhanced state approaches or exceeds the non-enhanced effectiveness of the warriors in melee, then the warriors are going to be unhappy.[/quote']

 

I might submit that, in most cases, a full-time wizard, as it were, would not be caught dead adventuring. An adventuring caster would probably either be proficient in weapons-use, or would outfit himself with spells almost exclusively designed to ensure his survival; for example, he would favor Fireball over Wilderbor's Wonderous Weedkilller. Less versatility, but probably makes more sense. I'm probably drifting off-topic, though.

 

I dunno, let me just say that, yes, a warrior gets weapons, physical HKAs and RKAs, without paying points for them. However, the wizard who paid points for his spells gets to use Drain, Aid, various Explosive things, and the like, not to mention energy, given that ED is often lower than PD.

[Outsider]

Re: Points or $

 

I counter-submit that, in most cases, the wizards that players will be running as characters will be the rarer 'adventuring' sort, so those wizard's issues, while perhaps less common in the game world than a 'full-time' wizard's ones, are actually a good deal more relevant to the players and the GM.

 

And I completely agree that a caster who spends his points on straight Physical Killing Attacks is wasting them. Non-KA base powers and/or power advantages not available on bought weapons are what make the caster more than just a second rate warrior who had to pay character points for his weapons and armor.

 

PS. Characters may not buy up their ED, but their (free) armor has equal quantities of ED and PD, so, unless the norm in one's campaign is that people buy their PD up a great deal, the "ED Attack" advantage isnt that large.

[Rick]

Re: Points or $

 

Holy cow!!! In 4th edition didn't armor only give rPD. I just read the fantasy hero section on armor and I'm suprised. I've a hard time seeing Plate mail protecting you from Fire, cold or (HA!!!) Electricity...but hey this is why we house rule things.....

 

By the rules armor gives you Def not just rPD.

 

It does mention in the first paragragh that in more realistic campaigns armor maybe should only provide 1/2 Def verses energy, and I'm all for removing it altogether in my games, but that's my sandbox, not everyone else's.

[Black Rose]

Re: Points or $

 

Now, see, this is exactly what I'm referring to. It just makes since to me. My only issue is how to explain this "functionality" in terms that make sense In-Game.

 

I'm essentially fishing for an elegant way to discourage a character from looting an orc for an extra-sword, or walking up to a blacksmith and comissioning a wood-axe, or...well, you get the gist.

 

Well, as far as discouraging PCs from toting around every weapon they've come across this week, consider that they do weigh an awful lot. And, depending on how you're running things, they really aren't worth the trouble.

 

Ex: "Let's see, eleven used bandit's axes.... I'll give you twenty silver lances for the lot, and that's cause I like you."

 

"Twenty?! Thren's Teeth, each one's worth eight!"

 

"Perhaps new, but these are used, and I have to make sure each one will hold up under use, not to mention storage... goodness, I must really like you to go through all this trouble."

 

Frankly, it's a waste of time to carry too many weapons around, at least ones you're not using yourself. And if they want to commission a new weapon, let 'em. It's a good way to cut down on their excess cash (if they have any).

 

My way of dealing with surplus gear is to do this: have a "generic" version of whatever they are going to buy (swords, tents, shirts, etc.). They can get this for cash, and it'll hold up about as well as the real thing (it's considered OAF and Independent as far as damage and loseability). Now, if you get a particularly nice version of something, you can pay for the extras (Nifty-Wifty Broadsword has an additional +1 OCV, a finely-crafted basket hilt that gives another +1 to Blocks, Disarms and Binds, and looks damned impressive (+1d6 to PRE attacks when used). Add up the bennies, and charge them for that (the base broadsword comes "free").

[Gunrunner]

Re: Points or $

 

Well' date=' as far as discouraging PCs from toting around every weapon they've come across [i']this[/i] week, consider that they do weigh an awful lot. And, depending on how you're running things, they really aren't worth the trouble.

 

I agree with this point. If players are doing something that wouldn't usually happen in real life, the best this to do is ask "Why don't people do this in real life?" and create a mechanism to use in your game that represents the answer to that question. In this case, giving long-term endurance penalties for carrying so much equipment would be an example of that "reality mechanism". There's nothing wrong with your characters wanting to replace their old equipment for something better and keeping their old equipment to sell; this would happen in real life. The problem is when your characters disregard the reality of how tiring it is to carry around hundreds of pounds of equipment!

 

In a Heroic game (let's say Fantasy) weapons and equipment are paid for with money. This being the non-spellcasters bread and butter they get to pump points into skills. So they "effectively" get their full points AND "free" weapons (free as far as character points are concerned).

 

Now, this is not true for the spell casters, who generally end up with low-level and/or few skills and have to "pay" for their gear (again referring to character points).

 

I must disagree with you on this. First off, there's nothing stopping a wizard from buying the same exact equipment that a fighter has. Both characters have the same access to the same equipment.

 

Second, both a wizard and fighter start off with the same amount of money and character points, so there is no inherent inequality here.

 

Third, wizards have a distinct advantage that fighters do not: Where as fighters have weapons that can be lost, damaged, and require maintenance, the wizards themselves are the weapon! Their weapons cannot conventionally be lost or damaged, nor do they rust or rot. Wizards are much more dangerous to imprison than fighers because you never know what they may have up their sleeves. As far as what you were saying about non-spellcasters being able to "pump points into skills", how is this different from wizards being able to pump points into spells and powers? Fighters have their strengths and weaknesses, as wizards have their own.

 

The problem with D&D where player characters frequently discard their old weapons/equipment for new, better equipment is IMO not caused by the fact that equipment is payed for with cash. The real cause of the problem is oversaturation of magical equipment and weapons in a campaign. As long as you avoid this, your players will hold on to their finely-crafted weapons and armour. Magical items IMO should be rare rewards that are made more significant and mysterious by their rarety. If you constantly present your players with better weapons and equipment than what they have, then of course they're going to be constantly changing out their gear. Can you blame them?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Points or $

 

Black rose pretty much summed up how I'm inclined to do things as well... with the addition that I'll occasionally allow player to spend XP (or even starting CP)

on a magic item if they can come up with a good reason in game for them to have it built for them (or have it in their character background). I see the point expenditure to be sufficently restrictive to allow it within reason. I have helped most of my players over the years "optimize" their magic using characters, as it can be rough for folk who mainly play Champions to wrap their heads around the degree of point manipulation needed to make straight point cost Fantasy Hero spells. With reduced campaign cost, talent based, skill based or VPP/MP based magic systems, the cost of spells drops enough that competnet combatant mages aren't really a problem. And I can find almost limitless ways to keep growing the abilities of non spell users with interesting talents and "superskill" style feats. Magic loot has never been a big part of my FH campaigns, and when magic treasure does pop up, its often quite odd. One game, for example, did revolve around gaining access to the "collection" of mystical artifacts a particular Jotun had hoarded. After a NASTY brawl with a 600 point frost giant, they deserved some good loot, so I stole a few ideas from an old AC article and included, amongst the prize, a set of items that were in effect one use artifats.... A rock that could raise a mountain, a twig that could make a bramble forest, and a flask that could pour a body of water. Very neat, uber high pointed items... and mostly worthless. Almost no combat application. Until, that is, when they were used at the climax of the campaign to allow the party mage and the elven archer type to hold of the Evil Overlords entire army by themselves. The main quest of the campaign was to seek a set of artifact level swords to beat the big bad. I made sure to write the swords up with WICKED side effects, related to their power... If the weilder wasn't divine, the swords would break down the weilders health.

How many other fantasy games have you been in where a player owns a godlike artifact sword... and leaves it hanging over the hearth in his hall when he goes "adventuring". He won't take the damn thing down unless a world threatening menance pops up. He saw what one of these swords did to his friend.

[Markdoc]

Re: Points or $

 

ok, so on another related topic...do you prefer using an items real (or active) points cost to translate into $ or a different pricing structure?

 

Following the difficulties inherent with a gadget pool, I would still like to have a less arbitrary method of dealing with prices.

 

Actually, points = money is the most arbitary price structure I can imagine: gosh, you can buy a feudal estate complete with servants, for the price of a long bow. What's with that?

 

I use a price list adapted for my game world from real life renaissance/medieval lists: there are a number of these linked off the FH boards.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Points or $

 

Holy cow!!! In 4th edition didn't armor only give rPD. I just read the fantasy hero section on armor and I'm suprised. I've a hard time seeing Plate mail protecting you from Fire' date=' cold or (HA!!!) Electricity.[/quote']

 

Actually, plate armour would be just about the best protection against electrical attacks imaginable. Electricity folows the path of least (electrical) resistance - a lightning bolt which hit a character's armour is going to ground through the metal. It will heat the metal up in the process, but an armoured person will have a decent amount of padding betwen him and the heat.

 

On an unarmoured person, on the other hand the electricity will ground through the person. In that case all the heating is internal, plus the massive electic jolt is likely to fry neurons and (especially) depolarise your heart muscles (this is what kills most people who are electrocuted).

 

Plate probably should not protect vs cold any better than heavy clothing, but would be better against fire - anything hot enough to heat metal to the point where it is damaging in a few seconds would strip flesh in an an instant and cause dryish cloth and leather to burst into flame.

 

cheers, Mark

[mayapuppies]

Re: Points or $

 

Actually' date=' points = money is the most arbitary price structure I can imagine: gosh, you can buy a feudal estate complete with servants, for the price of a long bow. What's with that? [/quote']

Hmm, yeah forgot about the whole estate thing...

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Points or $

 

Actually, plate armour would be just about the best protection against electrical attacks imaginable. Electricity folows the path of least (electrical) resistance - a lightning bolt which hit a character's armour is going to ground through the metal. It will heat the metal up in the process, but an armoured person will have a decent amount of padding betwen him and the heat.

 

On an unarmoured person, on the other hand the electricity will ground through the person. In that case all the heating is internal, plus the massive electic jolt is likely to fry neurons and (especially) depolarise your heart muscles (this is what kills most people who are electrocuted).

 

Plate probably should not protect vs cold any better than heavy clothing, but would be better against fire - anything hot enough to heat metal to the point where it is damaging in a few seconds would strip flesh in an an instant and cause dryish cloth and leather to burst into flame.

 

cheers, Mark

 

Threadjacker

BTW...most sets of plate armor, historically, don't have any connection to ground. metal boots suck unless you're mounted.

(I just got an image of Mr. burly fighter type lying on the ground with both feet blown off at the ankle after being hit in the chest wth a lightning bolt)

[Markdoc]

Re: Points or $

 

Threadjacker

BTW...most sets of plate armor, historically, don't have any connection to ground. metal boots suck unless you're mounted.

(I just got an image of Mr. burly fighter type lying on the ground with both feet blown off at the ankle after being hit in the chest wth a lightning bolt)

 

Well, metal sabots - intended for use mostly by mounted troops, but still on their feet while dismounted - were certainly worn in their thousands. Some of them have wooden or leather soles, but many of the real ones have metal soles. You can check them out in any decent museum.

 

I agree, however, that wearing them when walking any distance would suck (but then that's true of full plate as well). In the interests of "fantasy" I've ignored that last bit, but I've always imagined fighter types as wearing boots and three-quarter armour like heavy troopers from the early age of pike and shot or halbardiers from slightly earlier.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Points or $

 

Hmm' date=' yeah forgot about the whole estate thing...[/quote']

 

It's not just things like estates - a spear would cost the same as or more than a sword, while historically the exact opposite was true. Then you get into the whole debate about where do blacksmiths get the points to make things from and do you need to pay points for life support (reduced eating) if you get a meal and how many points is a pint of beer, etc, etc.

 

It's best simply to not go there.

 

cheers, Mark

[Phil]

Re: Points or $

 

Personally, I'd be inclined to use a range of the techniques espoused above.

 

Signature weapons are a nigh on necessity for most heroic fantasy games. How often do fictional heroes change equipment mid-story? Require every characters to buy their main weapon as a Focus, which they can build up as the campaign progresses with AP, penetrating, Ranged or other tricks. Allow them to pick up any other weapon, but after even a very short time, it wont be as effective.

 

VPP wealth pools are fine to reflect characters spending power without keeping track of individual GPs for fairly mundane but game-mechanical effective equipment.

 

And then do allow them to pick things up and use them, but consider real-world issues and fantasy economics. Would you buy a suit of used chainmail, replete with orcs guts and notched from multiple sword blows, knowing that there's not much of a market for chainmail among non-adventuring types anyway? Would you buy 3? Would you buy 20? Where would you store them - they're probably only any good as raw material. And that's assuming you dont have an issue with handling what are probably stolen goods. I've often wondered where computer RPG merchants seem to get their infinite cash-flow from - must be a very generous wizard-run bank somewhere in the Forgotten Realms!

[Markdoc]

Re: Points or $

 

Well, my approach is that *somebody* has to pay points to make magic or otherwise special stuff but such things are either charges (like potions - one shot items) or independant magical items.

 

If a player wants to make potions, he needs to pay the points. Likewise if they want to make or have a magic item of their own, he/she pays the points.

 

Found items are thus not a problem - for a start I give them out and for a second someone else has already provided the points.

 

This eliminates any problems with finding and using items, and in fact, 20 suits of used chainmail make good loot - if you can find an armourer, or a merchant who knows one. They can be refashioned/refurbished much more easily than making a suit from scratch. But no-one's going to pay full price or even close, and Bob the Chandler isn't going to buy one.

 

In such a situation, the players are not going to lug them any distance unless they are desperate for cash.

 

In general, a good deal of the loot in my game is given out in "stuff". A gang of bandits is much more likely to have a whole bunch of stuff they stole from passers-by than a chest with 200 gold pieces and two gems. It's up to the players to sort out what's valuable and what's not and find a buyer for it.

 

And most merchants in my game will take it for granted that anything they buy off a bunch of heavily armed, scarred strangers is stolen goods and will price it accordingly.

 

As a result players will actually spend points on social interaction skills and things like KS: appraise value or PS: Bargaining

 

Cheers, Mark

[Xiawarr]

Re: Points or $

 

I ran into a similar problem... Here is how I decided to solve it:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=306

 

It might suit your needs.

[AnotherSkip]

Re: Points or $

 

What about the dark champions rules for weapons?

 

example an AC limit on how much you can haul around IIRC.

[Markdoc]

Re: Points or $

 

What about the dark champions rules for weapons?

 

example an AC limit on how much you can haul around IIRC.

 

We discussed this in detail in an earlier thread, but the simple reason is that in most Fantasy games (unlike most Dark Champions games) there tends to be a number of unique items floating around. Also - unlike FH - most DC games are centered around a limited number of locales or feature an organisation that can supply gear at different places.

 

So it's no big deal if a player swaps out his AK47 so he has enough points to lug a rocket launcher for one adventure. He can always get aother AK from somewhere for next week's adventure. But in Fantasy, you get this kind of situation:

 

"Master Frodo, we've reached the Crack O' Doom, what did you do with the One ring?"

 

"Oh, that? Bilbo gave me a neato-keen mail shirt and a sword, so I didn't have enough points to carry it. I think I left it in his bedroom."

 

Basically, in DC games I can see the point of an points allowance to counter the obsessive hoarding of gadgets and equipment. It occasionally creates some odd reactions, but that's an acceptable price to pay for what can be a real problem.

 

In an FH game where most characters have armour and a few weapons, and magic items can't be acquired by a trip to the store, it's essentially a non-problem (how many PCs have you had who wanted to carry 12 swords? In DC, on the other hand, players want a sidearm (or two) and an assault rifle and a rocket launcher and a knife, and a flamethrower and nightvision goggles, and bugging equipment and binoculars and an armoured van and different types of special ammo and..... you get the point) and the oddness occasioned is often much greater. Basically, I can't see any reason to worry about points: it's only an issue normally with magic items, and the GM generally controls access to those or requires players to pay points for them. If you don't want your players toting around neato-keen magic swords they didn't pay points for.... then don't give them away.

 

cheers, Mark

[sbarron]

Re: Points or $

 

Basically, I can't see any reason to worry about points: it's only an issue normally with magic items, and the GM generally controls access to those or requires players to pay points for them. If you don't want your players toting around neato-keen magic swords they didn't pay points for.... then don't give them away.

 

cheers, Mark

I suppose if you wanted you could create magic item slots for each character. So, each character can have up to 60 AP in attacking magic tems (swords, wands, darts, etc), 40 AP in magic defenses (armor, bracers, rings, etc), and 80 AP in miscellaneous magic items (rings, broaches, hats, etc).

 

This would allow balance and enforce some level of restraint on the players. It would be similar to the equipment pool but allow a wider range of magic per character, while still keeping the number of magic weapons/suits of armor per character down to a "normal" level. I don't know that I would go this far. It's just an idea...

[Markdoc]

Re: Points or $

 

I suppose if you wanted you could create magic item slots for each character. So' date=' each character can have up to 60 AP in attacking magic tems (swords, wands, darts, etc), 40 AP in magic defenses (armor, bracers, rings, etc), and 80 AP in miscellaneous magic items (rings, broaches, hats, etc).[/quote']

 

No, it's the same kludge in a different shirt. You knock down Lord Evil the necromancer who's been wielding his devastating vorpal sword - but then leave it lying next to him because you can't use it - although you are a master swordsman - because your "magic weapon" slot is too small. Nani?

 

As noted, I simply can't see the problem - or more accurately the "solution" is far, far worse than the problem.

 

In Dark Champions, there is a problem in that a vast array of manufactured product are available that can grant different powers. Worse, many of them are relatively small, while vehicles are easy to come by, so you can't rely on simple encumbrance to stop players humping them around. Some way of balancing that out is needed, so Van Full o' Gear Guy doesn't overshadow Lone Biker Guy.

 

In an FH setting, you can get imaginative and get some minor powers, but the powers available for sale are essentially HKA/RKA and Armour. Everyone can carry and use those and I have never had a problem with players wanting to carry 6 different kinds of HKA (nor would there be a game balance issue if they did...) The problem is purely in terms of magic items - which are almost always provided by the GM. So there should be no problem. As noted - if you don't want your players to have magical weapons of more than 60 AP, then don't GIVE them magical weapons of more than 60 AP.

 

cheers, Mark

[Vondy]

Re: Points or $

 

I don't see it as being a problem. Spellcasters can also go to a store and put money on the barrelhead for mundane equipment. The only time a fantasy character should have to pay points for equipment is if its a signature item - meaning a focus that isn't "independent."

 

I inlcude item creation in that general theory. You can do a lot of things to make item creation challenging without charging points.

 

In my game I've been treating spells as individual skills with the caveat that spellcasters must improve them individually (no skill levels to enhance them en masse). Its not as cheap as it sounds. 15 spells at a straight INT-roll is 45 points, and poweful spells have hefty skill roll modifiers, so it pays to buy those skills up. I do allow PSLs, but they have to be purchased for each school of magical thought.

 

Using this system, I would simply make the technique for creating the item an individual skill, and then require the mage to come up with the cash for the materials, some of which might be exotic or dangerous to obtain.

[Curufea]

Re: Points or $

 

I also like the concept for magical item creation, of magical material requirements. And the materials contain the equivalent of XP, or character points - usuable for specific things. I can't remember what the original thread was where we were discussing this, but things like-

Phoenix Feather, 5 points towards fire-based magic

Diamond, 1 point towards time/duration advantages

etc..

 

And it's combinations that are consumed on the creation of the item.