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Megascale Movement and Perception


Wanderer

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Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

So it's better to build Movement Powers with Variable Advantage' date='instead of having Megascale that can be scaled down.[/quote']

 

Well, it's better to build them in a multipower, probably: variable advantage costs more than a 2 slot MP with a combat and noncombat (megascale) movement. I think. :)

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Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

You can't scale it down to less than a MegaScale value though' date=' so the minimum you can have it is 1"=1km.[/quote']

 

Pretty sure you can define the 1" as whatever you like: the 1km is just the maximum for that level of advantage - you can make it 1"=10m if you like. I could be wrong, I often am. :nonp:

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Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

Pretty sure you can define the 1" as whatever you like: the 1km is just the maximum for that level of advantage - you can make it 1"=10m if you like. I could be wrong' date=' I often am. :nonp:[/quote']

 

You're correct, but you have to set it when you buy the power. That's why +1/4 variable advantage on flight is nice. It can be 1/2 END when I don;t need megascale, and 1" = 10", 100" or 1 KM as the need arises.

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Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

I see a Flash-esq character's megascale movement as having 3 relative components:

  1. The movement itself.
  2. The ability to avoid hitting obstacles in one's path.
  3. The ability to look at and remember things he sees along his path (like finding a bomb hidden in a city).

An analogy can be made with the once popular game Tetris.

  1. Movement translates to the speed at which the pieces fall.
  2. In the game, you have to find the correct orientation and placement for each piece and plan ahead of time. Imagine if you could see higher into the area where new pieces fall from. It would give you more time to plan ahead in your strategy of orientation and placement.
  3. How often do you remember the actual layout of pieces that you have cleared. Probably more so earlier in the game than in the later faster stages.

These translate to:

  1. megascale movement.
  2. megascale sense.
  3. rapid sense.

Allowing rapid sense to let a speedster react to obstacles in his path at the rapid multiplier is functionally equivalent to also letting him use rapid sense to make an autofire punch attack or an AOE Change Environment. Nobody gives those abilities to a speedster for free so why this one?

 

Another reason to actually pay for such 'inconsequencial abilities' is that not all speedsters with megascale movement would necessarily have megascale perceptions to match. Does anyone remember the black female Captain Marvell (2) from the 80's Avengers? From a pure movement perspective, I would say she is as fast or faster than DC's Flash when in her energy form. She does not have the same superspeed perception that he has though. If you eliminate the need for all the little extra's like this you eliminate some of the important methods of differentiating abilities of 2 otherwise mechanically similar charaters.

 

HM

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Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

I see a Flash-esq character's megascale movement as having 3 relative components:

  1. The movement itself.
  2. The ability to avoid hitting obstacles in one's path.
  3. The ability to look at and remember things he sees along his path (like finding a bomb hidden in a city).

An analogy can be made with the once popular game Tetris.

  1. Movement translates to the speed at which the pieces fall.
  2. In the game, you have to find the correct orientation and placement for each piece and plan ahead of time. Imagine if you could see higher into the area where new pieces fall from. It would give you more time to plan ahead in your strategy of orientation and placement.
  3. How often do you remember the actual layout of pieces that you have cleared. Probably more so earlier in the game than in the later faster stages.

These translate to:

  1. megascale movement.
  2. megascale sense.
  3. rapid sense.

 

We disagree on number 2: you see it as megascale perception, and I see it as fast reactions. To take an example, if your perception is megascaled then you are scuppered if the obstacles are less than 1km apart. Rapid reaction is part of the movement power - so long as you are not trying to navigate a maze, you should be OK - it is a non-combat movement after all.

 

RE Captain Marvell, she could change into light, disappear and re-appear, so I'd have built that as teleport rather than running or flight. That would also explain why she couldn't perceive stuff along the way.

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Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

We disagree on number 2: you see it as megascale perception' date=' and I see it as fast reactions. To take an example, if your perception is megascaled then you are scuppered if the obstacles are less than 1km apart. Rapid reaction is part of the movement power - [b']so long as you are not trying to navigate a maze[/b], you should be OK - it is a non-combat movement after all.

 

RE Captain Marvell, she could change into light, disappear and re-appear, so I'd have built that as teleport rather than running or flight. That would also explain why she couldn't perceive stuff along the way.

 

Flash CAN navigate a maze at near top speed. He HAS searched an entire city for a bomb at megascale only speeds. Captain Marvel can fly at less than lightspeed in her energy form (and does so quite often) so using the otherwise valid option of Teleport as a type of limitation on her speed of reactions while flying is a flawed argument.

 

HM

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Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

Flash CAN navigate a maze at near top speed. He HAS searched an entire city for a bomb at megascale only speeds. Captain Marvel can fly at less than lightspeed in her energy form (and does so quite often) so using the otherwise valid option of Teleport as a type of limitation on her speed of reactions while flying is a flawed argument.

 

HM

 

1. Then he's not using non-combat movement, and so not using megascale. Searching would be some sort of rapid clairvoyance, only to see places you could get to at megascale velocity, but it isn't megascale move and search unless there's so much handwaving that we're about to have a hurricane.

 

2. Long distance will be mega-scale teleport, just hoverin' there will be normal flight linked to desolid. Or it is scaleable megascale flight linked to desolid WITHOUT the rapid senses, so she can't see what's around her when she's moving too fast.

 

I'm pretty sure they never thought Captain Marvell all the way through anyway...:)

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Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

1. Then he's not using non-combat movement, and so not using megascale. Searching would be some sort of rapid clairvoyance, only to see places you could get to at megascale velocity, but it isn't megascale move and search unless there's so much handwaving that we're about to have a hurricane.

 

2. Long distance will be mega-scale teleport, just hoverin' there will be normal flight linked to desolid.

 

I'm pretty sure they never thought Captain Marvell all the way through anyway...:)

 

A character can make A Half Move with Noncombat Movement (megascale or not makes no difference). See the last paragraph on page 363 of 5ER. It makes a reference to being able to attack at Noncombat speeds. If that is possible, making Half Moves and Half Phase searches at Noncombat Speeds certainly is as well. Clairsentience/Clairvoyance IS a crazy power to give someone like Flash since he actually has to physically be present and the definition of the power is one or more senses usable at range. What I presented is fully within the scope of rules presented in all current HERO books.

 

I am not arguing that you not use that as a valid house rule in your game. I am saying that within the scope of published material this is the easiest way to simulate the effects.

 

re: Captain Marvel:

That could be said of a great many comic characters but it is the source material for the genre.

 

HM

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Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

You're correct' date=' but you have to set it when you buy the power. That's why +1/4 variable advantage on flight is nice. It can be 1/2 END when I don;t need megascale, and 1" = 10", 100" or 1 KM as the need arises.[/quote']

 

That is abusive and technically violates the rules for Variable Advantage. VA isn't a carte blanche to take any +1/4 (or whatever value you've bought) you like. You are limited by what the GM allows (and only if you have an extremely limited selection would you have a lessor Advantage, like if you could only have 2 or three Advantages with set values you could choose from). At least, I can't think of any GM that would allow someone with Variable Advantage to take MegaScale at any increment they feel like at the time.

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Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

Flash CAN navigate a maze at near top speed. He HAS searched an entire city for a bomb at megascale only speeds. Captain Marvel can fly at less than lightspeed in her energy form (and does so quite often) so using the otherwise valid option of Teleport as a type of limitation on her speed of reactions while flying is a flawed argument.

 

HM

 

Just a minor pet peeve, but you are describing SFX in terms of game mechanics even though you have no idea what "game mechanics" the authors had in mind. Technically, no character can do what you describe the Flash doing at MegaScale speed. The fast he has would suggest he isn't using MegaScale Movement when he does that. Maybe he's using Clairsentience with Rapid Sense, maybe he has a lot more NonCombat multipliers then we are giving him credit for. Maybe he has a Multipower slot with a +6 Overall Skill Levels which he's just used to search the city two Time Chart levels quicker (wow, it'll take all week to search the entire city... but the Flash can do it in a few hours).

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Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

Are y'all sure MegaScaled movement is Non-Combat? I don't recall that. I know you can't perform certain maneuvers, such as Move Through and Move By, with MegaScaled movement, but I didn't think it was technically considered Non-Combat. If it were, how could you ever engage in starship combat?

 

Whatever the case, your turn mode and acceleration is the same as the non-MegaScaled version of the movement, except that again hexes are treated as being the size of the MegaScaled hex. So, yes, you can maneuver around obstacles, though in a limited fashion.

 

I would view MegaScaled Sight as becoming more pixelated. It wouldn't be that you can't see anything within a kilometer of yourself (that would be like saying you can't normally see anything closer than one hex away), but that you can't distinguish features that are smaller than the smallest feature you could see normally, scaled up by the MegaScale factor (for example if you could normally distinguish a feature that has a radius of one millimeter when it is two meters--or one hex--away, then with your MegaScale 1 hex = 1 km Sight you generally can't distinguish anything that is smaller than 500 mm, or half a meter, in radius). That means you could certainly see enough to go around things with your MegaScaled movement. I would actually say that my vision starts to break up when things get closer than about 10 cm from my eyes, so it seems reasonable to say that a MegaScale 1 hex = 1 km version of Sight would start to have trouble distinguishing anything closer than about 50 m clearly.

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Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

You're correct' date=' but you have to set it when you buy the power. That's why +1/4 variable advantage on flight is nice. It can be 1/2 END when I don;t need megascale, and 1" = 10", 100" or 1 KM as the need arises.[/quote']

 

...wouldn't you need a +1 advantage: +1/2 variable advantage? You need to buy megascale (at least +1/4) AND Can be scaled back (another +1/4)...

 

Hmm. Anyway, about searching cities:

 

No rules on how long it takes to search a hex: I'd say 1 phase. Assuming that Rapid sense allowed you to search more rapidly, then you'd be looking at 10 hexes per phase for one level, 100 for 2 etc...assuming you can half move and search you can search one area per phase.

 

Now assume that the city is quite small and has a radius of 1 km. Very small. That's a little over 3 million square metres or about 750 000 hexes.

 

Assuming that the average space in a city (i.e. the average area you can search in a single search attempt without being blocked by intervening objects) is, say a 10 metre radius, or about 75 hexes in one go, that means you can't really take advantage of rapid beyond the x100 level and it will take 10000 phases to search a city, and even at SPD 12 that's nearly 3 hours.

 

The movement doesn't enter into it: you're only covering about 200km in that time.

 

Double the radius of the city and multiply the search time by 4....and this is a really generous estimate: unless the bomb was huge the search would likely take far longer...

 

If you want to search a large area quickly you need a limited form of clairvoyance or an enhanced sense. The sfx can be that you actually go and look if you like, but it is the only way to do it in a reasonable time.

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Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

Are y'all sure MegaScaled movement is Non-Combat? I don't recall that. I know you can't perform certain maneuvers, such as Move Through and Move By, with MegaScaled movement, but I didn't think it was technically considered Non-Combat. If it were, how could you ever engage in starship combat?

 

Whatever the case, your turn mode and acceleration is the same as the non-MegaScaled version of the movement, except that again hexes are treated as being the size of the MegaScaled hex. So, yes, you can maneuver around obstacles, though in a limited fashion.

 

I would view MegaScaled Sight as becoming more pixelated. It wouldn't be that you can't see anything within a kilometer of yourself (that would be like saying you can't normally see anything closer than one hex away), but that you can't distinguish features that are smaller than the smallest feature you could see normally, scaled up by the MegaScale factor (for example if you could normally distinguish a feature that has a radius of one millimeter when it is two meters--or one hex--away, then with your MegaScale 1 hex = 1 km Sight you generally can't distinguish anything that is smaller than 500 mm, or half a meter, in radius). That means you could certainly see enough to go around things with your MegaScaled movement. I would actually say that my vision starts to break up when things get closer than about 10 cm from my eyes, so it seems reasonable to say that a MegaScale 1 hex = 1 km version of Sight would start to have trouble distinguishing anything closer than about 50 m clearly.

 

Pretty sure. You can perform combat manoeuvres, it is just that you'll be at 0 OCV and you probably don't want to take even half the damage from a megascale move-through :)

 

As regards the megascale sight thing, the rules are that it doesn't work within its minimum range - so if you have 1" = 1km, you can't effectively see anything closer than 1km. Your analysis is a good one but forgets the Space Monkey Effect: a tiny movement translated over a great distance equals a large movement at the other end. This means that, if you are looking through a telescope, a small movement might bring the moon into focus: it is a huge object, but try and focus on something across the street and you'll find the telescope swings past the target several times before you can home in on it. You may be IN FACT able to focus on a brick in the house across the road, but if you move at all then it whizzes out of your viewfinder. It is not so much a problem of actually being able to see somethin but the ability to focus ON a particular object: you are not, in practice able to access your normal full field of vision when using magnification.

 

If you had all the time in the world then sure you can focus on stuff nearby: you just are not going to see it because your field of vision has become a tiny cone not a 120 degree arc anymore.

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Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

Well' date=' it's better to build them in a multipower, probably: variable advantage costs more than a 2 slot MP with a combat and noncombat (megascale) movement. I think. :)[/quote']

 

Nope, because then you cannot put the Movement Power (typically Flight) in a EC. Far better to use VA, such as:

 

Graviton-Manipulating Flight: Flight 20-25", Variable Advantage (+1/2 Advantages; Limited Group of Advantages (Reduced Endurance, No Turn Mode, Combat Acceleration/Deceleration, Megascale); +3/4)

 

No need for clumsy MS Naked Advantages or setting up a Flight MP (or NCM, for that matter). VA for Flight is the by far better power construct to add megascale.

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Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

Nope, because then you cannot put the Movement Power (typically Flight) in a EC. Far better to use VA, such as:

 

Graviton-Manipulating Flight: Flight 20-25", Variable Advantage (+1/2 Advantages; Limited Group of Advantages (Reduced Endurance, No Turn Mode, Combat Acceleration/Deceleration, Megascale); +3/4)

 

No need for clumsy MS Naked Advantages or setting up a Flight MP (or NCM, for that matter). VA for Flight is the by far better power construct to add megascale.

 

You're not one of those people who bothers about AP limits are you? :D

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Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

You're not one of those people who bothers about AP limits are you? :D

 

Yep, but in my own private league default superheroing is Avengers/JLA/Authority, Daredevil is for sissies :nya: and AP limits hover at 80-120. A 20-25 Flight with a Variable Advantage (especially if limited) is fully within the range. :D

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Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

Yep' date=' but in my own private league default superheroing is Avengers/JLA/Authority, Daredevil is for sissies :nya: and AP limits hover at 80-120. A 20-25 Flight with a Variable Advantage (especially if limited) is fully within the range. :D[/quote']

 

ECs being overused is another hobby-horse of mine :)

 

Even so a 3/4 advantage means that your maximum combat speed is less than .6 of the guy who doesn't take it: in the example you give 25" against up to 44" (a difference, on a movethrough, of 7 dice). Even if you stick it in a multipower of 74 points you get 25" against 37" = a difference of 4d6 on a move through - not to be neglected if opponents may have 40+ PD force fields...meanwhile in the other slot of the multipower, can fly anywhere between 10 times as fast and lightspeed....

 

Neither approach is 'right', but I'm not convinced that variable advantage is a particularly useful way of doing movement powers.

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Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

That is abusive and technically violates the rules for Variable Advantage. VA isn't a carte blanche to take any +1/4 (or whatever value you've bought) you like. You are limited by what the GM allows (and only if you have an extremely limited selection would you have a lessor Advantage' date=' like if you could only have 2 or three Advantages with set values you could choose from). At least, I can't think of any GM that would allow someone with Variable Advantage to take MegaScale at any increment they feel like at the time.[/quote']

 

To clarify, I view this as the full +1/2 advantage on flight - he had +1/4 worth of advantages to choose form as a result. Your comments indicate you think I'm talking about the reduced advantage. How many advantages are practical on Flight at +1/4? Off the top, I see Megascale and 1/2 END. I believe the Turn Mode and Acceleration/Deceleration advantages require +1/2, but maybe there's something in there. Usable by another (instead of you) in theopry, but I'd deny it in practice since, by swapping the advantage, , you effectively have "usable by self or one other".

 

Given this limited selection, I don't see a big issue allowing the character to modulate their Megascale - especially since any Megascale flight means noncombat movement, so it's only likely to be used for rapid transit.

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Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

Are y'all sure MegaScaled movement is Non-Combat? I don't recall that.

 

(From FREd page 170, 3rd paragraph down)

 

MegaMovement is considered Noncombat Movement even though the MegaScale effect applies only to the character's inches of Combat Movement.

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Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

I don't think you can have no turn mode when mega-moving: it is always non-combat movement. Being able to change direction at will would mean that you could effectively have combat reactions. As far as I'm concerned, non-combat movement, including mega-movement, is basically in a straight line...with only minor course variations allowed.

The book very specifically details how that turn mode applies to flying in non-combat.

 

FREd page 240 and this is only listed under flight turn-mode:

 

As a simple rule, a character using Combat Movement cannot makre more than five evenly spaced turns during a move. If the character is moving at non-combat velocities, he can make no more than 2 evenly spaced turns.

 

So, if I am flying, with a turn mode, I can still make 2 evenly spaced turns. And I assume that I don't have to worry about this kind of thing at all if I have no turn mode.

 

Although, it is possible that I am missing something here, maybe you can reference a different quote from the book which show that turning is not allowed in any non-combat movement.

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Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

The book very specifically details how that turn mode applies to flying in non-combat.

 

FREd page 240 and this is only listed under flight turn-mode:

 

 

 

So, if I am flying, with a turn mode, I can still make 2 evenly spaced turns. And I assume that I don't have to worry about this kind of thing at all if I have no turn mode.

 

Although, it is possible that I am missing something here, maybe you can reference a different quote from the book which show that turning is not allowed in any non-combat movement.

 

Well spotted: I didn't have the book with me. What I am pretty sure it does say under 'no turn mode' though is that it shouldn't generally be applied to personal modes of movement that do have a turn mode (i.e. flight). Megascale is already a STOP power and adding dodgy constructs on top of this rings alarm balls.

 

Whatever the rules say I would probably construe an attempt to make megascale movement completely manoeuvreable as an abusive construct, mind you that would depend on why you wanted it and what you planned to do with it. If it is completely manoeuvreable there's no good reason you should have half DCV and 0 OCV...

 

When moving non-combat I'd even be inclined to apply turn mode to running, which doesn't normally have it. If you don't have SOME sort of turn mode mechanism, then you can just make 3 consecutive 60 degree turns and instantly change direction, which is clearly an abuse of the acceleration/deceleration rules.

 

Even if your powers somehow justify being able to make 90 degree turns and stopping on a dime (Man, I just don't DO inertia...), you'd still have to be able to react in time: to get around an obstacle, e.g. navigating a maze at megascale or noncombat speed I'd want DEX rolls at every turn. You could use Area Knowledge as a secondary roll. It would certainly not be an automatic thing. Megamoving from Washington to Seattle, basically outdoors: fine. Maybe a navigation roll but you can see the objects in your way in plenty of time to move. Running through every room and corridor in a skyscraper at Mach 3? What's your DEX roll?

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Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

Well spotted: I didn't have the book with me. What I am pretty sure it does say under 'no turn mode' though is that it shouldn't generally be applied to personal modes of movement that do have a turn mode (i.e. flight).

I find that statement a bit confusing. Why would you want to apply the advantage 'no turn mode' to a move power which already doesn't have one? It seems to me that such an advantage was made specifically for a case like flight.

 

Megascale is already a STOP power and adding dodgy constructs on top of this rings alarm balls.

 

Whatever the rules say I would probably construe an attempt to make megascale movement completely manoeuvreable as an abusive construct, mind you that would depend on why you wanted it and what you planned to do with it. If it is completely manoeuvreable there's no good reason you should have half DCV and 0 OCV...

 

When moving non-combat I'd even be inclined to apply turn mode to running, which doesn't normally have it. If you don't have SOME sort of turn mode mechanism, then you can just make 3 consecutive 60 degree turns and instantly change direction, which is clearly an abuse of the acceleration/deceleration rules.

 

Even if your powers somehow justify being able to make 90 degree turns and stopping on a dime (Man, I just don't DO inertia...), you'd still have to be able to react in time: to get around an obstacle, e.g. navigating a maze at megascale or noncombat speed I'd want DEX rolls at every turn. You could use Area Knowledge as a secondary roll. It would certainly not be an automatic thing. Megamoving from Washington to Seattle, basically outdoors: fine. Maybe a navigation roll but you can see the objects in your way in plenty of time to move. Running through every room and corridor in a skyscraper at Mach 3? What's your DEX roll?

I have NEVER been a fan of Mega-Scale. (I'd be for getting rid of it)

 

Mechanics already exist for increasing movement, and if they are too expensive, then they should just be made cheaper.

 

As for the rest of it, if your flight lets you manuver with total control at a given speed, I disagree with making you take DEX rolls to navigate, or rolls to see if you can breath at that velocity.

 

If you are going to go in that direction (looking at logical side-effects of powers), then where do you stop? I can think of many other situations where I could enforce side-effects on characters. Maybe high STR characters should have to make rolls all the time to see if they can control their vast STR to avoid breaking all the normal objects in their pathways.

 

To my mind, HERO is an effect based game. There is nothing in HERO that will stop you from have a 999d6 attack defined as trowing cream pies. The act of enforcing realism comes from the GM and Players.

 

Basically, if you want characters to be limited while moving at high speeds (beyond what the rules strictly say), I'd suggest taking limitations or disadvantages to reflect those problems.

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Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

I have NEVER been a fan of Mega-Scale. (I'd be for getting rid of it)

 

Mechanics already exist for increasing movement, and if they are too expensive, then they should just be made cheaper.

 

I agree with you on just about everything else. And you are perfectly justified in not liking the advantage. However, if you just make normal non combat multipliers cheaper (like +X2 for 2 points that was suggested earlier) you run the risk of letting non-speedsters encroach on the speedster schtick too easily from a points perspective.

 

HM

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Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

I find that statement a bit confusing. Why would you want to apply the advantage 'no turn mode' to a move power which already doesn't have one? It seems to me that such an advantage was made specifically for a case like flight.

 

Well, you wouldn't, but I'm pretty sure that's what it says in the book.

 

 

I have NEVER been a fan of Mega-Scale. (I'd be for getting rid of it)

 

Mechanics already exist for increasing movement, and if they are too expensive, then they should just be made cheaper.

 

As for the rest of it, if your flight lets you manuver with total control at a given speed, I disagree with making you take DEX rolls to navigate, or rolls to see if you can breath at that velocity.

 

If you are going to go in that direction (looking at logical side-effects of powers), then where do you stop? I can think of many other situations where I could enforce side-effects on characters. Maybe high STR characters should have to make rolls all the time to see if they can control their vast STR to avoid breaking all the normal objects in their pathways.

 

To my mind, HERO is an effect based game. There is nothing in HERO that will stop you from have a 999d6 attack defined as trowing cream pies. The act of enforcing realism comes from the GM and Players.

 

Basically, if you want characters to be limited while moving at high speeds (beyond what the rules strictly say), I'd suggest taking limitations or disadvantages to reflect those problems.

 

My objection here is that, if you have 'incredibly fast non-combat flight, however it might have been built' and you've got away with no turn mode or acceleration/deceleration, I'd have no problem with you zipping from here to the wall at the end of the corridor and back at something like light speed.

 

If you want to navigate an area that you don't know, however, I think you need to take it more carefully. Ever run in a building, gone round a corner and bumped into someone? I have. I was going non-combat, I noticed them - but it was too late to stop. Flying or running at ludicrous speeds would have similar problems: you could run along corridors, you could turn corners BUT if what you found round there was not what you were expecting (another long straight corridor, probably...) you'll need a DEX roll to react.

 

Just from a 'where's the sense in the design' POV, if you can avoid things with relative relativistic velocities, you should be playing an utterly unhittable character.

 

This is, of course, my take on it. What you do in games you play in is fine. The real test theough, in my mind, is 'Why do you want to be able to do that'?

 

If the answer is so that I can run round the entire building in one phase and back and know where everything is...well, I'd say you're letting sfx over-ride the build. You obviously want some sort of limited N-Ray vision or somesuch.

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