Creation philosophy

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

In ANY version of Champions' date=' she's a winner in a physical fight. (215/216)*9*(7d6 or 5d6 NND) + only (1/216) of being hit + 30" of movement at 43 Dex and 9 SPD sees to that. And that's without Pushing or a Haymaker (which this character should only do, given her low defenses, if she's sure she can "one shot" the target).[/quote']

 

She won't be doing 5d6 NND every phase. That's 4 END a shot. If she doesn't move, she's out of END at the end of the first turn, but you expect her to move quite a bit based on your comments below. Pushing with the NND is out of the question (even if I viewed pushing as something you can do whenever you wnat, not only under unusual circumstances) thanks to the END issue.

 

Between the base CV of 14 + the 2 overall levels (which she will not need for offense vs the vast majority of Bricks so her base DCV is really at least 16 in that situation) + Martial Block/Dodge/FDodge (now we're up to at least DCV 18) + the 43 Dex + even a tiny amount of tactics no one is ever going to have better than a 1/216 chance of hitting her without an AoE attack...

 

Block/Dodge = phase given up = not attacking 9 times per turn. You've got her down to 4 attacks if she uses these maneuvers (or gets out of the way) for every counterattack vs a 5 SPD brick. 4 7d6 hits per turn against 25 DEF inflicts basically nothing - recovery will take care of it. The Brick can hold out as long as it takes to roll a "3".

 

...and then we get into the mobility implied by 30" run + 9 SPD + Teleport + etc which means even the AoE doesn't have better than 1/216 to hit unless Treb makes a tactical error (doubtful given his experience) or Z'lf is caught by surprise or the GM +REALLY+ piles it on...

 

Again, losing phases to Dive for Cover, plus halving DCV for any followup (unlikely one on one)

 

...and then we have Regeneration if she does get out-of-position and unlucky enough to get hit (but this is just icing).

 

If she takes a solid hit, she can readily be killed long before that first Regeneration will kick in. A solid hit will almost certainly Stun her (meaning her levels are gone since they need to be alocated after being stunned, so she's either DCV 7, or 14 if she recovers from being stunned).

 

...and she is such a Combat Monster that she may NOT be relevant to this thread because she's a game balance problem in every long term campaign I've ever been in or run.

 

Yet there apears to be no problem in Treb's game - many of the players/GM's in which post regularly on these boards. I think the problem is that she's an unfamiliar style. Very high DCV and mobility, coupled with very low damage capacity and poor defenses. I've never seen a character take these to the same extremes. We're all used to characters who can at least take one solid hit and come back for more.

 

This "Grond vs Z'lf" sub-thread makes me think of Hulk vs Quicksilver or Hulk vs SpiderMan. Hulk can't get a hit in. QS or Spidey can't do any damage. Stalemate.

 

In a cage match - one on one - I like Zl'f's odds. One opponent will have a tough time connecting, and she can burn phases on dive for cover, dodge, etc. so she just needs to find something in her repoertoire to damage the opponent.

 

In a team situation - not liking those odds as much. Area attacker forces DFC, which is followed by a shot from a couple of teammates while she's at reduced DCV. Or just keep her running around until she runs out of END, and watch her KO herself.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

That's not to say I don't like the character. OF COURSE I like the character and would beg to be allowed to play it... ... if I didn't care about game balance.

This comment says a lot if you really think you're the only person who cares about game balance. I have the XP to make Zl'f far more dangerous (and thus, correctly, unbalancing) in our campaign. I won't, because I want her where she is powerwise. Balanced for the campaign she actually plays in; not in some purely hypothetical "metacampaign." She might indeed be terribly unbalancing in your campaign. She doesn't play in your campaign; she plays in ours. If you doubt me, why not ask Mentor, Blackjack, or DangerousDan if she makes their characters feel like also-rans? If you're going to go off on a rant, wouldn't it make more sense to rant about something you've at least experienced or actually heard complaint about?

 

Without addressing your faulty and largely irrelevant tactical analysis of Zl'f's combat performance (You didn't seem to even notice her Regeneration takes an hour per BODY, meaning it's useful only after the fight is long over.), I'll point out that her "imbalance" exists only in your head. She plays in our campaign and not anyone else's. Not in CU, not in yours, not anywhere but the MidGuard campaign. Our GMs and my fellow players have no trouble dealing with her or her capabilities. She's a valued and essentially coequal member of our team. (Just as an example, in a fight she basically can't injure our brick Silhouette and our mentalist Prodigy could convince Zl'f she's the Tsarina of Russia in less time than it takes to type it.) She gets flattened by an attack which on average won't leak a single point of Stun through our brick's defenses. One or two EX or AoE attacks, even of reduced damage per hit due to damage caps (which we don't have) will put her out of any fight. An 8d6 AoE has a fair chance of Stunning her with a decent roll; an average 8d6 would be just 2 points below her CON.

 

Apparently in your campaign combatants just stand across from each other like Rock'em Sock'em Robotsâ„¢ and pound on each other until one falls down. Sorry, but we don't play Dragonball Zâ„¢; we're playing Champions. And heroes get hit, and hurt, in our game. Even the fast, agile ones. YMMV, of course.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

She won't be doing 5d6 NND every phase. That's 4 END a shot. If she doesn't move, she's out of END at the end of the first turn, but you expect her to move quite a bit based on your comments below. Pushing with the NND is out of the question (even if I viewed pushing as something you can do whenever you wnat, not only under unusual circumstances) thanks to the END issue.

Unless I missed something, her movement is 0 END, so she's moving as much as she wants to no matter what else she does.

 

Assuming the standard 1 END / 10 AP rule, 36 END is enough (in some cases barely) for her to throw 9 of any of her attacks per Turn.

 

 

Block/Dodge = phase given up = not attacking 9 times per turn. You've got her down to 4 attacks if she uses these maneuvers (or gets out of the way) for every counterattack vs a 5 SPD brick. 4 7d6 hits per turn against 25 DEF inflicts basically nothing - recovery will take care of it. The Brick can hold out as long as it takes to roll a "3".

1= This character only has to Block, Dodge, DFC, FDodge, etc under extraordinary circumstances. Her base DCV is _16_ even if she does nothing but put her overall levels on DCV. Given an opponent with a DCV of 8 or less, her base OCV of 14 means she's hitting (215/216) without putting any levels into OCV. So she's basically (215/216) to hit and only (1/216) to be hit f2f.

 

TBF, the 43 Dex is probably so high as to be wasteful, and Z'lf would be more effective if she had 37 Dex and 4 overall levels.

 

2= Even some AoE are susceptable to MD/MR (that last is really adding insult to injury)

 

 

Again, losing phases to Dive for Cover, plus halving DCV for any followup (unlikely one on one)

Bah humbug. Z'lf only has to DCF if she's surprised by a AoE attack. otherwise, she teleports out. And that's assuming anyone can figure out what hex she's in to target it for an AoE in the first place. She'll be using Block, Flying Dodge (This Maneuver is UGLY with her using it), and Dodge the vast majority of the time.

 

IF (and it's a big "if" one on one) Z'lf has to DFC, she has 15" worth of combat movement and 30" of noncombat movement as part of the maneuver to get her out of range of the next attack. In addition, her 43 Dex and 9 SPD means she is VERY likely getting to roll her Acrobatic Breakfall, making it 215/216 of the time, so she's no longer Prone BEFORE the attackers get another shot at her. In short, she's almost never going to be a 1/2 DCV unless something goes very wrong or there's a bunch of highly skilled attackers working together to tag her.

 

 

If she takes a solid hit, she can readily be killed long before that first Regeneration will kick in. A solid hit will almost certainly Stun her (meaning her levels are gone since they need to be alocated after being stunned, so she's either DCV 7, or 14 if she recovers from being stunned).

True. Never argued that her Regen was anything more than icing. As I said, my main issue is the extreme ratio between how easy it is for her to damage others vs. how hard it is for others to damage her.

 

 

Yet there apears to be no problem in Treb's game - many of the players/GM's in which post regularly on these boards. I think the problem is that she's an unfamiliar style. Very high DCV and mobility, coupled with very low damage capacity and poor defenses. I've never seen a character take these to the same extremes. We're all used to characters who can at least take one solid hit and come back for more.

We aren't there and we have no idea how hard the GM is working to deal with this character. OTOH, (and this is scary) it's possible that ALL of that characters in the MidGuard campaign are just as powerful in each their own way. If so, the GM must be really humping to give them challenges (or the players like cake walks).

 

 

This "Grond vs Z'lf" sub-thread makes me think of Hulk vs Quicksilver or Hulk vs SpiderMan. Hulk can't get a hit in. QS or Spidey can't do any damage. Stalemate.

Except she CAN do consistent damage unless the GM special designs / modifies an opponent. Z'lf will mop the floor with every Brick write-up I've ever seen. Being both the best MA AND the best Speedster I've ever seen, neither of those has any chance against her.

 

EB's is a stalemate... ...until Z'lf gets the initiative by MR or closes and then they are dead. With her MR and Dex + SPD + Teleport + all her other movement options Z'lf WILL get the initiative and/or close.

 

Egoists can nail her as long as they have LOS but Z'lf can't close... They DO have the best chance of taking her out since LOS is usually farther than EB range.

 

 

In a cage match - one on one - I like Zl'f's odds. One opponent will have a tough time connecting, and she can burn phases on dive for cover, dodge, etc. so she just needs to find something in her repoertoire to damage the opponent.

 

In a team situation - not liking those odds as much. Area attacker forces DFC, which is followed by a shot from a couple of teammates while she's at reduced DCV. Or just keep her running around until she runs out of END, and watch her KO herself.

Again, her movement is 0 END. Her 12 REC is plenty unless she's all-out attacking. Her 9 SPD and 43 Dex means she can hold actions and go whenever she wants better than any character you've ever seen.

 

The only ways to take her out are

A- "Trap her in an Area, then destroy the entire Area in one Phase"

B- Surprise with a big enough attack.

C- An Egoist who keeps LOS but does not allow her to close. That'll be almost impossible without additionally using A or B above.

D- The 1/2 Option. Fight her with herself.

 

As I said, I'd love to play her in an environment where I didn't care about game balance. She's Flash crossed with a MA.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

This comment says a lot if you really think you're the only person who cares about game balance.

W'oh, partner! Never said I was the only one. Just said that Z'lf would dominate every long term Champaigns campaign I've ever known.

 

I have the XP to make Zl'f far more dangerous (and thus, correctly, unbalancing) in our campaign. I won't, because I want her where she is powerwise. Balanced for the campaign she actually plays in; not in some purely hypothetical "metacampaign." ...

(rest of scolding snipped)

...and I've said as much. Please reread my posts. OTOH, just because she's balanced for the apparently outrageous combat level of MidGuard does not mean she's typical enough to be used as a prototypical example for this discussion.

 

Damage per Turn done vs survivability has always been my metric of combat balance, and by that standard Z'lf is BIG.

 

EDIT: How sure are you that she really is balanced combat wise to her other "Combat Heavy" team mates? MidGuard's Bricks must be HUGE. Their EB's living nuclear reactors. And their Egoists just flat out scary.

 

As I've said, she's a wonderful design in that she takes advantage of HERO's combat system in a way more players would never consider. That doesn't make her an appropriate model for this discussion or appropriate to be considered a "typical" character.

[Force]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Run her thru this combat rating system:

 

http://www.trimira.com/hero_stuff/combat_rating.html#

 

Let's see how she stacks up here.

[Gary]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

I always thought my character, Lariat, was the perfect blend of offense, defense, and flexibility without many limitations and nothing very questionable about her writeup.

 

 

Lariat

Ann Bowen

 

60 Str 50

30 Dex 60

33 Con 46

10 Body 0

18 Int 8

14 Ego 8

15 Pre 5

22 Com 6

12 PD 0

12 ED 5

6 SPD 20

15 Rec -8

66 End 0

57 Stun 0

 

200 characteristics cost

 

5 Extra limbs (force tendrils)

 

15 EC force tendrils

15 12/12 force field 1/2 end

11 5" stretching 1/2 end no noncombat stretching (-1/4) limited body parts (-1/4)

15 24" leap 1/2 end (36" total)

10 missile deflection all adjacent hexes cost end (-1/2)

9 360 degree spatial awareness +3 to perception roll cost end (-1/2) range limited to stretching (-1/4) touch sense group

 

16 8/8 armor OIF costume

 

7 explosion on 60 str personal immunity on explosion X10 end cost (-4) (emergency power)

 

103 powers cost

 

Martial arts

4 Fast Strike 14d6

3 Martial Grab 70 str

3 Martial Throw 12d6 + v/5

6 2 levels with MA

 

3 Acrobatics

3 Breakfall

 

22 pts combat skills

 

10 Very Wealthy

3 PS CEO 13-

3 PS Fashion Design 13-

3 KS Business World 13-

3 KS Textiles 13-

3 Bureaucratics 12-

 

25 pts perks and noncombat skills

 

350 total points

 

Total OCV/DCV of 10 with 2 levels. 32/32 def, 20 resistent.

 

Ann Bowen is a mutant who is superstrong, agile, and fast. She has the mutant power to convert her internal str into energy tendrils that can be used for a wide variety of effects. These energy tendrils can be manipulated by her as if they were an extension of herself. She can use them to cover her body (FF), push against the ground to travel far distances (superleap), make attacks and use fine manipulation at up to 10 meters away (stretching), block attacks (missile deflection), and she can use them to "feel" around her in a 10 meter radius (spatial awareness).

 

In emergencies, she can crack these tendrils almost like a whip, causing a massive sonic boom. She rarely does this as it is extremely debilitating (40 end for the explosion, 6 end for str, and 1 end for stretching for a total of 47 end spent!) and the property damage that is certain to arise from its use. However if pressed to use the attack, she normally tries to find a way to haymaker it. (18d6 explosion under 4th edition rules, 16d6 explosion under 5th edition). She can crack her sonic boom up to 10 meters away from herself.

 

In combat, she usually uses her martial strike or grab. She can grab or strike from 10 meters away. She has also been known to use tough grabbed opponents as shields with her missile deflection.

 

Appearance:

 

She is a beautiful woman in her late 20's with shoulder length dark hair (the actress I used for her was Mitzi Kapture from the show Silk Stalkings). She usually wears a mask when she appears as Lariat to hide her secret ID.

 

Profession:

 

She is the owner and CEO of Bowen Industries, a huge conglomerate that specializes in fashion. A very lucrative part of her business is making protective clothing of a special patented nature that feels like regular clothing, but protects like kevlar.

[Force]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

And here is a sample of my MA:

 

Black Lotus

 

Player: Jerry Ogburn

 

Val**	Char***	Cost
35**	STR	25
38**	DEX	84
33**	CON	46
15**	BODY	10
18**	INT	8
20**	EGO	20
20**	PRE	10
10**	COM	0
	*
16**	PD	0
16**	ED	0
7**	SPD	22
14**	REC	0
66**	END	0
50**	STUN	0

*9"**RUN62"**SWIM07"**LEAP0Characteristics Cost: 231

 

Cost**	Power	END
18**	Armor (9 PD/9 ED) (27 Active Points); OIF (-1/2)*
7**	Radio Perception/Transmission (10 Active Points); OIF (-1/2)*
5**	Gliding 12" (12 Active Points); OAF (-1), No Noncombat Movement (-1/4)*
3**	Infrared Perception (5 Active Points); OIF (-1/2)*
7**	Life Support , Self-Contained Breathing (10 Active Points); OIF (-1/2)*
3**	Life Support , Safe in Intense Cold, Safe in Intense Heat (4 Active Points); OIF (-1/2)*
6**	+6 Mental Defense (10 points total)*
5**	Healing 1 BODY, Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (20 Active Points); Extra Time (Regeneration-Only) 5 Minutes (-1 3/4), Self Only (-1/2), Always On (-1/2)*

Powers Cost: 54

 

Cost**	Martial Arts Maneuver
4**	Martial Strike: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +2 DCV, STR +5d6 Strike*
5**	Offensive Strike: 1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, +1 DCV, STR +7d6 Strike*
3**	Martial Throw: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +1 DCV, STR +3d6 +v/5, Target Falls*
4**	Martial Block: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Block, Abort*
4**	Martial Dodge: 1/2 Phase, -- OCV, +5 DCV, Dodge, Affects All Attacks, Abort*
12**	+3 HTH Damage Class(es)*

Martial Arts Cost: 32

 

Cost**	Skill
3**	Acrobatics 17-*
3**	Stealth 17-*
3**	Interrogation 13-*
3**	Streetwise 13-*
3**	Security Systems 13-*
3**	Criminology 13-*
3**	Shadowing 13-*
3**	AK: Japan (INT-based) 13-*
3**	KS: Eastern/Martial Philosophy (INT-based) 13-*
3**	SS: Botany (INT-based) 13-*
3**	Language: Japanese (fluent conversation; literate)*
20**	+4 with HTH Combat*
20**	+2 Overall*

Skills Cost: 73

 

Cost**	Perk
5**	Money: Well Off*

Perks Cost: 5

 

 

 

Total Character Cost: 395

 

Val**	Disadvantages
15**	Social Limitation: Secret Identity Frequently (11-), Major*
10**	Psychological Limitation: Vigilante Common, Moderate*
10**	Psychological Limitation: Overconfident Common, Moderate*
15**	Psychological Limitation: Protects Innocents (Common; Strong)*
20**	Psychological Limitation: Code Versus Killing Common, Total*
10**	Enraged: Innocent Hurt (Common), go 8-, recover 14-*
15**	Susceptibility: End Drain 3d6 damage, Instant, Uncommon*
10**	Vulnerability: 2x Effect End Drain Uncommon*
10**	Hunted: Law Enforcement 11- (Frequently), As Powerful, Watching, Extensive Non-Combat Influence*
25**	Hunted: Organization 11-, More Powerful, Harshly Punish, Extensive Non-Combat Influence*
15**	Hunted: Villian 11- (Frequently), As Powerful, Harshly Punish*

Disadvantage Points: 155

 

Base Points: 200

Experience Required: 40

Total Experience Available: 40

Experience Unspent: 0

[Ki-rin]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Run her thru this combat rating system:

 

http://www.trimira.com/hero_stuff/combat_rating.html#

 

Let's see how she stacks up here.

 

Cost Martial Arts Maneuver

12 +3 Hand to Hand Damage Classes

5 Sacrifice Strike: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, -2 DCV, 10d6 Strike

4 Martial Strike: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +2 DCV, 8d6 Strike

4 Shove: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, 45 STR to Shove

3 Legsweep/Wrist Throw: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, -1 DCV, 7d6 Strike, Target Falls

3 Martial Throw: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +1 DCV, 6d6 +v/5, Target Falls

4 Martial Block: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Block, Abort

4 Martial Dodge: 1/2 Phase, -- OCV, +5 DCV, Dodge, Affects All Attacks, Abort

5 Flying Dodge: 1/2 Phase, -- OCV, +4 DCV, Dodge All Attacks, Abort; FMove

4 Martial Escape: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, 45 STR vs. Grabs

3 Martial Grab: 1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, -1 DCV, Grab Two Limbs, 40 STR for holding on

2 Weapon Element: Empty Hand, Staffs, Sticks

Martial Arts Cost: 53

I used her 8d6 Martial Strike with +3DCs added and 16/16 OCV/DCV as her main attack. (yes, it seems I was way too low about how much damage she does...)

 

I also think there may be an error on the character sheet with regard to her defenses? 15/5+3= 6 PD, 43/5+2= 11 ED. Add 6 levels of Combat Luck and 2 levels of Damage Resistance to each and you get 14 PD and 19 ED?

 

Assuming I did this right, Z'lf has a CR= OR + DR + MR = 50 + 54 + 61 = 165

According to that page.

 

How "good" that is according to the rating system on that page, I have no idea.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Assuming the standard 1 END / 10 AP rule' date=' 36 END is enough (in some cases barely) for her to throw 9 of any of her attacks per Turn. [/quote']

 

I generally worry about more than one turn, but she will have an END problem only if using exotic attacks consistently. She should be able to use that 8d6 Martial Srike (15 STR + 3 DC + 2d6 for maneuver) inexhaustibly. It averages 28 STUN per hit. Are the Bricks in your game really fragile enough that 28 average damage (before defenses) will topple them?

 

Lariat (posted by Gary above) will take nothing from an average hit. Sooner or later, she will hit back. I know Lariat wasn't designed to take Z'lf out - Gary posted her many months ago.

 

This character only has to Block' date=' Dodge, DFC, FDodge, etc under extraordinary circumstances. Her base DCV is _16_ even if she does nothing but put her overall levels on DCV. Given an opponent with a DCV of 8 or less, her base OCV of 14 means she's hitting (215/216) without putting any levels into OCV. So she's basically (215/216) to hit and only (1/216) to be hit f2f.[/quote']

 

On the assumption the opponent is 8 OCV. I don't see that very often. I see a lot of "base OCV" supers, but most have some way of boosting their OCV unless they hit areas or target using Ego.

 

Even some AoE are susceptable to MD/MR (that last is really adding insult to injury)

 

1 hex accurate, and Selective. Are these what you would use to target a DCV Freak? I'd use a normal explosion, AE 1 hex or full AE.

 

Bah humbug. Z'lf only has to DCF if she's surprised by a AoE attack. otherwise' date=' she teleports out.[/quote']

 

She has to have a phase available. Should she just stand and reserve until her opponent moves? If I had a 3 SPD to her 9, a waiting game would be ideal for me, not for her.

 

And that's assuming anyone can figure out what hex she's in to target it for an AoE in the first place. She'll be using Block' date=' Flying Dodge (This Maneuver is UGLY with her using it), and Dodge the vast majority of the time.[/quote']

 

You add something the game doesn't. I can target where you are. Not knowing what hex you're in is an issue only if I'm blind or you're invisible. And, again, she has to choose which phases to use these maneuvers in.

 

cIF (and it's a big "if" one on one) Z'lf has to DFC, she has 15" worth of combat movement and 30" of noncombat movement as part of the maneuver to get her out of range of the next attack.

 

Assuming that space exists (some fights are indoors) and assuming she wants to get that far away and have to come back to attack. If she wants to flee, my money's on her all the way.

 

In addition' date=' her 43 Dex and 9 SPD means she is VERY likely getting to roll her Acrobatic Breakfall, making it 215/216 of the time, so she's no longer Prone BEFORE the attackers get another shot at her. In short, she's almost never going to be a 1/2 DCV unless something goes very wrong or there's a bunch of highly skilled attackers working together to tag her.[/quote']

 

Two atackers will do. Once she dives for cover, she gets no action until her next phase. You can't avoid "prone" from DFC with skill rolls, so she's prone. The second attacker fires while she's prone.

 

Except she CAN do consistent damage unless the GM special designs / modifies an opponent. Z'lf will mop the floor with every Brick write-up I've ever seen. Being both the best MA AND the best Speedster I've ever seen' date=' neither of those has any chance against her. [/quote']

 

I suspect Z'lf's campaign precedes the mass DEF reduction wer saw with 5e, so Bricks she fights have better than 20 PD.

 

EB's is a stalemate... ...until Z'lf gets the initiative by MR or closes and then they are dead. With her MR and Dex + SPD + Teleport + all her other movement options Z'lf WILL get the initiative and/or close.

 

I don't believe Z'lf can fly, so that restricts her options. Many EP's have area effect attacks.

 

Egoists can nail her as long as they have LOS but Z'lf can't close... They DO have the best chance of taking her out since LOS is usually farther than EB range.

 

Our egoist is lightly defended, although she can fly and normally does to restrict opponents' options. She could easily take the Phase 12 8d6 Srike, and hit Z'lf with an ego blast. My quick scan sees no mental defense, so 6d6 Stuns her most of the time. Once stunned, she is easy prey (most likely for my character's DEX drain - tremble in fear, Z'lf!). Our mentalist would more likely Illusion her to swap friends with enemies, but that's another story.

 

A sight Flash that hits an area woud put paid to her pretty quick, or any kind of adjustment attack that, again, covers an area. My guess is that half of any typical Superteam has an attack that could connect with her, and that this attack would cause her serious problems, if not remove her outright from the fight. But the characters would have to have better tactics than "Never reserve; close in; trade punches".

[Force]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

I used her 8d6 Martial Strike with +3DCs added and 16/16 OCV/DCV as her main attack. (yes, it seems I was way too low about how much damage she does...)

 

I also think there may be an error on the character sheet with regard to her defenses? 15/5+3= 6 PD, 43/5+2= 11 ED. Add 6 levels of Combat Luck and 2 levels of Damage Resistance to each and you get 14 PD and 19 ED?

 

Assuming I did this right, Z'lf has a CR= OR + DR + MR = 50 + 54 + 61 = 165

According to that page.

 

How "good" that is according to the rating system on that page, I have no idea.

 

It means she is pretty damn powerful. My 6spd/80str/40def/80stun martial brick's total was about 135 with OR=41 DR=66 MR=27. Most 350-400 point characters should be in the 110ish to 130ish range. Anymore than a 10 point difference in a category (OR/DR/MR) means that your character is either outclassed or outclasses a character in that category.

 

However, from the write-up posted here she would not like my brick very much. Most MA's don't like fighting bricks. If she did not make a tactical mistake she might be able to take my brick out, but since my def outclasses her offense by so much, she might not be able to do sufficient damage before I connected with her.

 

What makes her so insanely good, imo, is the fact she has 43 dex/9spd with 30" of movement.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

I used her 8d6 Martial Strike with +3DCs added and 16/16 OCV/DCV as her main attack. (yes, it seems I was way too low about how much damage she does...)

 

I also think there may be an error on the character sheet with regard to her defenses? 15/5+3= 6 PD, 43/5+2= 11 ED. Add 6 levels of Combat Luck and 2 levels of Damage Resistance to each and you get 14 PD and 19 ED?

 

Assuming I did this right, Z'lf has a CR= OR + DR + MR = 50 + 54 + 61 = 165

According to that page.

 

How "good" that is according to the rating system on that page, I have no idea.

Are you even capable of reading a character sheet; or are you simply so determined to "prove" your non-existant point you can't even see the reality? Zl'f does a maximum of 10d6 including Damage Classes. Her 5d6 NND is equivalent to 10DC. It could be argued her 7d6 Variable (with up to +1/2 Advantages such as AP or AoE) is equal to 10.5 DC, but at 4X the END of her 10d6 Sacrifice Strike it's not much if any more effective. (I have in fact deliberately prevented her combined SPD + DC from equaling 20 because that's the guideline we use in our campaign for rough combat balance.)

 

Zl'f has 12 PD. 12 ED. Period. Two thirds of it is Resistant, and one half of it is Hardened (Combat Luck). She has TWO levels of Combat Luck, not six. Would it help if I sent you the HD file so you can read it on your preferred character format?

 

She does not operate in an environment without AoE or EX attacks. How many times must I run this past you? She Gets Hit and Hurt All The Time. Even agents can have EX attacks (as in "grenades." Perhaps you've heard of those?). Her Missile Deflection/Reflection works against bullets, which means she's great at stomping agents and mooks if they've got guns but not so hot if they're sporting blasters or other energy-type weapons. (And her CvK would prevent her from Deflecting bullets back even at mooks. It's another ability she has but almost never uses; I think she's used in 3 or 4 times in 12 years of play.)

 

Her "Teleport" is a mere conceptual part of her schtick to represent moving very fast, as should have been evident if you'd actually bothered to read it. (She's used in combat once in her entire career, and once out of combat to pass a sentry without being seen. Big fight winner there. ) Not only is it less distance than she can move in a Half Move (11" TP vs 15" Running), but she has to pass through intervening spaces, meaning it can't get her past bars or walls. It also takes 4 times the END a half move would:

 

Blink of an Eye: Teleportation 11", No Relative Velocity, Position Shift; Restrainable (-1/2), Must Pass Through Intervening Space (-1/4), No Noncombat Movement (-1/4), OIHID (-1/4), Affected by SPD or DEX Drains (-1/4)

 

Her Running costs her 1 or 2 END per Phase (While the extra +10" in her MP has 0 END Cost, the regular 6" does not and the 14" is half END.), not zero.

 

I can't address the "combat effectiveness" formula that you quoted. Not only do I think such things are a waste of time in the first place since they cannot compensate for player expertise, house rules, the combat environment, and any vulnerabilities the character or hypothetical opponent may have, but even then they are but crude estimates. Keneton ran Zl'f through his Combat Ratings spreadsheet himself a while back and IIRC her overall CR was around 93. Not bad, but that hardly makes an her unstoppable goddess of destruction as you seem to think. You even admit you might not have done it right and you still don't know what the number quoted means, yet you're perfectly willing to attack my character on that basis. (165 what?)

 

She's not a wimp by any means, but you're painting her as some kind of unstoppable combat machine. I'm telling you that's not the case, at least as I run her. Some other player may use her differently. Zl'f is fully as powerful as you'd expect a 403 point character to be in a 350 point campaign: A founding member of Earth's most powerful hero team. (Of course, all her teammates are within 10 or fewer points of 400 also.)

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

I suspect Z'lf's campaign precedes the mass DEF reduction wer saw with 5e' date=' so Bricks she fights have better than 20 PD.[/quote']Yes, it does. Our campaign started in 1992 as 250 point Standard under 4e. The earliest version of this character (called Flash Dancer) I started the campaign with had 1 more PD & ED, a 23 CON, more Stun, and a 1d6 higher maximum attack. Her earlier version could also run a Mach 2. So her earlier "weaker" version was actually tougher in combat than she was when I redesigned her for 5e with 350 points and rebuilt her as a super-gymnast as she was originally intended.

 

Our campaign had already drifted towards the fewer hits/lower defenses philosophy Steve Long and the DOJ gang came up with for Champions Fifth Edition. In fact, Mentor and I joked that we knew Steve and Darren must be geniuses because they agreed with us!

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

I always thought my character' date=' Lariat, was the perfect blend of offense, defense, and flexibility without many limitations and nothing very questionable about her writeup. [/quote']A cool character, Gary, and a brick who would be a very tough opponent indeed for Zl'f or other low-damage MAs. I think Zl'f would probably win, but I'd hate to fight the 400 point version of Lariat after she gets some XP.

 

(Kinda makes me wonder why 43 DEX is somehow out of line for an MA according to some, but nobody even blinked at a brick with a 30 DEX, martial arts, and two combat levels.)

[Gary]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Just as a note, Zl'f's NND should be 4.5d6 not 5d6. Also I find Restrainable a little dubious for a character's hands/feet or arms/legs since that is a normal default. Then again if wings/tail can take that limitation, there doesn't seem to be any logical reason that arms/legs couldn't either.

[Gary]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

A cool character, Gary, and a brick who would be a very tough opponent indeed for Zl'f or other low-damage MAs. I think Zl'f would probably win, but I'd hate to fight the 400 point version of Lariat after she gets some XP.

 

(Kinda makes me wonder why 43 DEX is somehow out of line for an MA according to some, but nobody even blinked at a brick with a 30 DEX, martial arts, and two combat levels.)

 

 

I think Lariat would win. Zl'f simply doesn't do enough damage, and Lariat has the defense to her NND. Lariat can also muster up a 14 OCV if necessary, which means she'll at least occasionally hit. That's not even mentioning the Explosion...

 

Still, it would be an interesting fight.

 

 

The one she'd be terrified of is Black Lotus. But at least she can always run away anytime she wanted to.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Just as a note' date=' Zl'f's NND should be 4.5d6 not 5d6. Also I find Restrainable a little dubious for a character's hands/feet or arms/legs since that is a normal default. Then again if wings/tail can take that limitation, there doesn't seem to be any logical reason that arms/legs couldn't either.[/quote']Given that she has to have full freedom of movement to use it, I think Restrainable is valid. OIW, she couldn't use it against an opponent who had her arms pinned.

 

I checked the NND, and 5d6 is correct. Because the defenses are so common, the NND has a lesser value per 5e.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

I think Lariat would win. Zl'f simply doesn't do enough damage, and Lariat has the defense to her NND. Lariat can also muster up a 14 OCV if necessary, which means she'll at least occasionally hit. That's not even mentioning the Explosion...

 

Still, it would be an interesting fight.

 

 

The one she'd be terrified of is Black Lotus. But at least she can always run away anytime she wanted to.

I didn't even notice the Explosion. Ow! Of course, Lariat had better hope that works because if it doesn't she'll be out of END.

 

Now let's see if Ki-Rin thinks Lariat is also "unbalancingly powerful"? She must be; she could beat Zl'f!!

[Gary]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Given that she has to have full freedom of movement to use it, I think Restrainable is valid. OIW, she couldn't use it against an opponent who had her arms pinned.

 

I checked the NND, and 5d6 is correct. Because the defenses are so common, the NND has a lesser value per 5e.

 

I personally wouldn't rule that the defenses are very common, but if it works for your campaign, that's ok. Besides, we're only quibbling about 1/2d6 anyway.

[Gary]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

I didn't even notice the Explosion. Ow! Of course, Lariat had better hope that works because if it doesn't she'll be out of END.

 

Now let's see if Ki-Rin thinks Lariat is also "unbalancingly powerful"? She must be; she could beat Zl'f!!

 

 

All Lariat has to do is wait until after Zl'f has made an attack to unload the Explosion.

 

Honestly however, Lariat doesn't even need the Explosion to win. Zl'f's options are the Sacrifice Strike which would average 3.98 Stun through defenses and leave her at -2 DCV, Martial Strike which averages .55 Stun through defenses, or a 7d6 Armor Piercing Super Speed Strikes at 5 End a popl which will average 8.5 Stun through defenses. Obviously the last one is the best option, but she only has enough End for 7 attacks or less if she's using any Running, and her DCV is 16 if she uses her Overall Levels in defense. Lariat can hit on a 9- against that DCV, which means that it's extremely unlikely that she'll miss the 7 times needed before Zl'f whittles her down.

 

Actually, Lariat was considered too powerful in her original form. The GM asked me to drop her Dex/Spd to 23/5 for the campaign.

[Victim]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Zl'f seems dangerous, but not unbeatable. Also, she doesn't seem like a very forgiving character. Her attacks drop off quickly in effectiveness against higher Def foes, and many enemies will be able to circumvent her DCV. If you mess up one phase, then Zl'f will probably be knocked out for the rest of the fight.

 

Lariat is scary. 30 Dex, up to 32/32 defenses, and a 15d6 attack at 14 OCV.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

All Lariat has to do is wait until after Zl'f has made an attack to unload the Explosion.

 

Honestly however, Lariat doesn't even need the Explosion to win. Zl'f's options are the Sacrifice Strike which would average 3.98 Stun through defenses and leave her at -2 DCV, Martial Strike which averages .55 Stun through defenses, or a 7d6 Armor Piercing Super Speed Strikes at 5 End a popl which will average 8.5 Stun through defenses. Obviously the last one is the best option, but she only has enough End for 7 attacks or less if she's using any Running, and her DCV is 16 if she uses her Overall Levels in defense. Lariat can hit on a 9- against that DCV, which means that it's extremely unlikely that she'll miss the 7 times needed before Zl'f whittles her down.

 

Actually, Lariat was considered too powerful in her original form. The GM asked me to drop her Dex/Spd to 23/5 for the campaign.

Well, it's not like Lariat would be the first brick or EB who clobbered Zl'f with an area effect attack of some sort; a fact I can't seem to get through to Ki-Rin. Tactics and Powers both matter in a fight. At least she probably wouldn't take any BODY from the explosion, although she might actually Recover before Lariat got to finish her. (She'd only go to -1 Stun after defenses.)

 

It's still a very cool concept even reduced a bit in power.

[nexus]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

I haven't seen a character with a 7d6 attack cause such an uproar before.

[Gary]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

I haven't seen a character with a 7d6 attack cause such an uproar before.

 

 

The biggest danger is the NND. Against virtually anyone without the defense and who needs to get in HTH range, Zl'f would eat them alive. The Variable Advantage HA could also take out many targets very quickly if Zl'f uses Armor Piercing or Autofire as the Advantage.

 

Of course this is balanced out by her extreme vulnerability to any sort of area effect or explosion attacks.

[Mike W]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

It sounds like that's working well for you. Could you talk more about what you do to achieve a balance of characters who last about two turns' date=' and speed (and simplicity?) in combat.[/quote']

 

Okay, some of this goes back to the previous GM, but his philosophy is similar(since he was the guy who broke me in as a GM, though we tended to think alike in Champs philosophy anyway). We started by building all of the mainline heroes to serve as baselines. Capt. America, Superman, Thor, Iron Man, the FF, and so on. In building the characters, keep in mind the 4 magnatude rule I've talked about before. It should be a rare character who falls outside the middle 4 ranks. When building Defenses, figure that a hero with average defenses should take about 10-15 STUN per hit from an average attack. So if the average attack is 10D6(35 STUN), then average DEF should be around 23(12 STUN per hit). This mean's characters take about 4 hits to go down. Keep CVs under control and your hit percentage will increase(11- is a 62% roll, and a 7 OCV trying to hit 8 DCV is still 50-50). This means attacks hit a little more often. A 4 SPD character with a 50-50 chance will get 4 hits in two turns - about enough to take out one character. If you want guys to be tougher, buy 10 extra STUN, that lets you take one more hit without adding to your DEF. The extra DEF tends to start an arms race that throws power balance into chaos.

 

Once combat starts, make sure that the GM has chart handy that lists everyone's SPD, DEX, and EGO at a minimum, that makes it easy for the GM to move down the list and say "Proteus" is up or "Blue Bomber" is up, or whatever. I find it works best to sort the chart from highest to lowest DEX and use SPD as a tiebreaker, although I usually list mentalists by their EGO.

 

For players, we have our own particular character sheet designs that keep all of our attacks, combat levels and the like in one spot. Some even go so far as to list their CVs with their favorite maneuvers to save time on the math.

 

The combat map has an acetate sheet on it for us to write on, so that we can quickly lay out the battlefield. Heroes get minatures, villains get dice so it's easy to figure out where the targets are. I usually try to match die colors to the villain's costume(so Carnage gets a red die, Rhino a grey one etc).

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

The biggest danger is the NND. Against virtually anyone without the defense and who needs to get in HTH range, Zl'f would eat them alive. The Variable Advantage HA could also take out many targets very quickly if Zl'f uses Armor Piercing or Autofire as the Advantage.

 

Of course this is balanced out by her extreme vulnerability to any sort of area effect or explosion attacks.

Zl'f has never actually used the NND in combat, and most of the villains she'd be likely to need it against, such as bricks, are fairly likely to have the proper defense anyway. Autofire X3 takes too much END, although it's a great fight stopper against an opponent with low defenses like another MA (7d6 just won't bother most bricks). Her most common use of the VA is Penetrating. She doesn't generally fight the enemy's brick; that's more Silhouette's forte. Zl'f takes on the MA's and non-flying EB's; and assists other teammates as she can.

 

I started thumbing through CKC after this thread got going, and there are quite a few bricks in there with 12+ OCVs after levels that would have a fair chance of tagging Zl'f in combat (far from Ki-Rin's 1 out of 216; some of these guys would have nearly 50% odds). She'd have to Block a lot of those attacks to stay in the fight, and those become Phases she can't attack in.