Megascale Movement and Perception

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

I think this megasense/megamovement issue is one of those examples' date=' as no one has ever suggested that (for example) running at ridiculous speeds (without megascale) requires increased perception and as that indicates throughout the system it is not normal to require a different power to make one power work "as is".[/quote']

 

This is a big part of the issue, to me. 5" Running, Megascale (1" = 1 km, so 5 km per phase) requires Megascale sight to be used (by the book). However, nothing in the book would require megascale senses to use 5" Running with +8 NCM (5,560" per phase = just over 5 km per phase). Nor are megascale senses required to use FTL, which is considerably faster than 5km per phase. Why?

[Bloodstone]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

That may actually be one of the "balancing" factors here. MegaRunning is a lot cheeper then buying Running with a huge NCM multiplier, even if they are designed to accomplish pretty much the same thing.

[Captain Pants]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

That may actually be one of the "balancing" factors here. MegaRunning is a lot cheeper then buying Running with a huge NCM multiplier' date=' even if they are designed to accomplish pretty much the same thing.[/quote']

 

I very much agree that Megarunning is cheaper. Given a SPD of 6, and you just buy Naked Megascale for a normal ncm running of 12", and Naked Megascale for normal sight, you wind up going 13,421.62 mph, or Mach 18.1, for a whopping 8 pts. Of course, that also means that whenever you move, you move 1 km at a time. If wanted the same speed in ncm, you would need a x1024 ncm, which is 45 pts... but you have some control over your movement for combat.

 

I usually use a multipower with both Running and Megarunning. Using high NCM is quite inefficient when you can use Megascale, IMHO.

 

My $.02.

 

- Captain Pants

[prestidigitator]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

My statement was taken directly from a rules book, though likely pre-5e. Eidetic meory + speed reading was explicitly defined to mean you can memorize as fast as you can turn the pages.

 

The classic photographic memory remembers everything, and does not require study time, BTW. Seems to me it would have its good and bad features (great when studying history, for example, but lousy when you'd like to ejoy re-reading a novel or watching a favorite movie again).

Yes, Eidetic Memory and Speed Reading might allow you to memorize a whole book by just flipping through it. The Eidetic Memory allows you to remember what you process. The Speed Reading allows you to process the information faster than normal.

 

BTW, Eidetic Memory does not represent real life photographic memory, but something more. Photographic memory does not mean you do not forget things. Photographic memory means that what you do remember, you remember with great detail. You might recall having seen a painting of The Last Supper at some point, but can you close your eyes and actually count the number of people in the painting, recall what each is doing or holding, what they are wearing, what is on the table? Someone with a photographic memory can. They might be able to look at a slide and later picture all the text on it. That does not mean it doesn't take them time to process the meaning of what they remember. Ask them how a word was spelled, and they might have to close their eyes and tell you letter by letter.

 

My half sister's mother has a photographic memory. She also happens to have a relatively poor long-term memory. Ask her about an article she read this morning and she can recall it word for word. Ask her about something she read a week ago, and she might not even remember having read it (or only be able to tell you vaguely what it was about).

[zornwil]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

That may actually be one of the "balancing" factors here. MegaRunning is a lot cheeper then buying Running with a huge NCM multiplier' date=' even if they are designed to accomplish pretty much the same thing.[/quote']

Then I would think that the costs are what have to be addressed, not arbitrary changes to the base system mechanics.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

This is a big part of the issue' date=' to me. 5" Running, Megascale (1" = 1 km, so 5 km per phase) requires Megascale sight to be used (by the book). However, nothing in the book would require megascale senses to use 5" Running with +8 NCM (5,560" per phase = just over 5 km per phase). Nor are megascale senses required to use FTL, which is considerably faster than 5km per phase. Why?[/quote']After thinking long and hard on this subject, I'm going to do an about face from my previous opinion on this issue.

 

I was finally conviced after reading 5ER ,page 264, 3rd paragraph which states:

If the character lacks a MegaSense, or has a MegaSense at a lesser level of MegaScaling than his movement, for every step down the MegaScale Table by which MegaMovement exceeds the MegaScaling on his Sense, he suffers a -1 penalty to make PER Rolls to see obstacles in time to avoid them. The GM may increase or decrease this penalty if appropriate. ...

Since the suggested option for applying MegaScale as a Naked Modifier* to Normal Sight (25 active points) does not work using the current Hero Designer rules (*It automatically becomes an Instant power that Costs End, which was not mentioned in the USPD example). This is extremely clunky as well as expensive.

 

So really, like Oddhat stated much earlier in this thread, it does make much more sense to just buy an appropriate amount of Enhanced Perception and/or Telescopic Sense and then possibly applying the limitation: Only To Percieve Objects In Path While Moving At MegaScale Speed (-1/2) to it.

 

 

HM

(crazy flipflopper)

[prestidigitator]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

Since the suggested option for applying MegaScale as a Naked Modifier* to Normal Sight (25 active points) does not work using the current Hero Designer rules (*It automatically becomes an Instant power that Costs End, which was not mentioned in the USPD example). This is extremely clunky as well as expensive.

 

So really, like Oddhat stated much earlier in this thread, it does make much more sense to just buy an appropriate amount of Enhanced Perception and/or Telescopic Sense and then possibly applying the limitation: Only To Percieve Objects In Path While Moving At MegaScale Speed (-1/2) to it.

Wait! You're basing the way you think it should be done with the way that Hero Designer just happens to implement things?!!?!?!? I just gotta wonder at that!

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

Wait! You're basing the way you think it should be done with the way that Hero Designer just happens to implement things?!!?!?!? I just gotta wonder at that!

 

Technically, that part of Hero Designer is correct. The general rules for Naked Advantages DO change continuous 0 End powers into Instant that now cost End (see 5ER page 244-245). The example of Swift Sight (MegaScale for Normal Sight) from USPD page 205 does not mention this aspect of the rules in its description. I would guess that this is either due to USPD being published before 5ER and perhaps a minor change was made to the rules for Naked Advantages (unlikely) or this is another example of a special case similar to that of Regeneration (with no maximum Body as a default) via Healing (my bet).

 

Someone else is welcome to try and get Steve L. to confirm/disprove this via the Rules Thread.

 

HM

[zornwil]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

(snipped out of context) Since the suggested option for applying MegaScale as a Naked Modifier* to Normal Sight (25 active points) does not work using the current Hero Designer rules (*It automatically becomes an Instant power that Costs End' date=' which was not mentioned in the USPD example). This is extremely clunky as well as expensive.[/quote']

 

As stated parenthetically above, I am taking this out of context and understand there's a broader context as to how one would build this with pen and paper regardless of HD, but I sure hope we don't start using HD as any sort of rules determinant!

 

PS - this is not a criticism of HD, I would make the same comment re Metacreator or any other tool even if it were the official HERO chargen tool

 

PPS - whoops, duped prestidigitator's comments, sorry! So consider this an emphatic ditto

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

As stated parenthetically above, I am taking this out of context and understand there's a broader context as to how one would build this with pen and paper regardless of HD, but I sure hope we don't start using HD as any sort of rules determinant!

 

PS - this is not a criticism of HD, I would make the same comment re Metacreator or any other tool even if it were the official HERO chargen tool

 

PPS - whoops, duped prestidigitator's comments, sorry! So consider this an emphatic ditto

Further clarification.... HD was not what really convinced me. I indented the section of 5ER that did that. HD's handling of the rule was just "the icing on the cake" since it reminded of the official book rule. So I think any fears of HD influencing the rules instead of the other way around are a little premature.

 

HM

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

So really' date=' like [b']Oddhat[/b] stated much earlier in this thread, it does make much more sense to just buy an appropriate amount of Enhanced Perception and/or Telescopic Sense and then possibly applying the limitation: Only To Percieve Objects In Path While Moving At MegaScale Speed (-1/2) to it.

 

I'f be inclined to set the limitation higher, as enhanced perception or telescopic sense otherwise has considerably greater utility. This is being restricted to a fairly minor use compared to having bonuses to perception rolls at all times.

 

However, I still lean to the school of thought that powers should come "all equipped" and not require a second power to be used for their basic purpose. Since Flash must buy Megascale Sight to avoid smashing into objects, shouldn't he also be required to purchase some defenses so the friction and wind resistance don't damage him? Perhaps a Suppress for the sonic boom he should be creating?

[zornwil]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

Further clarification.... HD was not what really convinced me. I indented the section of 5ER that did that. HD's handling of the rule was just "the icing on the cake" since it reminded of the official book rule. So I think any fears of HD influencing the rules instead of the other way around are a little premature.

 

HM

I know, like I said I know you meant it would be that way with pen and paper, i.e., per the rules. I just was making a general cautionary note. PS - just because I could see people taking your comment at face value and/or using the approach without regard to researching the rules.

[zornwil]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

I'f be inclined to set the limitation higher, as enhanced perception or telescopic sense otherwise has considerably greater utility. This is being restricted to a fairly minor use compared to having bonuses to perception rolls at all times.

 

However, I still lean to the school of thought that powers should come "all equipped" and not require a second power to be used for their basic purpose. Since Flash must buy Megascale Sight to avoid smashing into objects, shouldn't he also be required to purchase some defenses so the friction and wind resistance don't damage him? Perhaps a Suppress for the sonic boom he should be creating?

I would agree, of course, and posting not to just say that but to add that if there is such a concern on megascaled movement, maybe Megascale just needs to be costed differently for movement. As much of a pain as it might be, I could see the Advantage values for Megascale broken out by type of modification (movement, senses, attacks).

 

By the way, what does megascaled desolid do...

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

It morphs into Growth.

 

Really!

 

Then your character is Kronos the ethereal Titanian Eternal.

 

Hawksmoor

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

I would agree' date=' of course, and posting not to just say that but to add that if there is such a concern on megascaled movement, maybe Megascale just needs to be costed differently for movement. As much of a pain as it might be, I could see the Advantage values for Megascale broken out by type of modification (movement, senses, attacks).[/quote']

 

To me, Megascale is built for movement and, perhaps, for senses. So Captain Speedy can run 1 million km per second. So what? He can get anywhere. Add in Usable By Others and he can get the team anywhere. If the characters have this kind of travel capacity, the GM can build a need for it into his plots. If not, he doesn't - the characters take their own vehicle, or a commercial airplane, and the action happens when they arrive. It's a plot device, so it shouldn't carry a huge cost.

 

MS senses = the "spy eye in the sky", an info gathering tool. You still have to know where to look/listen, so it's not omniscience by any sense. Depending on the game, maybe a greater advantage cost is warranted.

 

To me, it's attacks where Megascale can fall down. A 1d6 NND, AE 1 hex, Megascale 10 km can put a city to sleep. Megascale attack + megascale senses = character who can attack with limited/ no fear of counterattack. Here, I can definitely see a case for a larger advantage cost.

 

But, regardless of cost, the bigger issue is whether you want these kinds of abilities in your game. If not, don't allow it. If I'm planning a campaign based around mysteries, Megascale Senses likely go on the "prohibited list" along with Telepathy.

[Vondy]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

I'm really considering making a "mach" adder. Megascale is clunky and isn't very granular. I may only want my character with 40" of flight to be able to hit mach one. I'm thinking each mach of movement would be +5.

[zornwil]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

It morphs into Growth.

 

Really!

 

Then your character is Kronos the ethereal Titanian Eternal.

 

Hawksmoor

Really? That's what Steve Long would say? Thanks!

 

[zornwil]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

To me, Megascale is built for movement and, perhaps, for senses. So Captain Speedy can run 1 million km per second. So what? He can get anywhere. Add in Usable By Others and he can get the team anywhere. If the characters have this kind of travel capacity, the GM can build a need for it into his plots. If not, he doesn't - the characters take their own vehicle, or a commercial airplane, and the action happens when they arrive. It's a plot device, so it shouldn't carry a huge cost.

 

MS senses = the "spy eye in the sky", an info gathering tool. You still have to know where to look/listen, so it's not omniscience by any sense. Depending on the game, maybe a greater advantage cost is warranted.

 

To me, it's attacks where Megascale can fall down. A 1d6 NND, AE 1 hex, Megascale 10 km can put a city to sleep. Megascale attack + megascale senses = character who can attack with limited/ no fear of counterattack. Here, I can definitely see a case for a larger advantage cost.

 

But, regardless of cost, the bigger issue is whether you want these kinds of abilities in your game. If not, don't allow it. If I'm planning a campaign based around mysteries, Megascale Senses likely go on the "prohibited list" along with Telepathy.

On a tangent, perhaps the oddest thing about megascale is that one of its primary applications is for GMs to build NPC devices and such, and what are basically plot devices! Not a bad thing, though, as at least you can get an "orthodox" Active Points cost if needed.

 

As to attacks, I half agree, half don't. Where I agree is that by all means one could easily build a devastating attack and it really isn't balanced, absolutely requiring GM oversight/intervention. Where I don't agree is that for "small" powers it can produce a cool AoE that is more flavor and is a much better-balanced cost than buying up AoE, even if perhaps mildly cheesy. I'm thinking of Change Environment sorts of things and very minor attacks that are irritants but should effect some wide area indicating a character's effects.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

Or we could resist the urge to pointlesly stat out every frickin' in-genre or SFX linked "that's just how it works" ability.

 

So, how do you build a box of tissues in Hero?

 

 

DAMN SKIPPY!

[prestidigitator]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

Technically' date=' that part of Hero Designer is correct. The general rules for Naked Advantages DO change continuous 0 End powers into Instant that now cost End (see 5ER page 244-245). The example of Swift Sight (MegaScale for Normal Sight) from USPD page 205 does not mention this aspect of the rules in its description. I would guess that this is either due to USPD being published before 5ER and perhaps a minor change was made to the rules for Naked Advantages (unlikely) or this is another example of a special case similar to that of Regeneration (with no maximum Body as a default) via Healing (my bet).[/quote']

The sited rule only applies to general Naked Advantages. "Naked Advantages," that only apply to one Power don't work this way.

[Silbeg]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

I'm really considering making a "mach" adder. Megascale is clunky and isn't very granular. I may only want my character with 40" of flight to be able to hit mach one. I'm thinking each mach of movement would be +5.

 

I have actually ran in to this issue on a character I was working on myself. I had a sonic-based super (Resonance was his name, but he was never finished) that I gave Megascale flight to... I figured that he should be limited by the speed of sound, so put a -0 limitation to that effect on the power. Given the scale, I didn't believe it really merited even a -1/4 in this case.

[zornwil]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

The sited rule only applies to general Naked Advantages. "Naked Advantages' date='" that only apply to [i']one Power[/i] don't work this way.

Unless I'm misreading, I believe you're incorrect. The clause on 245 says "All Advantages and Limitations applicable to the base power...function with the naked Advantage but do not alter its cost. Reduced Endurance is an exception - as discussed above, a naked Advantage has a normal END cost unless the character buys Reduced Endurance for it separately.)" (emphasis mine)