Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

[Raizer]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

While I for one am no expert on the subject I personally view Independant as the next logical extention to the Expendability part of a focus. Difficult...Very Difficult...Extremely Difficult, then Independent. So the only ruling I as a GM would make is you can't have expendability on a Focus you are making Independent. No problem on that front if it made sense and you really wanted Independent.

 

The only question I would raise, not being a Captain America storyline expert, is if Captain America used any other equipment during his quest to recover the focus? Basically was he using other non-standard gear during his time without The Shield during his adventures/quest to recover the Shield? (other shields, guns, whatever). If so I would personally avoid Independent and just stick with Extremely Difficult to recover as I would interpret that as him temporarily spending his points in the missing shield elsewhere.

 

Raizer

 

PS: Thanks for the thread. Its been an interesting read on all sides.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Cap, at ~300lbs of solid muscle and 6'4"-6'6" (makes me think of a WWF regular.), is literally more then twice the man of the average 5'4"-5'6" Elizabethan male, and pretty close to that for average 21st American males.

 

For Cap, his shield is equivalent to a medieval round shield (a style of medium shield), like that in _Masters of Defense_, albeit made of +solid metal+ (which most shields meant to be moved were not historically because a) metal was too dear and they would have been too heavy). For the average person 1/2 to 2/3 his body weight and considerably less his muscle mass as well as significantly shorter, Cap's Shield -is- definitely a "large shield".

I would have sized Cap as about 240 lbs.; not over 300. I'm 6' 3" and not in great shape, but I still weigh only 230 pounds. Traditional shields were made of laminated wood with metal and/or leather reinforcement, but they were certainly not particularly light. I'd say Cap's shield is between 2½ and 3 feet in diameter.

 

The Str min on a Med shield is 13. I think we can agree the average medieval knight has at least a 13 Str? Oh, and what Kingdom and Shire were you in?

Agreed on the STR. They were shorter than we are, but still professional fighters.

 

Outlands; Citadel of the Southern Pass (Barony). I was a herald rather than a stick jock, but most of the household I was in were fighters.

 

This is one where the source material is conflicted. There are incidents of normals like Bucky carrying The Shield and definitely being Encumbered. OTOH, there's material stating how "marvelously light for its size and composition it is." Regardless of what the truth is, it's VERY clear that Cap can carry The Shield for days at a time without sleep, remaining combat effective with it the entire time.

Bucky was still a teenager; I'd be surprised if he had a STR higher than 10 or 12. Light to an adult male with superhuman STR may still be heavy to a 16 year old. But since it's made of indestructible material, there's no reason for it to be thick in the first place. Adamantium the thickness of typing paper would stop a bullet, and Cap's shield was acknowledged to be far superior to pure adamantium. My impression, from many years of reading Captain America comics, was of a thicker edge (Perhaps 1/4" or 3/8") to help carry and throw it with a rather thin central portion. My guess is the shield is less than an eighth of an inch thick through most of its body, and hence no heavier than a wooden shield of more traditional construction.

 

Threading a middle path between the extremes in the source material implies Cap might have a 25-30 Str and the Shield a Str min of 13-15, which would let Cap carry The Shield with Casual Str. Meaning essentially forever and unencumbered for Cap, but noticably heavy for most anyone else. That's a compromise and like all compromises it has some problems.

Those numbers work for me, although I think a 10 STR would be enough to use it at a penalty. But you're right; clearly Cap can use it with casual STR.

[DangerousDan]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

=A STRICT reading of Focus implies that any Focus of an Instant Power should cease to be operational if the character falls unconscious or is dead unless the character has bought Persistent for the Focus. ALMOST NO ONE ENFORCES THIS for Universal Foci even though it is clear in the rules. Independent is equally clear that it does work if the character is unconscious or dead.

 

Could you perhaps be thinking of a Constant power? An instant power is just that, instant. It is on, then it is off.

 

(Silly thought: one person makes all of the UF weapons used by a team. The weapons are neither Persistant nor Independent. That person goes to sleep. None of the team's weapons work... )

(Defense against character "powering themself up" by borrowing Universal Foci from their friends: Stun or Kill the now easier to squish owner(s) of said Foci. Only the Foci with Persistant or Independent will continue to work.)

Nothing wrong with that scenario. Focus-Maker uses his knowledge of the mystic arts to activate the foci through spells, which he then passes out to his team-mates. Later, he is knocked unconscious, and no longer able to keep the spells active. The foci turn off.

 

Now if the devices that GunSmith hands out do the same thing--that is an error in construction, and GunSmith's player needs a tune-up.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Now if the devices that GunSmith hands out do the same thing--that is an error in construction' date=' and GunSmith's player needs a tune-up. [/quote']

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

While I for one am no expert on the subject I personally view Independant as the next logical extention to the Expendability part of a focus. Difficult...Very Difficult...Extremely Difficult' date=' then Independent. So the only ruling I as a GM would make is you can't have expendability on a Focus you are making Independent. No problem on that front if it made sense and you really wanted Independent.[/quote']

SOME OF THE FOLLOWING HOUSE RULES:

For me, there are two axis: How easy is it for someone else to use (Personal, Close Knit Group, Universal, Independent) and How difficult it is to replace (Easy, Difficult, Very Difficult, Extremely Difficult). There are examples of all 16 of these combinations in the literature.

 

This is independent of Expendability (although Independent, Extremely Difficult to replace Expendable items are a wierd class- usually foolish Rube Goldberg contraptions of a villain).

 

Independant, Extremely Difficult to replace items all tend strongly to be items of Legend: The Grail, The Rock of Medina, Excalibur, Cap's Shield, etc.

 

I use both axis and give both Limitations because it makes sense (to me).

...and trust me, the players pay appropriately

 

The only question I would raise, not being a Captain America storyline expert, is if Captain America used any other equipment during his quest to recover the focus? Basically was he using other non-standard gear during his time without The Shield during his adventures/quest to recover the Shield? (other shields, guns, whatever). If so I would personally avoid Independent and just stick with Extremely Difficult to recover as I would interpret that as him temporarily spending his points in the missing shield elsewhere.

Good thought, and I agree (as I did with someone else who brought this up).

 

As usual, how Cap is actually "run" tends to depend on who is writing Cap at any point in time or for any particular story. I've seen story lines that fit both interpretations. The tie breakers for me was 1= how easy it was for super after super to use The Shield when they got their hands on it + how long / far away from Cap they could use it (years in a few cases) + how hard it was and how far Cap was willing to go to get it back; and 2= That there is no recipe for fixing or remaking The Shield (like The Grail, etc).

 

If someone steals my Universal Focus, and it's too much of a pain for me to recover the original, there's a recipe for making a new one (there has to be by the rules) that I can use to "get my Focus back" that solves the problem.

 

Not so with an Independent item. THAT you must recover or those XP are GONE. You could conceivably waste even more XP making a new Independent item with the same powers, but that very quickly turns into a losing proposition. Which is why mages are +very+ cautious about making Independent items and very careful keeping track of them afterward...

 

Given what happens in the comics, I want whoever is using The Shield to FEEL the responsibility and the plot tension that goes with it. I'm pretty sure a UF wouldn't accomplish that.

 

 

PS: Thanks for the thread. Its been an interesting read on all sides.

Thanks for saying something positive.

[Mentor]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Maybe, but you are completely in error if you think it takes Cap 'full body or almost full body motion' to use his shield.

 

If he were restrained to the point where he could fire a pistol, Cap could still throw his shield.

Because it is Cap (andthere fore I am biased ) I would allow it in a specific set of circumstances with many minuses. OTOH, Cap has a pretty good array of CSLs with all comabat and shield specific levels IMHO.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

No, but there is plenty of guidance and are plenty of examples so that there's a general feel for what in over doing, under doing, or just right. Universal Focus is in fact an exception in that it's WAY fuzzier than most of the other Modifier write ups.

 

 

We agree on this much.

 

 

...and now we get to The Rules to point out some other differences.

 

On Independent (p297 of FRed):

"This Limitation makes a Power unconnected to the character in any way. This has several effects: the Independent Power will work if the character is unconscious, dead, or across the world; the Independent Power can be used by any other character; and the points spent by the character on an Independent Power can be lost forever.

The primary use of the Independent Limitation is for making special items. ..."

 

I've quoted this exact thing in response to you already in this thread (post #96 Fox1, for those claiming I never referenced the rules).

 

NONE of those 'extras' are limiting factors. Indeed, they would seem to be BENEFITS.

 

The only LIMITING FACTOR is the fact that it can be lost for good. A -2 limitation is enough to make a power virtually worthless (No Conscious Control = occasional use, plot device only. 1 charge = most of the time, useless to you since either you can't or won't use it. Independent = you'll have it long enough for it to be cool, then it's gone).

 

In addition, I suggest you look at p294-295 on Unbreakable and Universal (quoting all three in the same post seems a wee much for "Fair Use" and I do not want to Infringe on DOJ's Copyright.)

 

Under "Unbreakable", it states that both a method for destroying and a method for repairing/replacing an Unbreakable Focus must be decided at creation time (without costing the character extra XPs naturally). Not so with an Independent item. If a Independant item is broken or lost, it is GONE.

 

Ways to repair/replace an "unbreakable" focus in a superhero game... Gee.

1) Time Travel

2) Godlike Power

3) Recreate it the way the first one was (just because it hasn't happened, doesn't mean it couldn't)

 

The Shield is not GONE. The Shield has been GONE temporarily; i.e. it has been repaired/replaced/relocated.

 

I've already noted that Universal is broken systems-wise. In stark contrast to the rest of the write-up of Foci, and that of Independent, Universal is a HUGE hand wave mechanics-wise:

=A STRICT reading of Focus implies that any Focus of an Instant Power

should cease to be operational if the character falls unconscious or is dead unless the character has bought Persistent for the Focus. ALMOST NO ONE ENFORCES THIS for Universal Foci even though it is clear in the rules. Independent is equally clear that it does work if the character is unconscious or dead.

(Silly thought: one person makes all of the UF weapons used by a team. The weapons are neither Persistant nor Independent. That person goes to sleep. None of the team's weapons work... )

(Defense against character "powering themself up" by borrowing Universal Foci from their friends: Stun or Kill the now easier to squish owner(s) of said Foci. Only the Foci with Persistant or Independent will continue to work.)

 

No, a strict reading of the rules does not say that. Universal Focus means that the Power can be used by anyone who picks up the Universal Focus. Thus, THEY (the person who picks it up) are the person using the power. Not the person who paid the points for it.

 

Universal is very simple. Only someone trying to bend, twist, and break the rules (or someone who failed a reading comprehension INT roll) should have "trouble" with it.

 

=The sentence "The advantage and disadvantage to a Universal Focus is that other characters can use it." is WOEFULLY devoid of detail in comparison to the guidance the rules give us regarding Independent. Independent explicitly states "the Independent Power will work if the character is... ...across the world." A STRICT reading of the rules implies this can not be true of a Universal Focus or it would be worth points one way or the other. Therefore a Universal Focus must have a stricter duration and distance limit on other characters using it than an Independent one would. Yet this is not clarified.

 

Actually, no. Independent is NOT limited only to foci. Therefore, when a power has independent and does NOT have focus it still works like a Universal focus.

 

More to the point, if that text was NOT there, you could have a PERSONAL Independent focus, that could thus be lost forever... but is completely and utterly useless to anyone other than you. Which is contrary to the concept of an independent power (which CAN be used by others).

 

In short, Universal stinks as a systems mechanic and most UF that everyone takes for granted should have been built with Independent but were not. The way things are now Universal Focus is a giant systems-abuse waiting to happen.

 

Says the guy who hands out -2 limitations like candy.

 

And thank god it doesn't matter.

 

This is not a democracy, nor a popularity contest. The Rules are The Law. We only interpret it. Hopefully as closely as possible.

 

The only "agreement" I need is that my players feel they are being treated fairly and having fun and that I feel the same when I'm a player. You may game for other reasons and to fulfill other needs. Fair enough. YMMV.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

I would have sized Cap as about 240 lbs.; not over 300. I'm 6' 3" and not in great shape, but I still weigh only 230 pounds. Traditional shields were made of laminated wood with metal and/or leather reinforcement, but they were certainly not particularly light. I'd say Cap's shield is between 2½ and 3 feet in diameter.

Cap's WWF-like size has been noted by DD, Punisher, Wolvie, etc, etc. He weighs 300-325lbs and it's ALL muscle. As you well know, muscle is 2.5-3x denser than fat. What would you expect out of a character who supposedly has "Maximum possible for a Human" characteristics in every way?

 

The Shield completely covers the torso of the BIG guy we just described. It has to bigger than 3' in diameter to do that.

 

 

Outlands; Citadel of the Southern Pass (Barony). I was a herald rather than a stick jock, but most of the household I was in were fighters.

Aren't most?

 

Bucky was still a teenager; I'd be surprised if he had a STR higher than 10 or 12. Light to an adult male with superhuman STR may still be heavy to a 16 year old.

I thought Bucky was a fellow infantryman in Steve's unit? If so, he could not have been 16 unless he was a +big+ 16 and got away with lying about his age...

 

OTOH, when I was 16, at 5'9" I weighed 135lbs. I benched ~335lbs, could dunk a basketball, could do forward (but not side-to-side) splits, and was running ~18.5 miles at a time 2-3x per week. I hiked with 45+ lb packs on a semi-regular basis.

 

Admittedly, that's a decent level of physical fitness; but I'm pretty sure I could have carried even a solid metal 3'-4' "medium round" without being too encumbered. Carried it with Casual Str? Probably not. But I don't think I'd be very encumbered either.

 

But since it's made of indestructible material, there's no reason for it to be thick in the first place. Adamantium the thickness of typing paper would stop a bullet, and Cap's shield was acknowledged to be far superior to pure adamantium. My impression, from many years of reading Captain America comics, was of a thicker edge (Perhaps 1/4" or 3/8") to help carry and throw it with a rather thin central portion. My guess is the shield is less than an eighth of an inch thick through most of its body, and hence no heavier than a wooden shield of more traditional construction.

So the shield has a cross section similar to a red blood cell in this interpretation? Hmmm....

[Trebuchet]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

So the shield has a cross section similar to a red blood cell in this interpretation? Hmmm....

I would have said more like a frisbee, but red blood cell might work too.

[JmOz]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Bucky is an anachronism

 

He was 16, he was not actualy in the service but was more of a camp mascott type, why they let him go into combat is unknown...

[CDad]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

http://www.google.com/googleblog/halloween5.jpg

 

http://www.briansdriveintheater.com/superhero/rebbrown/rebbrown18.jpg

 

http://www.costumecraze.com/images/vendors/disguise/5020-main.jpg

 

http://www.bikemenu.com/photos/art/captainamericacomic/Captain%20America%20toy%20003.jpg

 

http://www.guessthegross.com/gtg/images/Captain_America.jpg

 

http://piscosour.free.fr/numero2/articles/captain/captain2.jpg

 

http://www.victorsart.com/pics/appearances/06-captain-america.jpg

 

Aaaaarrrgh!

[Starlord]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Cap's WWF-like size has been noted by DD' date=' Punisher, Wolvie, etc, etc. He weighs 300-325lbs and it's ALL muscle. As you well know, muscle is 2.5-3x denser than fat. What would you expect out of a character who supposedly has "Maximum possible for a Human" characteristics in every way?[/quote']

 

On various websites, including the official Marvel site, as well as the OHOTMU, Cap is listed as 6' 2", 240 lbs.

 

 

My Cap writeup is 590 points. I have the shield with a multipower, OIF (very inaccessible) and clearly unbreakable (totally agree with whammewhamme's interpretation). The OIHID thing is just silly and unfathomable to me. This means that things like Spidey's web-shooters, Batman's utility belt, and Green Lantern's ring would also be OIHID. OIHID is for stuff imitating Dr. Don Blake and Billy Batson's abilities. Additionally, there was a time when Steve Rogers carried the shield around in his art portfolio case. He used the shield in street clothes on two different occasions as I recall. One to bash someone over the head with and in another he surreptitiously used the portfolio case to block AIM blaster fire.

[CDad]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

When a source like OHOTMU states a certain lifting ability, does that translate to a "Clean and Jerk" (50% of their lifting ability)?

 

If so, then since Cap has an 800 lb OHOTMU lifting ability, and has been recorded as bench pressing (75% of his lifting ability) at least 1100 lbs (http://www.comicboards.com/camb/view.php?rpl=050401143019 suggests it was 2200 lbs), then he should have a Hero Systems lifting ability of the greater of...

 

800 x 2 / 2.2 = 727 KG (24 STR) or

1100 / .75 / 2.2 = 667 KG (24 STR) or

2200 / .75 / 2.2 = 1333 KG (29 STR).

 

Cap could carry Ricky around with his casual strength, so it doesn't matter if the Shield weighs 6 KG (12 lbs) or 12 KG (25 lbs).

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

When a source like OHOTMU states a certain lifting ability, does that translate to a "Clean and Jerk" (50% of their lifting ability)?

 

If so, then since Cap has an 800 lb OHOTMU lifting ability, and has been recorded as bench pressing (75% of his lifting ability) at least 1100 lbs (http://www.comicboards.com/camb/view.php?rpl=050401143019 suggests it was 2200 lbs), then he should have a Hero Systems lifting ability of the greater of...

 

800 x 2 / 2.2 = 727 KG (24 STR) or

1100 / .75 / 2.2 = 667 KG (24 STR) or

2200 / .75 / 2.2 = 1333 KG (29 STR).

 

Cap could carry Ricky around with his casual strength, so it doesn't matter if the Shield weighs 6 KG (12 lbs) or 12 KG (25 lbs).

Yea. I was orginally going to place him around 25 Str, but the 500lb two-armed curl, the 2200lb bench, the shattering of a rifle barehanded (two-handed "bend a horseshoe"-like maneuver), and the two combat maneuvers where he caught a 200+lb human sized object in full motion (Nomad and Big Bertha) and reversed their motion (one armed in Nomad's case!) convince me his Str should be ~30. That would also jibe with The Shield having a Str min ~15.

 

What the source material implies about his _Con_ is even more outrageous for a "human" I'm SERIOUSLY considering a 40-45 Con for him based on it.

 

OTOH, it makes sense that Cap's Con (and possibly Dex and SPD) would be higher than his Str since ITRW the 2 great physical gifts by far of Homo Sapiens as a species are Con and Dex (possibly SPD as well). -As a species-, we have levels of Con nothing else on earth does, and -as a species- a "warmed up" human has more Dex+SPD than any other critter on earth. (Since we have no natural armor, not even fur+hide, compared to anything that might compete with Man, our best situational defense has always been Dodge and/or "out move".) -As a species-, we just aren't that impressive Str wise compared to either our Con and Dex+SPD scores OR other critter's Str scores.

 

So it makes sense that Cap's Con and Dex (possible SPD as well) have to be even more impressive than his Str, yet still within the bounds of "natural" (whatever that means)...

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Despite a few misgivings, if you follow the thread people can see that I've dumped OHID from The Shield.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

First pass at Steve Rogers' Stats:

30 Str

28 Dex

45 Con

25 Bod

23 Int

23 Ego

25 Pre

24 Com

10 PD

10 ED

6 SPD

13 REC

62 END

63 STUN

13" Run

6" Swim

6" Leap

 

Would appreciate feedback, Pro or Con (no pun). Especially on values for Dex, Con, and SPD.

[ParagonAlpha]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Okay I know I'm a little late on this one but man some of you people and the need to perfect stats is crazy.

 

Cap's Str: I'd say at best he has a 25 Str. I'd give him a 23 Str, but 25 is fitting. Cap has displayed moments of greater strength, on occasions, which would suggest he Pushed his STR. If using the 25 STR example that would give him a 35 STR for brief periods.

 

Cap's Dex: Years of experience and combat skill has given Cap great refelexes. But not on par with Spidey's or even Daredevil's. I'd Say his Dex is roughly a 20.

(He gets beyond that with OCV and DCV levels, Talents like Fast Draw (bought for his punching and shield)

 

Cap's Con: I'd say a 20. The Super-Soldier formula makes him healthier and he ages really slow. All handled by the proper Life Supports.

 

Cap's Shield: Multipower is the best way to go, with a mix of Ultra and Multi Slots.

 

Powers Stunts:

Shield Throw - Energy Blast (physical)

Agent Shield Throw - Energy Blast (physical) - AOE (Any)

Shield Bash - HA

Close Quarters Fighting - HA AOE (radius)

Focus Destruction - Killing Attack (only vs. Focus)

Passive Defense - Armor

Passive Defense for Others - Force Wall (1" Area)

Active Defense - Missile Deflection

Force Absorption - Knockback Resistance

Landing Device - Superleap (only to counter falling)

Pry Bar - Extra Strength (only as a lever)

Inspiration - Extra Presence (only used as Offense)

 

The shield is an OIF (It can't easily be taken from Cap, unless he's been knocked out), Independant (anyone who has the shield can use the abilities ie, Vance Astro, Taskmaster, and even the Punisher)

 

Plus I'd give him the Power Skill: So he can use these powers in unique ways if the situation calls for it. The effectiveness of these powers would be based off the power level of the game.

 

I hope this helps. If you think I'm off-base please explain where and if I missed something also let me know.

 

Peace

[austenandrews]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Would appreciate feedback' date=' Pro or Con (no pun). Especially on values for Dex, Con, and SPD.[/quote']

Looks good, except for that CON. Yikes. I'd give the Hulk a 45 CON, not Cap. SPD and DEX are fine.

 

INT is too high. I'd go for an 18, 20 on the outside. STR and EGO are also a bit high, but not outside the range of possibility. I'm not sure his END needs to be so high, either, with his whole "never gets tired" schtick. Speaking of which, don't forget 0 END on his STR.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Okay I know I'm a little late on this one but man some of you people and the need to perfect stats is crazy.

 

Cap's Str: I'd say at best he has a 25 Str. I'd give him a 23 Str, but 25 is fitting. Cap has displayed moments of greater strength, on occasions, which would suggest he Pushed his STR. If using the 25 STR example that would give him a 35 STR for brief periods.

Take a look at the links posted. See what you think. Steve is doing things _in training_ (where Pushing is not done) indicative of a 30 Str. Cap ROUTINELY leaps 20+' (~3" HERO) straight up in the air, as did Red Skull when he was in a SR clone. The is also indicative of a 30 Str, and there's too many examples across too many writers for it to be a flick of one writer's interpretation.

 

 

Cap's Dex: Years of experience and combat skill has given Cap great refelexes. But not on par with Spidey's or even Daredevil's. I'd Say his Dex is roughly a 20. He gets beyond that with OCV and DCV levels, Talents like Fast Draw (bought for his punching and shield).

DD himself has said that Cap has better reflexes than he does (and in DD's own book!). Wolverine has mentioned Cap as having on par or slightly better relexes than he does (BIG admission given hoe arrogant Wolvie is). Cap has acknowledged that Spidey is faster than he is.

 

As far combat goes, Steve definitely has Talents like Combat Luck, Combat Sense, Lightning Reflexes, and Rapid Healing to go along with Skills like Acrobatics, Breakfall, Defense Maneuver, Fast Draw (Shield), Rapid Attack (HTH + Ranged), Skill Levels, Tactics, and Teamwork.

 

Finally, in HERO practically every MA has a high Dex, with only Speedster's being higher. Most MA's, even superheroic ones, are "only human". Cap regularly mops the floor with MA's in the comics. He has to have a Dex that is reasonably comparable. 20 ain't high enough to model that, even with all those Talents and Skills.

 

 

Cap's Con: I'd say a 20. The Super-Soldier formula makes him healthier and he ages really slow. All handled by the proper Life Supports.

The slow aging thing is common to all comic book heroes, so I disregard it in any specific case unless there's EXPRESS reasons otherwise. Given the source material, Cap MAY have the long-lived advantage compared to his Marvel peers, but that's about it.

 

As for the actual Con score, Steve has to represent the highest possible Con a Homo Sapiens can possibly attain through evolution or otherwise and still be a Homo Sapiens. 20 Con doesn't make sense by that metric. Since he's "human", most if not all forms of intrinsic Life Support don't make sense either.

 

Given what feats of Con and END Steve regularly accomplishes, a 20 Con doesn't make sense either.

 

Finally, there's the logic of HERO to consider. Cap is basically a low level Brick/high level MA with an impressive amount of Talents and Skills and very few Powers. A high Con fits this character proto-type.

 

 

Cap's Shield: Multipower is the best way to go, with a mix of Ultra and Multi Slots.

Powers Stunts:

Shield Throw - Energy Blast (physical)

Agent Shield Throw - Energy Blast (physical) - AOE (Any)

Shield Bash - HA

Close Quarters Fighting - HA AOE (radius)

Focus Destruction - Killing Attack (only vs. Focus)

Passive Defense - Armor

Passive Defense for Others - Force Wall (1" Area)

Active Defense - Missile Deflection

Force Absorption - Knockback Resistance

Landing Device - Superleap (only to counter falling)

Pry Bar - Extra Strength (only as a lever)

Inspiration - Extra Presence (only used as Offense)

 

The shield is an OIF (It can't easily be taken from Cap, unless he's been knocked out), Independant (anyone who has the shield can use the abilities ie, Vance Astro, Taskmaster, and even the Punisher)

 

Plus I'd give him the Power Skill: So he can use these powers in unique ways if the situation calls for it. The effectiveness of these powers would be based off the power level of the game.

Noted, and I'll think carefully on this proposal.

 

 

I hope this helps. If you think I'm off-base please explain where and if I missed something also let me know.

Thanks for being willing to help and I hope you appreciate the discussion.

[CDad]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

30 Str

28 Dex I have him at 26, but 28 seems right too

45 Con Yikes from me too! I had 28, so this is a big step. No need to ½ END his STR

25 Bod Yikes again... this is Hippopotamus BODY...

23 Int I was thinking 18... didn't think S. Serum affected his IQ

23 Ego I agree

25 Pre I think 30 is better... he's a commanding presence

24 Com I had 18, but it's cheap, and honestly doesn't matter...

10 PD

10 ED

6 SPD 5 seems too slow, 7 seems to fast, so you have... 6

13 REC

62 END

63 STUN

13" Run

6" Swim

6" Leap

 

Everything else looks good. Combat Luck, Combat Senses, Defense Maneuver, Rapid Attack, 8/8 Armor.. He's gonna kick @$$ and take names.

 

Wierd... my post disappeared.

 

I'll try it again...

[Starlord]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

First pass at Steve Rogers' Stats:

30 Str

28 Dex

45 Con

25 Bod

23 Int

23 Ego

25 Pre

24 Com

10 PD

10 ED

6 SPD

13 REC

62 END

63 STUN

13" Run

6" Swim

6" Leap

 

Would appreciate feedback, Pro or Con (no pun). Especially on values for Dex, Con, and SPD.

 

Most of those are fine with me. I believe in trying to accurately simulate what appears most in the actual comics. I think a lot of the '250 pt' crowd will have a problem with these stats as they seem to rely heavily on skills and would hold someone like Cap to max 20s and SPD 4. My quibbles would be with CON, BOD, EGO, and PRE. Some might say INT is too high, but Cap has shown a excellent INT on many occasions, he just doesn't have the skills to use it like the super scientists do. EGO is ok as long he is given strong Mental Defense since he's proven to have one of the stronger minds in the Marvel Universe. PRE is WAY to low for me. Except for maybe Thor, I can't think of another hero (and perhaps only a few master villains) who has a more commanding presence than Captain America. CON and BOD are also high, especially CON. Those are high even for most major bricks. I noticed your counter-argument for the 45 CON above and disagree with your reasoning that it has to be the 'highest possible'. I'm curious, if your Cap has a 45 CON and 25 BOD then what stats would you give Thor or Hulk in those areas?

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

OK, I'm dropping the Con to 35

EDIT: MAYBE even 25 or 30. The d@mn "I never miss my Con Roll" and "I can keep up with Hulk and Thor" problems are making this decision tough. How do I give him a Con Roll of 17- or 18- and not give him Major Brick-level Con?

 

The problem is that Cap NEVER misses his Con Roll, does Hulk and Thor-like feats of Con+END, etc etc

 

As I said, just +considering+ giving him a Con that accurately represents his performance in the books made my head hurt.

 

Given what it takes to STUN or take him down Body wise, AND the interpretation that he's the peak of human physical and mental ability, the 25 Body fits.

 

A 25 Pre with things like Oratory and Leadership seems to model him well. After all, people don't just fall to their knees when he walks in the room or strikes a pose (Presence Attacks). He usually gives a soliloquy that stirs people. As opposed to The Bat, who routinely shows a VERY high Pre attack.

[CDad]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

I have a few Disadvantages...

 

10 DNPC: Current Love Interest 8- (Normal)

25 Hunted: Red Skull & Company 11- (More Powerful, NCI, Harshly Punish)

20 Hunted: Hydra or AIM 8- (More Powerful, NCI, Harshly Punish)

15 Hunted: Serpent Society Baron Zemo, Arnim Zola, or Flag Smasher 8- (More Powerful, Harshly Punish)

20 Psychological Limitation: Superpatriot - Belief In American Ideals (Common, Total)

15 Psychological Limitation: Code against Killing (Common, Strong)

15 Psychological Limitation: Code of Honor (Common, Strong)

15 Social Limitation: Secret Identity (Frequently, Major)

 

 

This is what I was able to come up with... I'd like to get the full 150 points (It's a thing with me)... any suggestions?

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

CON and BOD are also high, especially CON. Those are high even for most major bricks. I noticed your counter-argument for the 45 CON above and disagree with your reasoning that it has to be the 'highest possible'. I'm curious, if your Cap has a 45 CON and 25 BOD then what stats would you give Thor or Hulk in those areas?

HERO is designed to build Bricks. Particularly by giving characters high Str, Con, and Bod. Unfortunately, since the standard damage system does so little Bod, the Bod scale ends up compressed. OTOH, Str and Con get more efficient the higher the values. To the point that very high values of Str and Con can be used as the basis for some munchkin tactics (usually involving selling back large amounts of END and STUN) if the GM is not careful.

 

Hulk and Thor class Bricks have VERY high Str and Con, and I don't mind having high-end Bricks with Con as high as their Str running around.

 

After all, Bricks like Hulk, Superman, and Thor are essentially god-like Str and Con wise.

[Force]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

OK, I'm dropping the Con to 35

EDIT: MAYBE even 25 or 30. The d@mn "I never miss my Con Roll" and "I can keep up with Hulk and Thor" problems are making this decision tough. How do I give him a Con Roll of 17- or 18- and not give him Major Brick-level Con?

 

The problem is that Cap NEVER misses his Con Roll, does Hulk and Thor-like feats of Con+END, etc etc

 

As I said, just +considering+ giving him a Con that accurately represents his performance in the books made my head hurt.

 

Given what it takes to STUN or take him down Body wise, AND the interpretation that he's the peak of human physical and mental ability, the 25 Body fits.

 

A 25 Pre with things like Oratory and Leadership seems to model him well. After all, people don't just fall to their knees when he walks in the room or strikes a pose (Presence Attacks). He usually gives a soliloquy that stirs people. As opposed to The Bat, who routinely shows a VERY high Pre attack.

 

 

My take on Caps stats:

 

Str 25 or 30

Dex 26 or 29

Con 28

Bod 15-20

Int 18-23

Ego 20-23

Pre 30+

Com 14-18

PD 8-12

ED 8-12

Spd 6

Rec 12-14

End (figured)

Stun (figured+10-20)

 

I guess for some reason you don't believe in buying up figured characteristics. No way cap has 25 body! Max human is supposed to be 20. If you want him to have a higher stun, simply buy it up!

 

You can always buy +'s to his con roll. You can also buy +'s to his dex via fastdraw as well.

 

Here are my Cap stats:

 

Str 25

Dex 29

Con 28

Bod 18

Int 18

Ego 23

Pre 30

Com 18

PD 10

ED 10

Spd 6

Rec 12

End 56

Stun 55