DC-style Villians in an Avengers-style Campaign?

[Kevin Scrivner]

Mention of BLACK HARLEQUIN in another thread got me to thinking. Several times I've tried to introduce old-fashioned DC-style theme villains into my campaigns but they seem seriously underpowered compared to my players. I mean, the Joker is a martial artist with two or three poisonous gadgets. He's basically a normal and has no resistent defenses. The Penguin has his trick umbrellas, a small gadget pool in HERO System terms. Catwoman has slinky moves and a whip. The Riddler doesn't even have slinky moves; he's just a crime boss in a leotard who leaves clues behind. In the comics and on video they're the terror of Gotham City; the writers can contrive to make them a threat. The Joker has managed to challenge Superman and Wonder Woman as well as Batman.

 

In a Champions game, however, my Penguin-clone or Joker wannabe is up against the player-characters -- the equivalent of the Junior Justice League or Avengers Lite. The poison gas bombs that easily turn Gotham's Finest into grinning corpses are useless against the robotic brick with Life Support. The fancy martial arts moves that give the Boy Wonder a migraine can't lay a glove on the super speedster or uber-pugilist. The pseudo Terrors of Gotham don't last more than a couple Turns against the average Champions gaming group. If your players are like mine, the villains wouldn't even get to gloat about their master plan before being pummelled.

 

I've also had it happen in reverse. Created a basically normal hero with a trick cape and special weapon or a masked detective with some Boxing or Wrestling training. And the GM throws a SubMariner clone at me able to laugh off my best shots, snatch my gadgets from my hand and squish them into bobby pins. Even if the point totals are similar, the power levels aren't.

 

How do you deal with this in your campaigns? Or has it ever been an issue?

[JmOz]

Take a page from the comics:

 

Joker is not a threat to Superman, and a far cry from the JLA...

 

But those silly heroes want to SAVE lives, to bad if they don;t do X the city will blow up, while they do X you rob the banks blind. etc...

[BarryB]

JmOz has it right.

 

"Hit Me and the tactile force field I have will detonate a bomb. Somewhere. Just about a half-second beyond your maximum flying speed."

 

The other thing to remember is that people like the Joker and the Penguin and Gorilla Grond and the like study their opponents. They know their strengths and weaknesses. So you've got an armored superhero with full life support. Turn his teammates into grinning zombies. Make his armor grow snake heads and hiss at him after applying CobraGas .

 

Remember. You're the GM. You have an infinite number of power points in your GM power pool.

 

Imagine it first, then build it with points later.

[Rick]

Remember when Joker took on Supes in the Worlds Finest episode of Batman and Superman...Supes was all but dead.

[Hermit]

One of the most hated villains I had in my game was a normal, no powers. He was an organized crime boss nicknamed "Bones", an old man at that. There is no way he could have taken the heroes in a direct confrontation, but that didn't matter. When he finally DID go down (Months of play)... the players cheered.

 

It can be done, and is very satisfying actually

[CrosshairCollie]

If your heroes have Vulnerabilities or Susceptibilities, then it's possible for lower-powered villains who have discerned those weaknesses to threaten them. To use the above example, the Joker wasn't able to physically threaten Superman much ... but he had a 20 pound brick of Kryptonite to work with. Batman, despite being a 'mere mortal' ("There ain't nothin' mere about THAT mortal!"), doesn't have a crippling Susceptibility.

 

When you can't match 'em on power, you have to match them on brains.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Quite. Building a 'classic' villian is more a matter of play and planning than a matter of points and dice. These CVs (a new meaning for the term, woo-hoo!!) should have a) dozens of flunkies, frequently well-armed, a 'game plan', and c) one trump card for each PC Hero. Bombs, tear gas, Smylex canisters, poison in the city's water supply, hostages ... whatever.

 

Considering that these are Classic Villians, they should always make their move whenever there's a large crowd around, so that they can grab an attractive woman and threaten her with the acid flower/pistol/knife/trick cane. They should also have, pre-planted, lots of nasty things -- radio-triggered hand grenades and other distractions, that sort of thing.

 

Also, remember that when you have 'one villian' attacking a group of heros, your 'one villian' has to KNOW about the heros. Don't be afraid to use GM knowledge; duh, that's why you're the GM. No really good villian is going to start operations in Campaign City before he does his homework on what Heros are liable to show up. Mr. I'm-Invulnerable-Armor? How about a remote-controlled launcher with magnetic-homing armor-piercing missiles? SpeedyFlash? I have just the 'casually scatter six mini-grenade' Explosion attack for you. PsyBabe the MindKiller? What do you think I wear the stupid hat for, if not to carry my Mind-Shield plus Mental Damage Shield gizmo?

 

Classic Villians also may have 'subordinate supers' -- Joker has his Harley Quinn. And lots of zeros. Zeros are fun; if the villian has sixteen thugs, and at 'code blue!' every other thug grabs a hostage ... you have a lot of very troubled superheros. Make sure at least one of the hostages, and a few of the onlookers, are reporter-types. Be baaaad bad press for the heros if they allowed the mass slaughter of innocents.

 

To sum up:

[*]Classic Villians (CVs) study their opponents, and equip themselves appropriately.

[*]CVs use (abuse) the press in order to help box their opponents into no-win situations.

[*]CVs will properly use booby-trap setups to stymie the heros.

[*]CVs almost always have a gang of thugs to take their beatings for them.

[*]CVs make sure their gangs of thugs are all working off the same page -- i.e. they're well-trained thugs, with codes and everything.

[*]Hostages are a CV's best tool, after the acid flower, or the political immunity, or the ...

[/list=1]

Good luck, and enjoy.

[Smoot]

Remember- Avengers get plagued by relatively "normal" opposition, too: Iron Man had Obadiah Stane and Justin Hammer dogging his steps, Cap has Red Skull, Loki's pretty weak by Thor's standards, etc. Yet all of them cause loads of trouble.

 

From what you've said, you have a robot brick, a speedster, and a super pugilist. What to do with them largely depends on your villain's MO.

 

The thing about Bat-villains is that they didn't just put on costumes and start gunning for Batman. They initiate plots, sometimes plots so complex that it takes even Bats a while to so much as FIND them. They're plotters, not brawlers (That's what made Bane, Killer Croc, etc "new"- they just went to it).

 

For example, have the speedster have to be all over the place to prevent a catastrophe. This leaves the villain free to bring the scheme home.

[Nuadha]

...and win your in crunch and the villian seems defeated, have them detonate a bomb on a bridge or something that puts hundreds of lives at peril and will take everything your heroes have to stop from crumbling. "There's the rub, do gooder! Capture me or save that bus of children? Bwahahahahahaha!" Then the villian can escape in their pre-planned escape vehicle that is somehow themed to the villian.

[BlackSword]

One of the JLA series about two years ago (I don't remember the name of the story arc) had an excellent example of a 'mere semi-mortal' nearly dismantling the JLA. Ra's Al'Ghul hacked into Batman's computer and found Batman's "How to" guide on beating up super heroes.

 

Ra's can't fight any member of the JLA toe-to-toe, but using the knowledge from Batman, he learned all their weaknesses and how to go against them. Some of them were interesting because it wasn't an expected weakness. Have a speedster, up their metabolism by several factors so they can't control their muscle movements. Someone afraid/vulnerable of fire, spray their body with something flammable. I am pretty sure the series is in trade paperback now so you can read it at your local comic store.

 

--

Dan

[Nuadha]

The story arc is "Tower of Babel" and it is available in TPB.

[Balok]

It's all about brains, planning, and an organization. Most of the "normal" Bat opponents you mention have one of these, many have more than one.

 

The Joker is a genius level chemist, for example. One might say the Penguin's umbrella is symbolic -- if there's something rotten in Gotham, he's got it covered. Catwoman is actually probably the *least* capable of these, since her skills are primarily physical. Also, in recent times, her heart isn't in the same kind of villainy. And the Riddler -- keep in mind that his clues are two layer at a minimum -- three layer sometimes. The "obvious" answer points the players in exactly the *wrong* direction -- it's the answer beneath the answer that they need.

 

Sure, these guys will all lose in a knock down drag out -- but that's far from the only way to confront heroes.

[KA.]

Originally posted by BarryB

-snip-

The other thing to remember is that people like the Joker and the Penguin and Gorilla Grond and the like study their opponents.

-snip-

 

Oh, now you've done it!

Wait until everyone's favorite Super Genius Ape takes over the body of Grond!

Yikes!

(Time to start the write up. )

 

KA

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

From the 'Suicide Mind Control' thread:

 

Originally posted by Marcus

Worm, I like that nearly as much as 'There are twelve tactical nuclear devices in the city... For the sadistic in your GM circle, there might be..

no bombs

11 bombs (watch them LOOSE IT as the 11th hour approaches)

13 bombs (just cause im that kinda guy)

 

Interestingly enough, I should point something out about 'classic villians' and the heros they screw with: the villian can ALWAYS be counted on to be telling the truth (even if via a screwed-up riddle or the drop of a clue) about the doomsday weapons. If the villian doesn't tell the truth, then after the first or second time of this, the hero is going to 100% totally pulp them, and let's face it, no villian wants to die. So if the Joker says there's 12 bombs, then there's 12 bombs -- no more, no less, unless (with the 12th bomb) he leaves a note saying that there's one more. Villians who lie about the important things (i.e. civilian casualties) very shortly lose the ability to lie -- or do anything else, for that matter.

 

If you well and truly want a good 'classic' supervillian, they'll give the hero a 'way out' -- but it's going to be a tough one. 'You can find the first bomb where the earth meets the sky, ha ha!!' And each bomb has a clue leading to the next, to the next, to the next, to the last. A 'capture the flag' variant.

[Kevin Scrivner]

Good suggestions, all. But doesn't it still depend on your players being willing to play along rather than simply pounding the bad guys the moment they appear?

[Haerandir]

Originally posted by Kevin Scrivner

Good suggestions, all. But doesn't it still depend on your players being willing to play along rather than simply pounding the bad guys the moment they appear?

 

If you really have a problem with this, then let your players pound on the villain while the city burns down around them. That'll learn 'em.

 

At least, they should catch on by the third or fourth city.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Kevin Scrivner

Good suggestions, all. But doesn't it still depend on your players being willing to play along rather than simply pounding the bad guys the moment they appear?

 

Well, first, truly cunning bad guys make sure they arent' so easy to nab. Or, if the heroes refuse to play the game, they or some innocents pay for it. If I recall, in Champions, talking takes essentially no time, so start the phase out with a villain's declaration of his threat. If the heroes ignore that... well, there are consequences. Some bad guys are nuts enough to blow up a bridge etc just to prove a point.

 

Another trick to discourage 'See Bad Guy, Hit Bad Guy" knee jerk reaction is to have a villain stand in...someone in the same costume and looks alike our mastermind. Be it paid actor who has no idea what he's really in for, or mind controlled dupe, when a super hero ignores a villains warning, hits him.. and ends up hospitalizing (or worse) an innocent. It's a nasty trick, but it does work if used at the right time.

[Smoot]

The trick is to think in-genre without leaving gaps in reasoning large enough to drive a truck through.

 

In the case of your "see 'em, bash 'em" heroes, it might be a nice time to lead them on the proverbial "merry chase": the villain somehow hacks into local TV stations, "Interrupting this Broadcast" to taunt the heroes. (Important: NOT just waltzing in and taking over the studios, at least at first. Instead, s/he takes over the signal from a remote location, possibly a mobile one).

 

The heroes have no immediate target, only either a deadline ("Defuse my bombs, or Campaign City's in troooubllle!"), or a cryptic riddle. In the meantime, the villain uses the distraction for a heist, or something.

 

This is assuming that the villain's that straightforward. What kind of villain are we talking, here? Joker's easily on a par with Hannibal Lecter or the Se7en guy, in terms of genius and psychosis. Riddler, above all, wants people to admit and acknowledge that he's smarter than they are- it's just that the stakes get high. I suppose that almost all Bat-villains are so wrapped up in their own goals and motivations that it's rare for one to take the fight directly to the Bat (ie, Riddler's the first I know of to try to see what's going on over at Wayne Manor). If your villain is even slightly more focused, your PCs could be in for a world of hurt.

[Mutant for Hire]

Here is an interesting article pointing out how villains really need to be "matched" to their corresponding heroes:

 

http://www.crossoveruniverse.com/hero2.htm

 

Incidentally, the two companion articles are pretty good on how to create a compelling superhero. Pretty much required reading for everyone I think:

 

http://www.crossoveruniverse.com/hero1.htm

 

http://www.crossoveruniverse.com/hero3.htm

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Good articles. Also, good suggestions re: the 'bash 'em when you see 'em' heros. And remember -- the heros have to 'see' 'em first.

[Karma]

Originally posted by Wyrm Ouroboros

Good articles. Also, good suggestions re: the 'bash 'em when you see 'em' heros. And remember -- the heros have to 'see' 'em first.

Yes. Why even let on who is doing the threatening? The Riddler never signed his work, he just assumed that his genius would make it obvious.

So why not just hack into the 'time square jumbotron' or whatever and have the treat written there

That way "Find the bombs or everyone dies" has the triple effect of getting the heroes attention, causing mass panic (which is always a bonus) and telling every low life in the city that its open session on smash and grabs.

So even if the heroes find all the bombs and catch a villian they can never be sure its the right one.

[Willpower]

Just a comment on the Joker versus Superman thing. Some people have been replying with the notion that Joker only threatened Superman once, and there was a reason to it. Like he had a lot of kryptonite. Joker has actually challenged Superman MANY times, and has nearly defeated him almost every time. Now everyone is right in there is always a reason and generally he can't challenge him in direct confrontation, but he did when he stole Mxy's powers. He was more than a direct threat when he had those powers, but even the times he faced Supes without those powers he found a way he could threaten him. He did it from Jail, by having poisoned Lois Lane, when the only antidote that could be made was from his blood, but Supes would have to kill him to get the antidote. Which is using Supes CVK against him. So people like the Joker can threaten Superman, but yes they generally have a reason, as people have said that they can, and it is generally a plot reason, not just a chuink of said heroes susceptibility, though that is another way to do it.

 

This type of villain, CAN work in a Champions game, but it is hard, as it requires the players to play in character, and a lot of good planning on the GM's part. For instance, when Joker poisoned Lois Lane, it might have been easy for the Hero in question, if it were a player, to just say, "Ok, I kill him." Which then unless, as a GM, you planned on backing up the plan of the villain, and making all sorts of trouble, legal and psychological for the hero, there isn't much bite to the plan.

[Kevin Scrivner]

In the Superman issue I saw, the Joker came to Metropolis on a lark to bedevil "the big blue Boy Scout." He robbed a jewelry store using a Superman robot armed with Smilex gas (which took out guards) and a nuclear bomb (which enabled the Joker to escape while Supes was dealing with it). The Joker kidnapped Superman's friends and gave him a time limit to find them or else. Superman located the hideout easily, he explained to the villain, because the Joker had lined it with lead to foil his X-ray vision. Instead of concealing the victims, it made their prison stand out like a beacon, the one spot in the city the hero's gaze couldn't penetrate. Because the Joker regarded Superman as a musclebound oaf, he had underestimated him.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Originally posted by Willpower

This type of villain, CAN work in a Champions game, but it is hard, as it requires the players to play in character, and a lot of good planning on the GM's part. For instance, when Joker poisoned Lois Lane, it might have been easy for the Hero in question, if it were a player, to just say, "Ok, I kill him." Which then unless, as a GM, you planned on backing up the plan of the villain, and making all sorts of trouble, legal and psychological for the hero, there isn't much bite to the plan.

I'd just like to point out that if the players aren't playing their Psychological Limitations, playing In Character, etc. etc., well, what are you giving them XP for? A couple times of that, and the big ol' subtle GM croquet mallet comes swooping in to smack their ankles, like so:

 

'Well, Wally, looks like your character, Mr. Marvel, has just blown away his third city-threatening supervillian on live 'News at Noon'. Say, didn't you have three levels of a Reputation Perq, 'Honorable Do-Gooder'? And the usual 'understood' 'Reluctance to Kill' psych lim?'

 

"Uuuuh ... *checks sheet* Yeah?"

 

'Let me take a look at that for a moment, then. ...hmmm. Thought so -- says here you also have the Disadvantage Reputation of 'Honorable Do-Gooder, 11- Extreme', too. We're going to put a little editing on that. *write write write* Okay, there you go.'

 

"Hey, whaddadoin'?!? Now Mr. Marvel's Rep Perq is 'Cold-Blooded Killer', got a psych lim of 'Casual Killer', and his Disad Reputation is 'Murderous Anti-Hero, 14-'!!"

 

'Yeah, well, that's what you've been playing, man. Oh, yeah, one better -- you got a free 'Hunted'. Local Police, 14-, Less Powerful, Non-Combat Influence, Limited Area. And the Chief isn't gonna wanna answer your calls no more...'

 

"Gaaah!!"

They're allowed to play their characters any way they want, I agree -- but you, as the GM, are required to shape the world around them in response to their actions. Sometimes that means changing what they wrote on their sheets in order to reflect what they've been playing. Never, ever, EVER let a player get away with murder -- or rather, 'inappropriate (for the character) behavior' -- without having your NPCs respond appropriately. Mr. Marvel is going to be the 'sweetheart' of the Nightly News for weeks...

[Willpower]

Originally posted by Wyrm Ouroboros

I'd just like to point out that if the players aren't playing their Psychological Limitations, playing In Character, etc. etc., well, what are you giving them XP for? A couple times of that, and the big ol' subtle GM croquet mallet comes swooping in to smack their ankles, like so:

 

 

They're allowed to play their characters any way they want, I agree -- but you, as the GM, are required to shape the world around them in response to their actions. Sometimes that means changing what they wrote on their sheets in order to reflect what they've been playing. Never, ever, EVER let a player get away with murder -- or rather, 'inappropriate (for the character) behavior' -- without having your NPCs respond appropriately. Mr. Marvel is going to be the 'sweetheart' of the Nightly News for weeks...

 

I agree with you completely. That is what I was meaning. If the villain is making a plot around how the hero should react, based on known weaknesses. Then it is the GM's job to enforce that. If the Hero doesn't care that the villain wins by making the hero go against there weakness, then it is the GM's job to make that weakness come into play. (IE if the villain gets the hero to kill, which is against his COK which is bought at total, then the hero shoud probably have things happen based off that. Bought as total, this could include but not be limited too, psychological problems, maybe the hero starts to crack, maybe even starts another dual identity, which is something that happened to Superman once. Other things include affecting their rep and making them outlaws too, but in all cases, the GM should make it a problem. If the heroes are already wanted by the law, then it doesn't change much, but playing against a weakness, particularly when it is the center of a storyline should have consequences.