Tetrodotoxin

[Dust Raven]

For those unfamiliar with this particular venom: http://www.kingsnake.com/toxinology/tetrodotoxin.html

 

What I'm trying to simulate is a variant of this potentially lethal toxin. The effect I'm looking for is simple but total, near instant paralysis of the target.

 

The delivery system is a dart, either thrown or launched from a blowgun or dartgun of some sort.

 

Options could include a slightly delayed effect (might take a few Segments or a single Phase to take effect) but instant works just fine.

 

The methods of becoming un-paralysed are undecided. Logically, it should just wear off after time, or be immediately negated through the use of an anti-toxin, but I'm okay with other things like making a CON Roll.

 

What are some way I could write this up?

[McCoy]

Re: Tetrodotoxin

 

Entangle, using CON rather than STR to break out?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Tetrodotoxin

 

For those unfamiliar with this particular venom: http://www.kingsnake.com/toxinology/tetrodotoxin.html

 

What I'm trying to simulate is a variant of this potentially lethal toxin. The effect I'm looking for is simple but total, near instant paralysis of the target.

 

The delivery system is a dart, either thrown or launched from a blowgun or dartgun of some sort.

 

Options could include a slightly delayed effect (might take a few Segments or a single Phase to take effect) but instant works just fine.

 

The methods of becoming un-paralysed are undecided. Logically, it should just wear off after time, or be immediately negated through the use of an anti-toxin, but I'm okay with other things like making a CON Roll.

 

What are some way I could write this up?

 

Trouble with entanle is it is gonna get espensive

 

Well you could do all kindsa slots, but what your after is an effect that the target can't move and will cause damage.

 

How about a cumulative mental illusions based on CON: at the +30 level it will allow the target to suffer complete paralysis and suffer real damage

[OddHat]

Re: Tetrodotoxin

 

I'd do it as an Entangle base on Con (+0 advantage, or maybe +1/4), transparent to all attacks, Can't form Barriers, Susceptable to Anti-Venom, linked to 1 pip RKA (dart)(-0 or -1/4, depending on how gernerous you're feeling), RKA must do body to deliver venom (-1/2). Add in extra DEF and you'll be able to hold any normal and most Supers for a reasonable real point total.

[Eosin]

Re: Tetrodotoxin

 

Puffer fish toxin causes complete respiratory paralysis on top of everything else - HKA NND does BODY - DEF is anarobic metabolism. A linked TRANSFORM into a the same character with the Physical limit - Flaccid paralysis (V. Com, Total) on top of the HKA would mimic the venom.

[Supreme]

Re: Tetrodotoxin

 

Puffer fish toxin causes complete respiratory paralysis on top of everything else - HKA NND does BODY - DEF is anarobic metabolism. A linked TRANSFORM into a the same character with the Physical limit - Flaccid paralysis (V. Com' date=' Total) on top of the HKA would mimic the venom.[/quote']

My understanding was that, unless too much toxin was delivered, the paralysis was not complete. There is still a minimal amount of cardio and respiratory functioning going on, but so little that even a doctor can't find a pulse.

 

And if you don't like the Entangle (Oddhat's seemed the best representation with that power-combo) then you could try to do a transformation attack. True that'll be expensive, but it shouldn't be cheap to instantly render someone helpless.

[Eosin]

Re: Tetrodotoxin

 

My understanding was that' date=' unless too much toxin was delivered, the paralysis was not [i']complete[/i]. There is still a minimal amount of cardio and respiratory functioning going on, but so little that even a doctor can't find a pulse.

 

The first part is correct but that occurs through casual contamination of food which has something like a 30-50% lethality range. If we are talking about a coated poison weapon then the lethality range will be significantly higher (you can mimic this by adjusting the die of the HKA). This compares favoribly with nerve gas and ricin poisoning both of which are considered extremely lethal. I can only think of a few things off hand that are in the same toxicity league as pufferfish (distilled nicotine, a rare form of mercury, oleander, amitoxins, hanta virus, the bird flu, and rabies - of these ONLY rabies is 100% lethal) To put it into other terms, pufferfish is more deadly than the weaponized anthrax that saw play in the US a few years ago AND dozens or hundreds of times more deadly than SARS.

 

I would need to do a little more reseach to conclusively verify all the examples but I feel fairly confident in my assessment. (I like my write up but that could go any one of a dozen ways - my confidence is in the assessment of the toxidrome).

 

As to the second part - I wouldn't trust a Dr to find a pulse For that you need an RN. If there is no detectible pulse you are in a state called PEA and it is not compatible with maintaining organs, primarily the kidneys, brain, and heart. This is a "state" of what a layperson would call cardiac arrest - if no pulse, start CPR. It is possible through pacing that you could capture the rhythym and sustain life but PEA almost always results in death.

[SirViss]

Re: Tetrodotoxin

 

If (for gaming purposes) you make the allowance that the poison won't don't any damage to the character, I would think that a CON Drain might do the trick. Once the victim reaches 0 CON, he must make a CON Skill Roll to expend any amount of END. If you want him to be completely "paralysed", make the power Continuous. Once a victim reaches -30 CON, you can's spend ANY END.

 

Philosophically, I don't think that a CON-based entangle is right, since if you break out, you suddenly don't suffer any of the effect of the poison. At the very least you should make it Continuous, so that the next Phase he would be Entangled again. Heck the Entangle would get more an more BODY after every phase until max BODY would be acheived, making it harder to break out, as the victim goes more and more numb.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Tetrodotoxin

 

I'd do it as an Entangle base on Con (+0 advantage' date=' or maybe +1/4), transparent to all attacks, Can't form Barriers, Susceptable to Anti-Venom, linked to 1 pip RKA (dart)(-0 or -1/4, depending on how gernerous you're feeling), RKA must do body to deliver venom (-1/2). Add in extra DEF and you'll be able to hold any normal and most Supers for a reasonable real point total.[/quote']

 

Entangle doesn't work unless you cheat: Transparent to attacks DOES NOT mean you can not use 'normal' attacks against the entangle, just that any such attack takes a -3 OCV penalty. The entangled character can attack it normally without a roll - allowing you to energy blast your way out of being poisoned, which is a bit daft.

 

Probably the easiest way to do paralysis it is a drain (which could effect several characteristics) - DEX or SPD (or both) or possibly STR and certainly BODY (perhaps with gradual effect on some or all of the BODY drain). You could make it RSR (opposed roll) against CON if you think CON would help (it wouldn't: it is just chemistry - the only things that would help are being MUCH bigger than normal, an alien or unusual physiology or some sort of immunity). If you just want paralysis, leave out the BODY drain. You can adjust how long it lasts by moving the recovery rate.

 

You could do it with transform, obviously...it is in fact the best way to do something comlicated and long lasting, like a poison, although, as a cludge-all, it should be avoided if there is any other way...

 

Don't forget mind powers though. I mentioned mental illusions, thinking that you wanted to do damage, but if you don't, you can use mind control (single command: don't move) based on CON. That'll work instantly. For an injected venom you'd want NND, I'd imagine, and a link to the carrier attack (at the lower -1/4 level as it'll be a bigger power). In effect it is just a contest between the venom damage and the CON of the target. I'd say CON+20 would probably paralyse, but if anyone was mortally threatened they's get a breakout roll as if the level had gone up to CON+30.

[OddHat]

Re: Tetrodotoxin

 

Entangle doesn't work unless you cheat: Transparent to attacks DOES NOT mean you can not use 'normal' attacks against the entangle, just that any such attack takes a -3 OCV penalty. The entangled character can attack it normally without a roll - allowing you to energy blast your way out of being poisoned, which is a bit daft.

 

Probably the easiest way to do paralysis it is a drain (which could effect several characteristics) - DEX or SPD (or both) or possibly STR and certainly BODY (perhaps with gradual effect on some or all of the BODY drain). You could make it RSR (opposed roll) against CON if you think CON would help (it wouldn't: it is just chemistry - the only things that would help are being MUCH bigger than normal, an alien or unusual physiology or some sort of immunity). If you just want paralysis, leave out the BODY drain. You can adjust how long it lasts by moving the recovery rate.

 

You could do it with transform, obviously...it is in fact the best way to do something comlicated and long lasting, like a poison, although, as a cludge-all, it should be avoided if there is any other way...

 

Don't forget mind powers though. I mentioned mental illusions, thinking that you wanted to do damage, but if you don't, you can use mind control (single command: don't move) based on CON. That'll work instantly. For an injected venom you'd want NND, I'd imagine, and a link to the carrier attack (at the lower -1/4 level as it'll be a bigger power). In effect it is just a contest between the venom damage and the CON of the target. I'd say CON+20 would probably paralyse, but if anyone was mortally threatened they's get a breakout roll as if the level had gone up to CON+30.

 

You can always make it a BOECV Entangle vs. Con.

 

(The drain idea works well; I've done nerve gas like that before)

[Dust Raven]

Re: Tetrodotoxin

 

If (for gaming purposes) you make the allowance that the poison won't don't any damage to the character, I would think that a CON Drain might do the trick. Once the victim reaches 0 CON, he must make a CON Skill Roll to expend any amount of END. If you want him to be completely "paralysed", make the power Continuous. Once a victim reaches -30 CON, you can's spend ANY END.

 

Philosophically, I don't think that a CON-based entangle is right, since if you break out, you suddenly don't suffer any of the effect of the poison. At the very least you should make it Continuous, so that the next Phase he would be Entangled again. Heck the Entangle would get more an more BODY after every phase until max BODY would be acheived, making it harder to break out, as the victim goes more and more numb.

 

I like this. I think I could keep the cost on something like this relatively low as well (probably through things like Focus and Charges though). A Continuous Drain CON... it would still allow movement so long as the movement didn't require END costs, would still allow mental actions that didn't cost END... it's not total paralysis, but it would stop most people from moving or taking physical actions worthy of using game mechanics for.

 

I'll see what I can come up with using this. Thanks!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Tetrodotoxin

 

You can always make it a BOECV Entangle vs. Con.

 

(The drain idea works well; I've done nerve gas like that before)

 

IMO this still doesn't work: BOECV (with a couple of other advantages: physical attacks have no effect and whatever the other one in the book is) mean that physical attacks can not effect the entangle, but mental attacks can. Even if you could apply Based on CON to this (and I don't think you can: it just restores the physical effect aspect of the power, putting it back where you started, and can only really be applied to powers that cause damage or rolled points that amount to level of effect) you'd then wind up with a toxin you could Ego Blast away.

 

I still think drains are the best way to go (although you won't get this to be instant and, unless you think that power Defence acts against biochemical agents, you'll need to make it NND, which won't be cheap. Oh and you'll need 'ranged' too...), but I was looking at Mind Control again and (if you needed Ego + 30) you'd get a -3/4 limitiation. 30 points of effect is (on average) 8 or 9 dice. Say you want to effect a CON of 24, that's another 7 dice, total 15d6, or thereabouts.

 

So, a paralysing agent that can take down super-CON characters would cost out at:

 

15d6 Mind control 75 points

 

NND +1 (resisitant PD/anti-venom)

150 Active points

 

Single command (don't move) -1/2

Based on CON (-1)

Requires +30 level of effect (-3/4)

6 continuing chages (1 minute) -3/4)

37 Real points

 

That's without focus and suchlike: in practice it would be cheaper although the active points are high. Mind you the effect is devastating: you practically guarantee getting the level of effect to paralyse any human and many enhanced constitutions. Breakout rolls are a problem but the continuing chages mean that they don't improve for 5 minutes. If you had a stupid GM you could link in some negative skill levels: for 18 points more (12 when linked) you can apply -6 to breakout rolls, meaning that even someone with a low superhuman CON (23) is only breaking out on 8 or less, and all this for less then the real points of a 10d6 EB. Higher levels of CON will be harder to effect, but this may not be unrealistic. Depends on what effect you think fish venom would have on a superhuman constitution.

 

Mind you the venom also causes repsiratory collapse, so you'll definitely be needing 1d6NND Does BODY (Defence is LS or nonstandard biochemistry) or the equivalent, unless the 'modifications' are quite extensive.

 

NB if you do go with drain then you will need to think about how many points you need: to effect complete paralysis you will need to get STR, DEX or CON down to -30, or SPD down to 0. Even then if someone has bought their running and strength at 0 END they aren't even going to be slowed down, so DEX or STR. STR is much cheaper to drain: 1 point per point rather than 3, but also tends to vary a great deal. Even assuming a base 20 STR you'll need 50 points of effect for paralysis. Mind you, your target might have 70 or more STR, so it could be double that (100 points). DEX isn't really worth thinking about: even a 20 DEX will require 150 points of effect to get down to -30. SPD might be your best bet, then: SPD averages 50-60 active points and only has to go down to 0.

 

To be quite sure of effecting all character builds equally though you should probably build the power with an advantage that allows it to effect more than one characteristic.

 

Assuming you can go just with SPD drain, you'll need about 16 dice worth of effect for instant paralysis of the average superhero, which is 160 points in drain. To make it NND will double the cost. Of course you could go for a more gradual effect by adding continuous and uncontrolled, but that is +1.5 worth of advantages. You could have 4d6 SPD drain, continous, uncontrolled and NND for 140 points, and with 6 continuing 1 minute charges it would take about 4 phases from being hit for an average hero to be paralysed. The 4 phases isn't bad: due to the Changing SPEED rules the target may not get any actions at all during this time!

 

...and that's all I'm going t say on the matter. In this post, anyway...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Tetrodotoxin

 

If (for gaming purposes) you make the allowance that the poison won't don't any damage to the character, I would think that a CON Drain might do the trick. Once the victim reaches 0 CON, he must make a CON Skill Roll to expend any amount of END. If you want him to be completely "paralysed", make the power Continuous. Once a victim reaches -30 CON, you can's spend ANY END.

 

Philosophically, I don't think that a CON-based entangle is right, since if you break out, you suddenly don't suffer any of the effect of the poison. At the very least you should make it Continuous, so that the next Phase he would be Entangled again. Heck the Entangle would get more an more BODY after every phase until max BODY would be acheived, making it harder to break out, as the victim goes more and more numb.

 

...but if you have bought STR and running to 0 END, having -30 CON won't even slow you down.

 

Maybe the drain should target CON + Reduced END advantages...

[OddHat]

Re: Tetrodotoxin

 

I still think drains are the best way to go (although you won't get this to be instant and, unless you think that power Defence acts against biochemical agents, you'll need to make it NND, which won't be cheap.

 

It's conceptually stupid, but Power Defense is meant to work against biochemical agents, magic, and anything else that's built as an adjustment power; you can add NND, but that's (imo) a kludge to fix the non-SFX driven way the power works.

[Mike W]

Re: Tetrodotoxin

 

Just to make sure I understand what you want - you want poison that paralyzes someone to the point that they appear to be dead but are actually still alive, albeit only barely.

 

Right?

 

Okay, so how's this:

 

Delivery system: the usual Pentrating RKA with the poison getting the limit "only if RKA does BODY".

 

The poison: Simulate Death, usable against others(+1/4), usable as an attack(+1), standard effect for duration. CON roll instead of EGO roll(-1)

[Barton]

Re: Tetrodotoxin

 

Puffer Fish kills about 50 or so people each year in Japan, from improperly prepared fish. In Japan a license is required for a person to be legally allowed to prepare it. Tetrodotoxin is a VERY strong neuro-posion. It is commonly used in neuroscience labs and toxicology labs.

My formal training is in toxicology, and Tetrodotoxin is a very interesting poison. A neuroscience professor had puffer fish in Japan (VERY expensive dinner $300 in the 1970's) and described it as "out of body, eurphoic experience". Again this was a very low dose of the poison. It has an interesting biochemical action on neurons and the receptors on them.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Tetrodotoxin

 

Just to make sure I understand what you want - you want poison that paralyzes someone to the point that they appear to be dead but are actually still alive, albeit only barely.

 

Right?

 

Okay, so how's this:

 

Delivery system: the usual Pentrating RKA with the poison getting the limit "only if RKA does BODY".

 

The poison: Simulate Death, usable against others(+1/4), usable as an attack(+1), standard effect for duration. CON roll instead of EGO roll(-1)

 

What I'm looking for is something based on the effects of tetrodotoxin. The end, in game mechanical effect is total or or near total paralysis. There is no chance of actually harming the target directly, collapsing their lungs or anything like that. This is being used by a hero who doesn't want to hurt people who's player has a fascination with exotic poisons.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Tetrodotoxin

 

Mmm...

 

Okay, after working with a Drain CON, and eventually moving to a Drain CON+END (so that even if they made their CON Roll, they've have to burn STUN to move), I scrapped it. We didn't like the idea that some people would still be able to move unhindered (through some kind of 0 END movement thing). However, we still wanted something physical about the body to resist the effects. So we decided to make it a weakening agent that slowly paralyses the target, and as it does, their muscles seize up (causing an effective loss of STR). So, we've got a Drain STR.

 

Tetrodotoxin Paralytic Darts: Drain STR 3d6, Range Based On STR (+1/4), Continuous (+1); OAF (blowgun; -1), 4 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Turn each (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), No Affect Versus rPD Or Appropriate LS (-1/2). Real Cost: 19 points.

 

There is no RKA bought as a delivery system, since the dart is so small it couldn't cause any physical damage to the target. It's simply represented by the "No Affect..." Limitation.

 

Would this work?

[pinecone]

Re: Tetrodotoxin

 

Dang...I was going to suggest Transform:Normal state into paralyzed state....

[Eosin]

Re: Tetrodotoxin

 

What I'm looking for is something based on the effects of tetrodotoxin. The end' date=' in game mechanical effect is total or or near total paralysis. There is no chance of actually harming the target directly, collapsing their lungs or anything like that. This is being used by a hero who doesn't want to hurt people who's player has a fascination with exotic poisons.[/quote']

 

Interesting medical qips

 

The lungs are powered by muscles and IRL anything that induces near or total paralysis is going to kill simply because the muscles stop working. I think holding to your "it is like a RW poison" is what is steering the advice rather than this is a comicbook poison that paralyses but allows the person to continue breathing. I thought you were looking to mimic the effects of tetrodotoxin instead of using it as a special effect. Then again, I may be too close to the subject and trying to blend my career with my game.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Tetrodotoxin

 

Mmm...

 

Okay, after working with a Drain CON, and eventually moving to a Drain CON+END (so that even if they made their CON Roll, they've have to burn STUN to move), I scrapped it. We didn't like the idea that some people would still be able to move unhindered (through some kind of 0 END movement thing). However, we still wanted something physical about the body to resist the effects. So we decided to make it a weakening agent that slowly paralyses the target, and as it does, their muscles seize up (causing an effective loss of STR). So, we've got a Drain STR.

 

Tetrodotoxin Paralytic Darts: Drain STR 3d6, Range Based On STR (+1/4), Continuous (+1); OAF (blowgun; -1), 4 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Turn each (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), No Affect Versus rPD Or Appropriate LS (-1/2). Real Cost: 19 points.

 

There is no RKA bought as a delivery system, since the dart is so small it couldn't cause any physical damage to the target. It's simply represented by the "No Affect..." Limitation.

 

Would this work?

You might add Dex to the Drain. I often use a Drain: Str+Dex to simulate muscular paralysis. I would buy the Fade Rate down on the Time Chart as well, or your victim is going to get up pretty quickly. You might also consider adding an AVLD to the Drain, and making it work versus the character's "innate" rED (e.g. Damage Resistance not bought through a Focus) or something.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Tetrodotoxin

 

Interesting medical qips

 

The lungs are powered by muscles and IRL anything that induces near or total paralysis is going to kill simply because the muscles stop working. I think holding to your "it is like a RW poison" is what is steering the advice rather than this is a comicbook poison that paralyses but allows the person to continue breathing. I thought you were looking to mimic the effects of tetrodotoxin instead of using it as a special effect. Then again, I may be too close to the subject and trying to blend my career with my game.

Yeah. If you really want to simulate the effect, I would simply add Stun and Body to the Drain as well. It really is the easiest way to go, and will allow the victim to return to normal health if the poison is counteracted somehow.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Tetrodotoxin

 

Interesting medical qips

 

The lungs are powered by muscles and IRL anything that induces near or total paralysis is going to kill simply because the muscles stop working. I think holding to your "it is like a RW poison" is what is steering the advice rather than this is a comicbook poison that paralyses but allows the person to continue breathing. I thought you were looking to mimic the effects of tetrodotoxin instead of using it as a special effect. Then again, I may be too close to the subject and trying to blend my career with my game.

 

You might be right about the missunderstanding. But yes, I'm just using a real toxin as the SFX. The in-game effect isn't anymore harmful than your standard entangle based on coating the subject in a cube of ice would be. In real life this would be far far worse, but not for the purposes of the game I'm running.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Tetrodotoxin

 

You might add Dex to the Drain. I often use a Drain: Str+Dex to simulate muscular paralysis. I would buy the Fade Rate down on the Time Chart as well' date=' or your victim is going to get up pretty quickly. You might also consider adding an AVLD to the Drain, and making it work versus the character's "innate" rED (e.g. Damage Resistance not bought through a Focus) or something.[/quote']

 

We would have done just that, but the character only had those 19 points (well, 20 actually). He's planning on using a new SS: Toxicology skill to refine the toxin for greater effect as he gains XP.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Tetrodotoxin

 

Yeah. If you really want to simulate the effect' date=' I would simply add Stun and Body to the Drain as well. It really is the easiest way to go, and will allow the victim to return to normal health if the poison is counteracted somehow. [/quote']

 

If I wanted to add in the actual real-world effects, I would have just simulated a Choke Hold with an EB NND, with a naked Does BODY that only goes into affect after the target reaches 0 STUN. It's how I build most suffocations affects that don't just knock out a target.