Megascale Movement and Perception

[prestidigitator]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

Well, you wouldn't, but I'm pretty sure that's what it says in the book.

 

My objection here is that, if you have 'incredibly fast non-combat flight, however it might have been built' and you've got away with no turn mode or acceleration/deceleration, I'd have no problem with you zipping from here to the wall at the end of the corridor and back at something like light speed.

It may have been added in 5ER, but in 5E there was no Advantage that removed the Turn Mode of a Movement Power that normally has one (although there is the opposite: giving a Movement Power a Turn Mode when it doesn't normally have one). Instead, you use Movement Skill Levels to give you a better Turn Mode.

 

BTW, Running does gain a Turn Mode when you use it Non-Combat. I am absolutely positive of that, though I can't site a page number ATM.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

As regards the megascale sight thing' date=' the rules are that it doesn't work within its minimum range - so if you have 1" = 1km, you can't [b']effectively [/b] see anything closer than 1km. Your analysis is a good one but forgets the Space Monkey Effect: a tiny movement translated over a great distance equals a large movement at the other end. This means that, if you are looking through a telescope, a small movement might bring the moon into focus: it is a huge object, but try and focus on something across the street and you'll find the telescope swings past the target several times before you can home in on it. You may be IN FACT able to focus on a brick in the house across the road, but if you move at all then it whizzes out of your viewfinder. It is not so much a problem of actually being able to see somethin but the ability to focus ON a particular object: you are not, in practice able to access your normal full field of vision when using magnification.

 

If you had all the time in the world then sure you can focus on stuff nearby: you just are not going to see it because your field of vision has become a tiny cone not a 120 degree arc anymore.

I have forgotten nothing at all. Who says that MegaScale gives you a decreased angle of perception? That sounds like a Side Effect of magnifying devices to me. Telescopic, for example, just cancels Range Penalties to a sense; it doesn't give you any kind of game drawbacks due to a decreased view angle.

 

I'm not sure treating MegaScaled senses exactly like other MegaScaled range is entirely right. Senses just don't act like normal ranged Attack Powers. For one thing, you can sense lots of stuff at once, not just something in one hex at a time. I would be more inclined to treat Sight, for example, as something closer to a Conical Explosion than a normal ranged Power.

[Warp9]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

BTW, Running does gain a Turn Mode when you use it Non-Combat. I am absolutely positive of that, though I can't site a page number ATM.

Once you get a place where you have access to the Book I'd like a page number on that. . . .

 

on edit: I'm not saying that it does not make sense, I just can't find it (I don't have revised so it may be in there). I'd also like to know if it follows the exact pattern as non-combat flight (2 evenly spaced turns per move). It seems that if running is more manuverable than flight in combat, it should also be more manuverable than flight out of combat as well.

[OddHat]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

I agree with you on just about everything else. And you are perfectly justified in not liking the advantage. However, if you just make normal non combat multipliers cheaper (like +X2 for 2 points that was suggested earlier) you run the risk of letting non-speedsters encroach on the speedster schtick too easily from a points perspective.

 

HM

 

You can always protect your Speedster's schtick by saying "Only one character can have Super-Speed related powers (including Time Manipulation Frank, so sit down). As far as movement is concerned, that means only the speedster gets to buy over X" of combat movement, and only that character can have over X" of non-combat movement." This is pretty much what I do in my FtF games.

 

I generally don't see point costs as a way to keep schtick's separate. With the number of build approaches available to get almost any power cheaply, it's easier to just make a campaign decision that every character gets to shine in his own schtick.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

Once you get a place where you have access to the Book I'd like a page number on that. . . .

 

on edit: I'm not saying that it does not make sense, I just can't find it (I don't have revised so it may be in there). I'd also like to know if it follows the exact pattern as non-combat flight (2 evenly spaced turns per move). It seems that if running is more manuverable than flight in combat, it should also be more manuverable than flight out of combat as well.

I don't have 5ER either. I know it's in 5E somewhere. I'll take a look when I can. I believe the answer to whether it is more maneuverable than any other Movement Power with a Turn Mode at Non-Combat Velocity is, "no." From what I recall, Running just, "gains a Turn Mode," at Non-Combat Velocity, and is treated from that point as any movement with a Turn Mode.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

I don't have 5ER either. I know it's in 5E somewhere. I'll take a look when I can. I believe the answer to whether it is more maneuverable than any other Movement Power with a Turn Mode at Non-Combat Velocity is' date=' "no." From what I recall, Running just, "gains a Turn Mode," at Non-Combat Velocity, and is treated from that point as any movement with a Turn Mode.[/quote']

 

The relevant pages are:

5E pages 237-240

5ER pages 363-367

 

As far as I can tell, no wording was changed between 5E and 5ER here.

 

Turn Modes are only referenced for "Powered Movement" which includes Flight, Gliding, Swinging, Teleportatioin and Tunneling. The only mention of Turn Modes for Running is in reference to the "GM may require it if the footing is especially treacherous".

 

That sounds like a judgement call, not a hard and fast rule.

 

Under the section for Noncombat Movement it states that "a character using Noncombat Movement can still fight, but at the lowered (OCV+DCV) values." NO mention of turn modes is made here either.

 

HM

[Dust Raven]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

To clarify, I view this as the full +1/2 advantage on flight - he had +1/4 worth of advantages to choose form as a result. Your comments indicate you think I'm talking about the reduced advantage. How many advantages are practical on Flight at +1/4? Off the top, I see Megascale and 1/2 END. I believe the Turn Mode and Acceleration/Deceleration advantages require +1/2, but maybe there's something in there. Usable by another (instead of you) in theopry, but I'd deny it in practice since, by swapping the advantage, , you effectively have "usable by self or one other".

 

Given this limited selection, I don't see a big issue allowing the character to modulate their Megascale - especially since any Megascale flight means noncombat movement, so it's only likely to be used for rapid transit.

 

Given that you are using all of the advantage available to you, you shouldn't get a bonus for having so few. But you didn't, nor did I assume you did. I still think it's pure cheese to allow any incriment of MegaScale. I might allow it if all you could take was MegaScale, and bought the Advantage at the full +1/2 value for a variable +1/4. You get a lot of flexibility for that +1/4 for any incriment of MegaScale.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

Are y'all sure MegaScaled movement is Non-Combat?

5E page 170.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

(From FREd page 170, 3rd paragraph down)

 

MegaMovement is considered Noncombat Movement even though the MegaScale effect applies only to the character's inches of Combat Movement.

 

Tee-hee.. never mind .

[Dust Raven]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

BTW' date=' Running [i']does[/i] gain a Turn Mode when you use it Non-Combat. I am absolutely positive of that, though I can't site a page number ATM.

 

I'm fairly certain Running has no Turn Mode when non-combat. You have just as much freedom as you do in combat.

 

Of course, when you go to MegaScale, there the illusion of a Turn Mode. When you can change direction in any hex, you are still moving a few km over to turn around. Granted, you could technically turn around in the same hex (which is a km wide) and run back the way you came.

 

The thing I like to keep into account is rules for obsticles. Anythig that in your hex can be an obsticle. How much of the hex it covers and how tall it is compared to the character determine how much of an obsticle. If you are approaching a clif with a 6m (3 hex) fissure running through it, and you want to run straight through and continue on the other side... all you got to do is miss the cliff. If you are moving MegaScale, your hex is approximately 1km (an estimate, since you can have a higher level of megascale, or define the hex as being less than 1 km). There are 500 hexes in a km, and you are aiming for an area of 3 of them. What do you think your chances of success are?

 

What powers/senses do you think you'll need to improve those chances?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

I'm fairly certain Running has no Turn Mode when non-combat. You have just as much freedom as you do in combat.

I'm gonig to dig through my book this evening. I could have sworn it had a Turn Mode for Non-Combat in 4th Edition at least. Has it changed, perhaps?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

I'm fairly certain Running has no Turn Mode when non-combat. You have just as much freedom as you do in combat.

 

Of course, when you go to MegaScale, there the illusion of a Turn Mode. When you can change direction in any hex, you are still moving a few km over to turn around. Granted, you could technically turn around in the same hex (which is a km wide) and run back the way you came.

 

The thing I like to keep into account is rules for obsticles. Anythig that in your hex can be an obsticle. How much of the hex it covers and how tall it is compared to the character determine how much of an obsticle. If you are approaching a clif with a 6m (3 hex) fissure running through it, and you want to run straight through and continue on the other side... all you got to do is miss the cliff. If you are moving MegaScale, your hex is approximately 1km (an estimate, since you can have a higher level of megascale, or define the hex as being less than 1 km). There are 500 hexes in a km, and you are aiming for an area of 3 of them. What do you think your chances of success are?

 

What powers/senses do you think you'll need to improve those chances?

 

I used to make this mistake as well.

 

The rules for running state: "Running has no Turn Mode; a character can turn as often as he wants when Running."

 

If adding Megascale to Running does not give it a Turn Mode (and nothing I have found suggests this), then nothing changes with regard to how many turns a Running character can make.

 

I agree that a character using Flight with Megascale would be taking 1km or larger turns unless the Flight also had No Turn Mode as an advantage in which case the character would have no restrictions on number of turns just as Running.

 

The ONLY limiting factor imposed by the Power Advantage Megascale is the minimum effect of what 1" actually means (usually 1km). In the case of movement it means that a character with Megascale movement will move a minimum of 500" when he uses that power.

 

Because of that I would encourage players that want speedsters with megascale level movement to buy a multipower with a minimum of 2 slots:

1. Megascale Movement.
   
2. Combat Movement with Increased doublings for normal Non-Combat Movement >/= 500"*.
   
   • 5" movement with an additional +X64 Non Combat multiple (5x128=640 which is > 500*).
     
   • 20" movement with an addtional +X16 Non Combat multiple (20x32=640...*).
     

Three distinct slots is preferrable if the player wants to maximize their combat only movement but it is not necessary.

 

 

HM

[Wanderer]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

ECs being overused is another hobby-horse of mine

 

Even so a 3/4 advantage means that your maximum combat speed is less than .6 of the guy who doesn't take it: in the example you give 25" against up to 44" (a difference, on a movethrough, of 7 dice). Even if you stick it in a multipower of 74 points you get 25" against 37" = a difference of 4d6 on a move through - not to be neglected if opponents may have 40+ PD force fields...meanwhile in the other slot of the multipower, can fly anywhere between 10 times as fast and lightspeed....

 

Neither approach is 'right', but I'm not convinced that variable advantage is a particularly useful way of doing movement powers.

 

Your reasoning has merit, as it has mine. Generalizing just a bit, we might say that VA Megascale may be the best choice for "planetary" Megascale Flight (up to a couple levels of the Advantage), whereas MP slot Megascale may be most appropriate for higher levels: in most cases, VA is only really manageable up to +1/2 Advantages.

 

Or one might combine both approaches: interplanetary/interstellar Megascale Flight/Teleportation, like FTL and EDM, only really fined use in play as "gimmick" (I can instantly move from my cool Moon/Mars/Titan base to wherver I'm needed) or "plot hook" (this week's menace comes from XXV° Dimension/Eta Carinae III, so there we go), not as a mix of "combat" and "plot hook" uses like planetary Megascale. So one might have "planetary" Megascale in a Variable Advantage Flight ("I can go round the Earth in 10 minutes") and "interstellar" one in a separate MP, perhaps loaded with some Limitations: typically, Focus:"my stellar Ring lets me teleport anywhere in the Galaxy", such as:

 

Cosmic Travel Armbands: Multipower, 50-point reserve, (50 Active Points); all slots Independent (-2), Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), Only to Activate, -3/4), OIF Unbreakable (-1/2), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)

 

1) FTL Flight: FTL Travel (2 Light Years/minute) (50 Active Points); Independent (-2), Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), Only to Activate, -3/4), Costs Endurance (-1/2), OIF Unbreakable (-1/2), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)

 

2) Dimensional Movement: Extra-Dimensional Movement (Any Dimension, Any Location) (45 Active Points); Independent (-2), Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), Only to Activate, -3/4), OIF Unbreakable (-1/2), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)

 

3) Teleportation: Teleportation 4", No Relative Velocity, MegaScale (1" = 100.000 km; +1 1/2), Can Be Scaled Down 1" = 1km (+1/4) (49 Active Points); Independent (-2), Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), Only to Activate, -3/4), OIF Unbreakable (-1/2), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)

 

As for getting more dice of Flight for move through, yes in that case a Flight MP is more efficient: it lies down to what one cares more about, saving a bit from putting Flight in a EC, in which case VA gets unvaluable for keeping some tactical flexibility for the power, such as switching from "energy saving" (reduced End) mode, to "flying saucer" hypermobility (No Turn Mode/Combat Acceleration/Deceleration) to "intercontinental" (Megascale), and/or maybe All-terrain (Usable Underwater). If one cares more about getting the maximum movethrough oomph, then the above become MP slots, and then one can add an "interplanetary" (higher level Megascale) or even "interstellar" (FTL or really-Megascale Teleportation, though the latter is troublesome because of AP limits) modes.

 

And come on, Flight in a EC is plain vanilla: if one cannot dump one's Flight and Force Field in it, what an EC is good for ?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

I was just thinking, and wasn't there a Power called Supersonic Flight that cost 10 points per level of mach speed (or each increment of 750 MPH) you could fly? I remember seeing somthing like that back when Metacreator/Hero Creator was used as the character creation software for the Hero System. What happened to that and why couldn't something like that be used for simulating those really fast characters when they aren't actually doing anything that relates to combat (as in, they are just moving really fast)?

 

I suppose we still need MegaScale for things like MegaArea and MegaRange, so we might as well have MegaMovement, but does anyone use something like Supersonic Flight/Movement in 5th edition?

[Southern Cross]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

Supersonic Flight originally came from Fuzion,so I'm not suprised it wasn't included in Fifth Edition.

[lemming]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

I was just thinking, and wasn't there a Power called Supersonic Flight that cost 10 points per level of mach speed (or each increment of 750 MPH) you could fly? I remember seeing somthing like that back when Metacreator/Hero Creator was used as the character creation software for the Hero System. What happened to that and why couldn't something like that be used for simulating those really fast characters when they aren't actually doing anything that relates to combat (as in, they are just moving really fast)?

 

I suppose we still need MegaScale for things like MegaArea and MegaRange, so we might as well have MegaMovement, but does anyone use something like Supersonic Flight/Movement in 5th edition?

That was done in Metacreator in anticipation of what 5th Edition would look like under the old management. At least that's how I remember it.

 

I think the current advantage works fine, but I could see someone costing it out as a "new" power.

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

I like to interpret this more as "you're unable to do more than see obstacles in time to avoid them", so you don't recognize your Aunt Petunia in Los Angeles as you pass through at 18,000 kph.

 

 

 

COnsidering Megascale on my sight is only +1/4 (add for higher megascale advantages) I'm inclined to agree. Mind you, you could Link your Telescopic with theMovement (-1/2) and limit it to "Only allows avoiding obstacles" (say -1) which gets it down to 18 points.

 

Mind you, tjose limitations cold logically also apply to the naked modifier.

 

I'm inclined to see this as to much realism, however. We don't make the guy who flies at 10,000 kph buy "LS: Immune to Frisction and Air Pressure", so why should he have to pay for the ability to avoid obstacles in flight? Seems to me powers should come with enough ability that they can be used functionally.

 

depends on the sense etc

most of my modern/sf vehicles have whats amount to terrain following radar for just that purpose

[prestidigitator]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

Okay. I guess I was just totally delusional or something. I went through both my 4th and 5th ed. books pretty thoroughly, and could find nothing about Running acquiring a Turn Mode when used at Non-Combat Velocities. Maybe I just decided in three seconds that it would be a definite House Rule of mine when I read through at some point.

 

P.S.: Posted a couple questions to Steve Long so that maybe I can get a little closure.

[zornwil]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

Or we could resist the urge to pointlesly stat out every frickin' in-genre or SFX linked "that's just how it works" ability.

 

So, how do you build a box of tissues in Hero?

I'm surprised the boards didn't shut down, isn't that like when Captain Kirk tells a computer to compute pi to the last digit?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

I'm surprised the boards didn't shut down' date=' isn't that like when Captain Kirk tells a computer to compute pi to the last digit? [/quote']

No. Computers are workhorses by design. We, on the other hand, tend to be lazy beyond belief (though I have been somewhat surprised of late).

[pinecone]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

Box of kleenex....LS:Snot and related problems, CBM, Fuel charge of aroud a 100 "incidents"......Plus change enviro:clean up small area:Long lasting.......maybe a multi power?....I also posted a thread about mega sight and mega move....was it after this one 'cause I don't remember seeing this one before.....

[zornwil]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

Box of kleenex....LS:Snot and related problems' date=' CBM, Fuel charge of aroud a 100 "incidents"......Plus change enviro:clean up small area:Long lasting.......maybe a multi power?....I also posted a thread about mega sight and mega move....was it after this one 'cause I don't remember seeing this one before.....[/quote']

What if you use it to wrap something in? Or what if you use it to make a note? Or what if you...

 

...here lies INSANITY!!!! Don't give me your hand-waving and VPP tactics!

[pinecone]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

What if you use it to wrap something in? Or what if you use it to make a note? Or what if you...

 

...here lies INSANITY!!!! Don't give me your hand-waving and VPP tactics!

OK ...it's a Biiig multi power....

[Guest C--]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

A few comments:

 

1) If I have 10" megascaled movement, 1"=1km, I can move any distance I choose beyond 500 hexes. I can move 501. I can move 4,978. I can move 3,391. I must simply move one complete mega-hex. Beyond that, I have perfect control. Since I've "scaled up" the size of the hexes, I can end my movement at any point inside any of the hexes past the first. So, I travel 10 megahexes forward. My final destination point is 4987 hexes forward and 145 to the side. As long as I stay within the megahexes, I can move around as much as I desire. I can zig-zag, I can hopscotch, I can twirl and dance, I can even moonwalk. The only important thing is that I began in megahex A and ended in megahex B. Which exact regular hexes I passed through are not important.

 

2) Megasenses do not work. You cannot operate at distances less than one megahex. Thus, you cannot perceive anything at a distance less than one level of megascale. There is nothing within the rules which magically grants megasenses that ability. Rapid-sense is closer to what you want, though it still doesn't matter, since with mega-movement I merely begin in mega-hex A and end in mega-hex B. Nothing within the rules states that I need to buy anything to avoid objects.

 

3) The purpose of megascale is to get places quickly. It is inexpensive because it's a plot-device power. If there's a bomb in Tokyo, and you've got to defuse it in 6 minutes, either you can get there, or you can't. If the GM is running a game where the players can't fly and have no super-movement, then his plot about the Tokyo bomb just won't work.

 

GM: "Okay, Spider-Man, you failed to stop the bomb from exploding in Tokyo."

Player: "But... I don't even speak Japanese. I never even heard about the bomb. And I can't fly. I just swing around on buildings."

GM: "Well, you should feel bad. Those people were counting on you."

Player: (looks around, finds shovel) KRANG! "You don't get to run the game anymore, cockbite!"

 

Megascale movement is costed so that players can make it to distant locations quickly. If you don't allow megascale movement, the only thing that will happen is that your players don't go to far off lands.

 

4) If I want to properly simulate The Flash, I buy the base unit of megascale as 1"=50". I then give him lots levels of megascale (1"=10k km or so) and the scaleable megascaled advantage. That lets him use his megascale at a fairly low level to do things like Dive for Cover out of friggin' huge AE attacks.

[Southern Cross]

Re: Megascale Movement and Perception

 

I agree with the statement that megascaled senses don't work,not just in game terms but also in genre terms,as whenever characters are shown moving at superspeed,the SFX is that of having bought Rapid Senses for the Sight and Hearing Sense Groups.