Megascale Movement and Perception

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

I guess I am missing something here, isnt this what buying megascale senses that can be scaled down is for?

 

for things like long range sensor arrays and such?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

I agree with the statement that megascaled senses don't work' date='not just in game terms but also in genre terms,as whenever characters are shown moving at superspeed,the SFX is that of having bought Rapid Senses for the Sight and Hearing Sense Groups.[/quote']

 

Your definition of Rapid Sense is then giving it the defacto ability of Rapid REACTION which under current rules is covered by the SPEED characteristic. Also, If Rapid Sense is the way to go why are fighter pilots screened for distance vision above all else?

 

Requiring Megascaled Senses for the purposes of seeing when moving at Megascaled speeds is no more of a rule breaker than the current Healing and Regeneration (with no body cap) rules. Some people argue that rule too but it's still an 'official' rule. Use of Megasenses also keeps characters from buying an extreme amount of Megascale movement in an otherwise cheap Multipower slot unless they have an appropriate Megascale Sense outside of the Multipower.

 

HM

[zornwil]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

I've always viewed powers as reasonably self-contained to execute effectively, and given that one buys an effect and not the SFX I tend to feel the system supports that model. Hence I think requiring a megascaled sense for a character to simply do megascaled movement is wrong. As stated above, for the character to see details while moving or far out in general should indeed require a megascaled sense, but forcing another power to execute the effect of a power is something I think we should mostly be staying away from in the game.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

I've always viewed powers as reasonably self-contained to execute effectively' date=' and given that one buys an effect and not the SFX I tend to feel the system supports that model. Hence I think requiring a megascaled sense for a character to simply do megascaled movement is wrong. As stated above, for the character to see details while moving or far out in general should indeed require a megascaled sense, but forcing another power to execute the effect of a power is something I think we should mostly be staying away from in the game.[/quote']

I completely agree, and have decided that this is how I'm gonna handle this, at least with basic (read as not Limited) Megascale movement.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

I've always viewed powers as reasonably self-contained to execute effectively' date=' and given that one buys an effect and not the SFX I tend to feel the system supports that model. Hence I think requiring a megascaled sense for a character to simply do megascaled movement is wrong. As stated above, for the character to see details while moving or far out in general should indeed require a megascaled sense, but forcing another power to execute the effect of a power is something I think we should mostly be staying away from in the game.[/quote']Let me clarify my view a little more.

 

If a player just wants their character to have the ability to reach supersonic+ speeds via flight but not necessarily have super manueverability at such speeds (think someone like Green Lantern) I would not absolutely require Megascale sight. I would point out the hazards of moving at such speeds would be equivalent to overdriving your headlights* and suggest they take this into consideration (Green Lantern's ring might alternatively provide a limited proximity Danger Sense and/or Desolidification in some versions). I would also point out the dangers of 'flying-blind' in combination with a disadvantage like Unluck.

 

But, if a player wants a genre-classic Flash/Quicksilver speedster with the ability to use near supersonic or greater speeds in a somewhat confined environment (the ground and all it's obsticals) I would require they stat out some way to deal with obstacles in their foot-path (which would be many).

 

*Overdriving headlights means your stopping distance is greater than the distance lighted by your lights.

HM

[Guest C--]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

But, if a player wants a genre-classic Flash/Quicksilver speedster with the ability to use near supersonic or greater speeds in a somewhat confined environment (the ground and all it's obsticals) I would require they stat out some way to deal with obstacles in their foot-path (which would be many).

 

*Overdriving headlights means your stopping distance is greater than the distance lighted by your lights.

HM

 

Let me clarify my view. You're adding restrictions that aren't in the game rules. If I buy movement, there's nothing at all in the rules that says I have to buy anything else to let me move. That's covered by buying movement at 2 points per inch. You're paying points for usefulness here, not a specific power. I don't have to buy Armor to protect me when I fly through the air, because friction isn't taken into account according to the game rules.

 

Megascaled senses don't work. They don't do what you seem to think they do. It's like the retarded USPD writeup of a safe teleport, where they bought Armor, only to protect against blind teleport damage. It's like, "oh, that's nice, except that a blind teleport is NND damage, and no amount of armor will protect you at all". It's like buying a 20D6 Energy Blast, "only to make flowers grow". Energy Blast doesn't do that, no matter how many power modifiers you put on it. I can apply megascale to Desolidification, but it isn't gonna do anything. Neither will putting megascale on your senses.

 

I think you're adding restrictions and complications to megascaled movement that do not exist according to the rules, and you're doing it solely to increase the costs of something that is really just a plot-device/utility power. This serves no purpose except to make something more expensive than it needs to be. Plus, the "solution" you offer does not function as you think it does.

[Guest C--]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

Your definition of Rapid Sense is then giving it the defacto ability of Rapid REACTION which under current rules is covered by the SPEED characteristic. Also' date=' If Rapid Sense is the way to go why are fighter pilots screened for distance vision above all else?[/quote']

 

Rapid senses serves no purpose in 5th edition. I understand the concept, but there is no game purpose for buying them.

 

Fighter pilots are screened for distance vision because they need to be able to visually identify markings on enemy (and friendly) aircraft. They don't have to react at superspeed.

 

Requiring Megascaled Senses for the purposes of seeing when moving at Megascaled speeds is no more of a rule breaker than the current Healing and Regeneration (with no body cap) rules. Some people argue that rule too but it's still an 'official' rule. Use of Megasenses also keeps characters from buying an extreme amount of Megascale movement in an otherwise cheap Multipower slot unless they have an appropriate Megascale Sense outside of the Multipower.

 

HM

 

Megascaled senses are not an official power construct like Healing and Regeneration. You're basically saying "that power isn't legal either".

[Bloodstone]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

Megascaled senses are not an official power construct like Healing and Regeneration.

 

Actually, they are now.

 

5er, p264 "Percieving where you're going"

 

Mind you, I still favor handwaiving it.

[Guest C--]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

Actually, they are now.

 

5er, p264 "Percieving where you're going"

 

Mind you, I still favor handwaiving it.

 

Eh. I don't have revised. And I should have been more precise anyway--they're official, but everything I've seen on them is only for long-range sensors (i.e., "Keptin, de enemy wessel is approachink.")

[Bloodstone]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

Eh. I don't have revised. And I should have been more precise anyway--they're official' date=' but everything I've seen on them is only for long-range sensors (i.e., "Keptin, de enemy wessel is approachink.")[/quote']

 

Ah. Well let me clarify that in 5er the example they use is of Kinetik needing this because his Overdrive Running (Written up as MegaScaled Flight with "Only in Contact with a Surface).

 

So while you can use MegaSenses for a Star Ships long range senseors, the party line is that Speedsters need this sort of thing too, least they end up killing them selves via involuntary Move Through on random Buildings of Opportuinity...

[Guest C--]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

Ah. Well let me clarify that in 5er the example they use is of Kinetik needing this because his Overdrive Running (Written up as MegaScaled Flight with "Only in Contact with a Surface).

 

So while you can use MegaSenses for a Star Ships long range senseors, the party line is that Speedsters need this sort of thing too, least they end up killing them selves via involuntary Move Through on random Buildings of Opportuinity...

 

Yeah, well, the party line sucks. And the power still doesn't work that way.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

I think you're adding restrictions and complications to megascaled movement that do not exist according to the rules' date=' and you're doing it solely to increase the costs of something that is really just a plot-device/utility power. This serves no purpose except to make something more expensive than it needs to be. Plus, the "solution" you offer does not function as you think it does.[/quote']

I believe in 5E they mention somewhere that you'd better be careful about using MegaMovement if you don't have the appropriate MegaSenses. Also they say something about the wisdom of using MegaScaled Flight too close to the ground....

[prestidigitator]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

Rapid senses serves no purpose in 5th edition. I understand the concept' date=' but there is no game purpose for buying them.[/quote']

They might not serve any purpose in this context, but they can certainly serve a purpose. For example: speed-reading through a dictionary to learn a new language; going through a phonebook to find who has the number you just found scribbled on a bathroom stall (without a reverse directory); listening to an audio tape of ten days worth of phone calls played back at 1000 times normal speed to find the conversation you are interested in. They aren't uses that will crop up all the time, but they can be used creatively to great avail.

[pinecone]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

One more thing in 5er is that for every "level" of differance between your mega sense and your mega-move you take a -1 per/level so my Daximite Galactic Champs character has Flight 5" Scalable,REnd,+4 Megascale move and bought Megascale for sight and +15 Sight, only for mega-navigating -1/2 and it's only 25 points to see where I'm going, and I can spot stuff in orbit just fine...its weaselly but they drove me to it!... so I'd consider taking -1 Per for "basic" mega-running to be fine...."I'm mega-running!" "OK, make a Per roll each phase to avoid becomming road kill.."

[Guest C--]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

They might not serve any purpose in this context' date=' but they can certainly serve a purpose. For example: speed-reading through a dictionary to learn a new language; going through a phonebook to find who has the number you just found scribbled on a bathroom stall (without a reverse directory); listening to an audio tape of ten days worth of phone calls played back at 1000 times normal speed to find the conversation you are interested in. They aren't uses that will crop up all the time, but they can be used creatively to great avail.[/quote']

 

Yes, but the game defines no base level of sense input. How fast can you read through the phone book without rapid sense? These are all extremely subjective. Hence, I'm not a huge fan of rapid sense.

[Guest C--]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

One more thing in 5er is that for every "level" of differance between your mega sense and your mega-move you take a -1 per/level so my Daximite Galactic Champs character has Flight 5" Scalable' date='REnd,+4 Megascale move and bought Megascale for sight and +15 Sight, only for mega-navigating -1/2 and it's only 25 points to see where I'm going, and I can spot stuff in orbit just fine...its weaselly but they drove me to it!... so I'd consider taking -1 Per for "basic" mega-running to be fine...."I'm mega-running!" "OK, make a Per roll each phase to avoid becomming road kill.."[/quote']

 

It's still forcing you to pay points for something you should be able to do anyway. Steve Long in action!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

Yes' date=' but the game defines no base level of sense input. How fast can you read through the phone book without rapid sense? These are all extremely subjective. Hence, I'm not a huge fan of rapid sense.[/quote']

 

How much does speed reading cost? A character with this and eidetic memory is, as I recall able to memorize "as fast as he can turn the pages"

[Bloodstone]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

How much does speed reading cost?

 

4pts for X10 (base level), +2 per x10 beyond that.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

How much does speed reading cost? A character with this and eidetic memory is' date=' as I recall able to memorize "as fast as he can turn the pages"[/quote']

No. Eidetic Memory simply allows you to recall perfectly something you are able to study and memorize. It still may take you some time to actually commit it to memory.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

Yes' date=' but the game defines no base level of sense input. How fast can you read through the phone book without rapid sense? These are all extremely subjective. Hence, I'm not a huge fan of rapid sense.[/quote']

While the actual length of time is subjective, we are talking about orders of magnitude here. Would you say it takes minutes, tens of seconds, seconds, or tenths of seconds to read a page of a phonebook? It may depend on what you are looking for, whether the number has a common prefix, etc., but why not try it? Open up a phonebook yourself. Differences in speed between normal individuals could be in the neighborhood of 50-100%, but they aren't going to be near 1000%, which is what Rapid senses give you.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

No. Eidetic Memory simply allows you to recall perfectly something you are able to study and memorize. It still may take you some time to actually commit it to memory.

 

My statement was taken directly from a rules book, though likely pre-5e. Eidetic meory + speed reading was explicitly defined to mean you can memorize as fast as you can turn the pages.

 

The classic photographic memory remembers everything, and does not require study time, BTW. Seems to me it would have its good and bad features (great when studying history, for example, but lousy when you'd like to ejoy re-reading a novel or watching a favorite movie again).

[Vondy]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

I'm really wary of mega-scale as written. Not because it can be abused (Nancy Reagan is my Gamemastering role model when people try to abuse the rules), but because, as written, it leads to wonky constructs and has a number of mechanical safeguards built in that lead to logical inconsistencies and threads like this. As a result, I've pretty much stolen the FUSION rule for supersonic flight. 10 Points = 1 Mach. I'm considering making it an adder to normal flight (Supersonic Mode: +5 or +10 Points Per Mach). I like the idea of recuding non-combat doublings as well.

[Vondy]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

 

The classic photographic memory remembers everything, and does not require study time, BTW. Seems to me it would have its good and bad features (great when studying history, for example, but lousy when you'd like to ejoy re-reading a novel or watching a favorite movie again).

 

People with classic photographic memory have regularly exibited difficulty unlearning bad information, or reconciling it with newly-learned good information, and are often routine or "normalcy" dependent.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

People with classic photographic memory have regularly exibited difficulty unlearning bad information' date=' or reconciling it with newly-learned good information, and are often routine or "normalcy" dependent.[/quote']

 

I'm certainly no expert on photgraphic memory, but this would seem to be a logical result. You can remember book A which says "This is black" and Book B which says "This is white", but with no actual experience, you don't know which is correct. Imagine someone who knew absolutely everything posted on the Internet, but lacked any real life experience or judgement to separate fact from fallacy or fiction.

 

He knows the Flat Earthers say the moon landings were fake and NASA says they are real. But he can only apply his own judgement to assess who is correct.

[zornwil]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

People with classic photographic memory have regularly exibited difficulty unlearning bad information' date=' or reconciling it with newly-learned good information, and are often routine or "normalcy" dependent.[/quote']

As Hugh says, it makes sense, but I never knew that, thanks much for that tidbit.

 

As to your comment on megascale, I more or less agree. I think one general issue in HERO is that as "dangerous" (easily abusable) components get introduced there is often a perceived need to hamper those with artificial rules to constrict them rather than simply give a warning and let the chips fall where they may. One of the biggest problems with these artificial restrictions is they often break the fundamental rules or metarules preexisting in the system. I think this megasense/megamovement issue is one of those examples, as no one has ever suggested that (for example) running at ridiculous speeds (without megascale) requires increased perception and as that indicates throughout the system it is not normal to require a different power to make one power work "as is". I do think that Megascale is an appropriate and positive enhancement to the system, but it may be an ongoing annoyance in implementation as a few other components have been.