Points or $

[mayapuppies]

Hello All,

 

Just reading through the threads to get caught back up (or at least seem like I have) and a question came to the forebrain that's been rolling around in my head for some time.

 

In a Heroic game (let's say Fantasy) weapons and equipment are paid for with money. This being the non-spellcasters bread and butter they get to pump points into skills. So they "effectively" get their full points AND "free" weapons (free as far as character points are concerned).

 

Now, this is not true for the spell casters, who generally end up with low-level and/or few skills and have to "pay" for their gear (again referring to character points).

 

Now, I got into the HERO system by way of Champions where everything costs points and this mentality has always colored my view of the game. Thus, the paying of money, rather than character points, for "powers" has never translated well with me.

 

I've always wanted a way to have Fantasy characters pay points for their gear, rather than money, but I've never found a way that could be explained in game.

 

Any thoughts on this?

[sbarron]

Re: Points or $

 

I've always wanted a way to have Fantasy characters pay points for their gear, rather than money, but I've never found a way that could be explained in game.

 

Any thoughts on this?

What's to explain? Use the same rational you use for supers. The truth is, only in D&D (ok, fantasy RPG, thanks to D&D) do charcters go around stockpiling weapons, changing weapons everytime they find one that's better, buy magic items at the local store, etc. That doesn't happen in the vast majority of fantasy stories. Quite the opposite actually.

 

I think it makes a lot of sense to have characters pay points for equipment. Equipment Pools seem to be all the rage these days too. I say have the characters pay for their equipment and see how it goes. If you allow the PCs to design their own signiture weapons and armor to start the game, they won't be concerned about collecting or stockpiling lesser items. This way, PCs can focus on upgrading their characters, rather than their magic items.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Points or $

 

Now, see, this is exactly what I'm referring to. It just makes since to me. My only issue is how to explain this "functionality" in terms that make sense In-Game.

 

I'm essentially fishing for an elegant way to discourage a character from looting an orc for an extra-sword, or walking up to a blacksmith and comissioning a wood-axe, or...well, you get the gist.

 

I had a similar problem with a player in a Champions campaign, who couldn't grasp the genre trope of not picking up the bad guys guns and blowing them to smithereens.

[Savinien]

Re: Points or $

 

Resource Points?

 

In some cases I've found money tallying a waste of time. But, without it, you run the risk of losing the Universal Motivator!

 

Cold. Hard. Cash.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Points or $

 

Well, there is that, but luckily, my gaming groups for the past 8 years or so never seem motivated by that.

[sbarron]

Re: Points or $

 

That's why I suggested the "signature equipment." If I were a PC, and I knew I had the exact sword that I wanted, the one that was the perfect fit for my character, both in combat and for the story, then I wouldn't worry about picking up extra weapons. I already have the perfect weapon for my character, so why would I need anything else?

 

While this wouldn't prevent a character from stockpiling, it would prevent them from getting any benefit from doing so. Also, since characters are paying points for their weapons, "magic" items won't work for anyone else. So while the Dread King's sword REALLY kicks ass while he's using it, it won't work like anything other than a regular sword for anyone else. You could make exceptions to this for special story purposes if you wanted. But the GM would be in control of that, not the players.

 

I realize this isn't perfect. Especially given that most gamers view the stockpiling of magic items to be the point of fantasy role-playing. Maybe we can figure out something better in this thread.

[Herolover]

Re: Points or $

 

Well under the new Fantasy Hero magic users can be given a cost multiplier on their spells that basically mean they are paying 1/3 of the cost of a spell. That is a good trade off and works fine.

 

Now to your real question. You seem to have decided that you are going to make players spend points on equipment for a fantasy campaign. That's cool. The question you have is how to basicly do it.

 

1) Take the character that is going to have the most equipment and figure out how many points they need. This way you know how many points to give out initially.

 

2) The way I explain it in champions is that the equipment a character purchases with points is "their standard equipment that they can pretty much alway count on having." It does not mean that they can't pick up the big bad ogre's sword and use it. It doe however, mean that after the adventure the big bad orgre's sword is given away, sold, etc unless the player wants to spend points to buy it.

 

You might want to look at how the RPGA does their living campaigns. It them you get equipment you buy and can use anything found in the game during the adventure, but after the adventure you go back to the equipment you have bought on your character sheet.

 

They explain that you always dont' get equipment because it is broke, used to pay expenses, etc.

 

Good luck

[mayapuppies]

Re: Points or $

 

Hmm, maybe a gadget pool?

[Rick]

Re: Points or $

 

This may not be exactly what you're talking about, but it has a great dicussion on magical weapons and whether or not they should/could cost points: http://herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28989

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Points or $

 

Why don't you just consider $ to be fractional Exp. Say 4-5 SP equals about One Character Point (figuring in the Independent Limitation weapons and stuff). Just cut way back on the number of experience points you reward each session, say something like 0-1 Pts per session. I allow the players vote on if someone should get a one bonus xp for great roleplaying or coming up with a great idea, etc. Otherwise, the bulk on ones experience comes in the form of money and the value of any acquired gear.

 

 

[Outsider]

Re: Points or $

 

Figure out about how many active points in mundane gear your non-casters will have, then allow your casters that many active points in extra spells/spell skills/magical (or mundane) equipment at the start of the campaign. Then make sure that the 'loot' that the players come across isnt all just stuff that will make the warriors tougher.

 

The players looting yet another goblin short sword, or commissioning yet another battle axe from the local smith doesnt bother me, unless those items actually improve the character's power.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Points or $

 

Ok, so how about an equipment VPP? The players can decide how many points they want in this pool. The pool can only be changed/replaced in a town and then only from items available, etc.

 

If they get something fancy-schmancy they can pay for it outright rather than having it in the pool.

 

Hmm, how many points is a backpack anyway...

[mayapuppies]

Re: Points or $

 

There has got to be a way to do this. I know my players won't fixate on the $, but I'm dying for an elegant method to handle this. It would simplify my life in a big way...particularly in world design and I'd be able to focus on a more "heroic" style of game rather than the traditional, bash down door, kill monster, take loot, scenario that a lot of games end up being.

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Points or $

 

No Equipment VVP

 

A Backpack is worth 5 SP (1 Character Point) FH Page 146

 

 

[Markdoc]

Re: Points or $

 

We've had this discussion before. I started my FH campaign using the "points for everything" approach and dropped it after a while. It simply gets too wierd, when players start throwing away perfectly good stuff because they "don't have points for it" - or even wierder, don't take useful equipment with them on long trips for the same reason ("gee, if I take an extra 20 arrows, I have to leave my armour behind - hey kid, want a suit of armour?".)

 

And as far as I can see, the argument FOR charging points - that fighters get all of this stuff for free and poor ol' magic-users don't - doesn't hold much water when you realise the GM has step in with careful game design to stop magic users trampling all over fighters in combat: witness the current thread on "how can fighters compete with magic users?".

 

It is perfectly possible to run a game where the accumulation of "stuff" is not an issue - I did a 2 year FH story arc where that happened. But it's easier (and infinately more rational) to do it as a GM, not build in a hokey game mechanism.

 

cheers, Mark

[Barton]

Re: Points or $

 

In my Champions game I do this:

If you buy something with $ it can and will malfunciton/not work/break at the GM's whim. I explain it as you can buy things but they will have R**** Shack quality. If you buy with experience points they will work when you want them to. It levels the playing field quite well.

For FH (I have never GMed FH, but I have GM for many years D&D) I would say special equipement should be points, regular equipment $. Remember all $ purchased equpiment should have Real Weapon and alike disads on them. Just my two cents and some say it worth less than that...

[mayapuppies]

Re: Points or $

 

ok, so on another related topic...do you prefer using an items real (or active) points cost to translate into $ or a different pricing structure?

 

Following the difficulties inherent with a gadget pool, I would still like to have a less arbitrary method of dealing with prices.

[Krim Haneth]

Re: Points or $

 

I have never had a character buy their equipment with experience points. Experience points IMHO are for character development like increasing skills ane .

 

They usually buy their stuff with money. If they bought it with experience points and lost it they would be out points, and that would bite. With a money purchase system, your heros can loose or have their equipment destroyed and they are not out a bunch of points. Case and point, one of my characters dipped her sword in a moat to see if it was ok to cross, and a water elemental came out and broke her sword in half.

 

With special equipment for example "The Firey Sword of Slaying" the player would have to come up with reasonable way to have it or have aquired it in the climax of an adventure I ran.

[Old Man]

Re: Points or $

 

 

Hmm, how many points is a backpack anyway...

 

That's what I was going to ask, but it is essentially +STR Only to Increase Carrying Capacity, OIF - Backpack.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Points or $

 

That's what I was going to ask' date=' but it is essentially +STR Only to Increase Carrying Capacity, OIF - Backpack.[/quote']

Ah, beautiful!

[Heroman]

Re: Points or $

 

Another approach is something a bit more half way.

Have characters pay points for "non standard" type type of equipment. "Non Standard" would be whatever the average joe has (maybe the average joe adventurer). That way you can ignore trivial things like backpacks, daggers, and the like. Maybe set an active point cost as a general guideline; If an item is more than 10 active points, then it must be bought with CPs. This would allow people to buy daggers, tents, etc with money, but for more impressive stuff (like great swords, etc) they would need to spend CPs.

 

As far as rational, when you are spending CPs for items, it requires the cooperation from the players. Their 'giving up the +2 Vorpal Bunny Slayer because no one wants to spend the points' is something they need to help with for the story.

[HewhoisMatt]

Re: Points or $

 

We've had this discussion before. I started my FH campaign using the "points for everything" approach and dropped it after a while. It simply gets too wierd' date=' when players start throwing away perfectly good stuff because they "don't have points for it" - or even wierder, don't take useful equipment with them on long trips for the same reason ("gee, if I take an extra 20 arrows, I have to leave my armour behind - hey kid, want a suit of armour?".)[/quote']

 

 

I really agree with this. The idea of paying points for Back packs, ropes, iron spikes, torches, arrows etc, etc, etc is just silly to me. It seems to me the best reason for heros to not pick up everything they see is ,who can carry that much crap. XP is for hero development skills, talents, attributes not buying daggers.

[Fenixcrest]

Re: Points or $

 

Well, how many spells does a caster honestly need? I usually handle that sort of thing with a multipower. If they want something with a bizarrely huge number of Active Points, they can just hard-buy it and throw on a Extra Time and Charges and stuff. I find that if your caster just has lots of Background skills and a few spells, they don't lose out on points too much. It just means they have more money for other things than weapons. Or they can have weapons, too. It's not as though WF is expensive.

[Rick]

Re: Points or $

 

Or if Mages and spell slingers are supposed to sling spells, make the spells very affordable.

 

My Spell system.

 

Every Caster in the realm of magic must have the Power skill Magic. They run their spells off of an end reserve and when that runs out they can use their personal at x2 the normal cost.

 

ALL magic spells require a spell skill roll, -1/10 ap to the spell roll.

 

All spells cost 1pt each, period, no matter how many active points in the spell. The balancing point is, if your character has managed to find and learn a 360 ap spell can he make his skill -36 and pay 36 end for it's casting.

 

Now suddenly mages are a lot more versital....and the warriors sword, levels and martial arts, and the mages spell book are on par.

 

P.S. there are other details to my system, for instance; some locals give bonuses to magic end reserves and negatives, As well as modifiers for skill rolls.

[Outsider]

Re: Points or $

 

Or they can have weapons' date=' too. It's not as though WF is expensive.[/quote']

 

No, WF isnt expensive. But having just WF and trying to melee bad guys who are designed to be in melee with people who have WF AND several levels AND a high physical stats generally doesnt get you far. Allowing your Sword Swinging Wizard (SSW) to buy spells that enhance his effectiveness with a sword is an iffy proposition too, because if his enhanced state approaches or exceeds the non-enhanced effectiveness of the warriors in melee, then the warriors are going to be unhappy.