Creation philosophy

[OddHat]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

I wouldn't ever ask for such permission' date=' and would refuse it if granted. That [i']would[/i] make her grossly unbalanced.

 

Generally, if the character is using a weapon for his HA, and if that weapon carries advantages, I will allow those advantages to apply to MA maneuvers (one example would be a Ghost-Cutting Sword in a Wuxia campaign). However, I'd take that into account when deciding if the character was appropriate for the campaign in the first place.

[Force]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

No' date=' she hits for 10 DC [i']unless she Pushes.[/i] And with 9 SPD she doesn't have enough END to Push regularly in combat.

 

Str=15 is 3dc

Martial strike= 2dc

+3dc Martial arts =3dc

 

That's 8d6 right?

 

Add +4d6hth with zero end (from the multipower) and that makes 12d6 right?

 

Advantages only don't add to martial damage right? You still get to use hth right? Zero end does not add to damage.

 

I am thinking that this specifically applied to things like AP, Pen, so on and so forth.

 

Unless I have missed something completely...

[Ki-rin]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

As I said, the version of Cap I'm referencing here =IS= a 650-700 CP character.

To make him a proper Homage Build, most of those points are in places that are irrelevant to a battle between Z'lf and Cap. Z'lf OTOH, is a very focused character concept. In short, Z'lf is a variant on the "one trick pony" character we've all dealt with before, it's just that her "one trick" is a VERY flexible and powerful trick system wise.

 

Oh and...

MD/MR will Block and Reflect a Bounced shield just as effectively as a non bounced one. Cap may get a +1 to +3 Surprise Bonus, but that's it.

 

Z'lf STILL gets to choose between full defense (in which case no one is touching her) or MR that 12d6 right back at Cap.

 

And Treb, She IS a MA/Speedster. It's her Dex and SPD that make her MA as effective as they are. In effect, she does, and needs to, use her SPD as a weapon.

[Gary]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

As I said, the version of Cap I'm referencing here =IS= a 650-700 CP character.

To make him a proper Homage Build, most of those points are in places that are irrelevant to a battle between Z'lf and Cap. Z'lf OTOH, is a very focused character concept. In short, Z'lf is a variant on the "one trick pony" character we've all dealt with before, it's just that her "one trick" is a VERY flexible and powerful trick system wise.

 

Oh and...

MD/MR will Block and Reflect a Bounced shield just as effectively as a non bounced one. Cap may get a +1 to +3 Surprise Bonus, but that's it.

 

Z'lf STILL gets to choose between full defense (in which case no one is touching her) or MR that 12d6 right back at Cap.

 

And Treb, She IS a MA/Speedster. It's her Dex and SPD that make her MA as effective as they are. In effect, she does, and needs to, use her SPD as a weapon.

 

 

Who the heck cares if she's untouchable with a full defense? So is Spiderman, only Zl'f does a lot less damage. Being hard to hit is Zl'f's Schtick! The bottom line is that even your version of Cap with 26 Dex and 4 levels could handily beat her if she stands and fights. Most likely she'd just use her 30" of Running to scram.

 

Zl'f is powerful and there are many characters that she could beat (as well as many she'd lose to). That doesn't make her in any way unbalanced.

 

Besides, when has Captain America been the acid test on whether a character is too powerful?

[Force]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Who the heck cares if she's untouchable with a full defense? So is Spiderman' date=' only Zl'f does a lot less damage. Being hard to hit is Zl'f's [i']Schtick[/i]! The bottom line is that even your version of Cap with 26 Dex and 4 levels could handily beat her if she stands and fights. Most likely she'd just use her 30" of Running to scram.

 

Zl'f is powerful and there are many characters that she could beat (as well as many she'd lose to). That doesn't make her in any way unbalanced.

 

Besides, when has Captain America been the acid test on whether a character is too powerful?

 

I don't think anyone is really saying she is too powerful. It's that she is not as weak as she is being portrayed.

 

Is she invincible? Heck no.

 

Is she very powerful martial artist? You bet.

 

Is she unbalanced for her campaign? Doesn't sound like it to me.

 

And Cap has always been a good litmus test for martial artists.

[Beetle]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Besides' date=' when has Captain America been the acid test on whether a character is too powerful?[/quote']Good point. How does she fare compared to Bulldozer?

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

ROTFLMAO!! Thanks Alice, I +NEEDED+ that.

 

EDIT: Oh God, I;'m still laughing so hard I can barely type... ...or breathe

Um. Okay.

 

You're welcome?

 

o v O

 

(this is what happens when I try to post to a NORMAL thread . . .)

[Mike W]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Actually, I think Cap is a good acid test for martial artists and CVs since he is Marvel's acknowledged "best hand to hand fighter in the world". Martial artists who are significantly better than Cap or anyone with higher CVs is either playing in a campaign where the power level is much higher or is out of balance with the campaign and it's up to the GM to determine which.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Who the heck cares if she's untouchable with a full defense? So is Spiderman' date=' only Zl'f does a lot less damage. Being hard to hit is Zl'f's [i']Schtick[/i]!

It means she can control how much she gets hurt and when. IOW, she ALWAYS has control of the ebb and flow of the battle. In chess and go we call it "tempo". If you don't see how tactically valuable total control over tempo is, you are not the gamer I think you are.

 

The bottom line is that even your version of Cap with 26 Dex and 4 levels could handily beat her if she stands and fights. Most likely she'd just use her 30" of Running to scram.

Ummm, no he can't. Unless he gets a shot in, and the odds are against it, Z'lf rates to win a one on one between them.

 

Zl'f is powerful and there are many characters that she could beat (as well as many she'd lose to). That doesn't make her in any way unbalanced.

THE POINT is that Z'lf and Lariat are so powerful as to be campaign breakers for the vast majority of long term Champions campaigns I've ever seen or heard of. They are WAY too powerful to even be considered as viable for the vast majority of 350-400 CP Champions games. Multiple methods of analyzing them have been brought to bear and all agree to make that point and still somehow you and Treb persist downplaying just how Combat Monster they are.

 

Using them as a basis for discussion regarding what is fair for typical Champions campaigns is a fatally flawed premise for that exact reason. We need to discuss character concepts that are balanced for the typical 350-400 CP Champions campaign in order to validly examine the topic of this thread.

 

Besides, when has Captain America been the acid test on whether a character is too powerful?

Again, missing the point. The Homage version of Cap is a 650-700 CP Combat Expert, yet he's not a god or anything gross like that. HE IS TOO POWERFUL TO BE A PC IN THE TYPICAL CHAMPIONS CAMPAIGN AND EITHER LARIAT OR Z'LF HAVE A GOOD CHANCE TO MAKE MINCEMEAT OF HIM. If he's too powerful for a 350 CP campaign and your characters can toast him... ...am I getting through yet?

 

 

The topic is "Creation Philosophy". Lariat and Z'lf are great demonstrations of what should be out of bounds for a typical Champions campaign. What I'm NOT hearing is advice to GMs as to how to define those bounds in such a way as to maximize people's choices and fun while having a way to identify the game breakers like Lariat and Z'lf before it's too late.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Um. Okay.

 

You're welcome?

 

o v O

 

(this is what happens when I try to post to a NORMAL thread . . .)

*in Oliver Twist accent*

"Pretty, pretty, please mum? What is a NORMAL thread? and where can I find one?"

 

(or did you mean "normal" as in "perpendicular to Reality"?...)

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

I'd like to see a 350 pt character from Ki'rin that is useful in combat and not "game unbalancing". I think all characters in one regard or another are.

 

Shardik and The Greek are two good examples of that.

[OddHat]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Actually' date=' I think Cap is a good acid test for martial artists and CVs since he is Marvel's acknowledged "best hand to hand fighter in the world". Martial artists who are significantly better than Cap or anyone with higher CVs is either playing in a campaign where the power level is much higher or is out of balance with the campaign and it's up to the GM to determine which.[/quote']

 

There is no one official Hero System write up of Captain America, and if there were then GMs wold still change it from campaign to campaign. One write up of Cap might place him with a max OCV of 20 (Legendary Dex + 4 w/ MA +4 Overall + Fast Strike) while another might place him with a max OCV of 12 or lower. Out of context, neither write-up would be more correct.

 

In Zl'f's game world, if the GM decides that Cap is a better HtH fighter than Zl'f, he'll design Cap accordingly.

[Mike W]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

There is no one official Hero System write up of Captain America, and if there were then GMs wold still change it from campaign to campaign. One write up of Cap might place him with a max OCV of 20 (Legendary Dex + 4 w/ MA +4 Overall + Fast Strike) while another might place him with a max OCV of 12 or lower. Out of context, neither write-up would be more correct.

 

In Zl'f's game world, if the GM decides that Cap is a better HtH fighter than Zl'f, he'll design Cap accordingly.

 

True, but the point I was trying to make is that when we make characters, we often have comic book characters in mind, whether we are making an "homage" character or just trying to gauge power levels. So whatever Cap's writeup is for the campaign, he serves as a useful guide to the upper limits of martial artists and CVs.

 

I do think that the argument over Z'lf, Lariat, etc has derailed the thread a bit though. The argument is more about the characters and not about how to balance a particular campaign world, whether you are playing street level or highpowered, or whatever.

[Gary]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

It means she can control how much she gets hurt and when. IOW' date=' she ALWAYS has control of the ebb and flow of the battle. In chess and go we call it "tempo". If you don't see how tactically valuable total control over tempo is, you are not the gamer I think you are. [/quote']

 

I repeat. That's Zl'f's schtick. Any character with lots of movements and speed has the same advantage. Would you consider Quicksilver too powerful even though he can completely control the tempo against Cap?

 

Ummm, no he can't. Unless he gets a shot in, and the odds are against it, Z'lf rates to win a one on one between them.

 

With an OCV of 15??? You don't think he can land one single blow against a DCV 16 Zl'f? And it only takes one single hit to take her out. She probably needs 5-6 hits at least to take him out.

 

 

THE POINT is that Z'lf and Lariat are so powerful as to be campaign breakers for the vast majority of long term Champions campaigns I've ever seen or heard of. They are WAY too powerful to even be considered as viable for the vast majority of 350-400 CP Champions games. Multiple methods of analyzing them have been brought to bear and all agree to make that point and still somehow you and Treb persist downplaying just how Combat Monster they are.

 

Those 'methods' of analysis has Zl'f grossly overpowered. Anyone with an Area Effect, Explosion, Flight, Darkness, Mental, high skill levels, etc can take her out. I mean what kind of wimps do you create in your world where 8d6 attacks are serious danger?

 

 

Using them as a basis for discussion regarding what is fair for typical Champions campaigns is a fatally flawed premise for that exact reason. We need to discuss character concepts that are balanced for the typical 350-400 CP Champions campaign in order to validly examine the topic of this thread.

 

You're making an assertion that Zl'f isn't balanced for a 350-400 campaign. I disagree since her lack of defenses and damage seriously limits her effectiveness.

 

Again, missing the point. The Homage version of Cap is a 650-700 CP Combat Expert, yet he's not a god or anything gross like that. HE IS TOO POWERFUL TO BE A PC IN THE TYPICAL CHAMPIONS CAMPAIGN AND EITHER LARIAT OR Z'LF HAVE A GOOD CHANCE TO MAKE MINCEMEAT OF HIM. If he's too powerful for a 350 CP campaign and your characters can toast him... ...am I getting through yet?

 

The Homage version of Cap probably has 150+ pts of noncombat skills and abilities. He also retains most of his abilities even if Dex drained or grabbed, and doesn't spend lots of time in a weaker identity. Please don't compare raw points.

 

The topic is "Creation Philosophy". Lariat and Z'lf are great demonstrations of what should be out of bounds for a typical Champions campaign. What I'm NOT hearing is advice to GMs as to how to define those bounds in such a way as to maximize people's choices and fun while having a way to identify the game breakers like Lariat and Z'lf before it's too late.

 

 

It's up to the individual GM, not a blanket rule made up by some random guy on the internet.

[Force]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

It's up to the individual GM, not a blanket rule made up by some random guy on the internet.

 

So what you are saying is that this thread serves no purpose.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Str=15 is 3dc

Martial strike= 2dc

+3dc Martial arts =3dc

 

That's 8d6 right?

 

Add +4d6hth with zero end (from the multipower) and that makes 12d6 right?

 

Advantages only don't add to martial damage right? You still get to use hth right? Zero end does not add to damage.

 

I am thinking that this specifically applied to things like AP, Pen, so on and so forth.

 

Unless I have missed something completely...

I already stated the +4d6 HA doesn't add to Zl'f's MA maneuvers. That's my intention, and if that's wrong as built (I don't believe it is) then I'll adjust the build accordingly.

 

She does 10 DC; 12 DC Pushed. No more, and not with Advantages.

[OddHat]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

So what you are saying is that this thread serves no purpose.

 

No, and that's not what he posted.

[Force]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

I already stated the +4d6 HA doesn't add to Zl'f's MA maneuvers. That's my intention, and if that's wrong as built (I don't believe it is) then I'll adjust the build accordingly.

 

She does 10 DC; 12 DC Pushed. No more, and not with Advantages.

 

Ok. I was just going by how she was built.

 

I don't see how she does 10dc with the hth attack tho.

 

It's 30 active points with 15 str. Should only be 9dc.

 

That will lower her into the hi 130's range, which is about what a 400pt character should be overall.

 

At 9dc's she is more of an annoyance to a typical 400pt brick or eb.

[Force]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

No' date=' and that's not what he posted.[/quote']

 

But what he stated was it's up to the campaign and gm.

 

So why even discuss the creation philosophy outlined in the original post?

 

There is no point.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

In Zl'f's game world' date=' if the GM decides that Cap is a better HtH fighter than Zl'f, he'll design Cap accordingly.[/quote']In this case, the player is ascertaining Zl'f probably couldn't beat Captain America one on one (She might win one out of several fights if Cap makes a mistake or she gets lucky. Cap doesn't make mistakes.).

 

It doesn't show in this current build, but Zl'f was largely originally conceived as a knockoff of Cap; not as a rival. She was a Russian counterpart to Cap. (The Russian government even wanted her for their super-soldier program.) She even wore a red and yellow costume to reflect the Soviet colors. She used to carry a baton with which she did the same things Cap does with his shield: throw it as a ranged attack, Missile Deflect, do extra damage. I just dropped the baton with the 5e rewrite.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Ok. I was just going by how she was built.

 

I don't see how she does 10dc with the hth attack tho.

 

It's 30 active points with 15 str. Should only be 9dc.

 

That will lower her into the hi 130's range, which is about what a 400pt character should be overall.

 

At 9dc's she is more of an annoyance to a typical 400pt brick or eb.

She does 7d6 + ½ Advantages with the HA, not 9. That's equivalent to 10½ DC's; not much more powerful than her 10d6 Sacrifice Strike maneuver and without the OCV bonus.

 

If I erred in her construction, I'll change it to reflect what I intended.

[OddHat]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

But what he stated was it's up to the campaign and gm.

 

So why even discuss the creation philosophy outlined in the original post?

 

There is no point.

 

Gary can speak for himelf, but the from the first post in the thread:

 

I was looking at the sample characters in the big black book, trying to work out some system for comparing the combat efficiency of various characters: my conclusion is that you just can’t do it, even when you are only comparing two characters, unless they are built in a very straightforward way. Nevermind; looking at the character builds got me thinking.

 

Go take a look at the sample super-characters, all built on standard superhero points of 350.. The sample ‘brick’ (Taurus) and ‘armour guy’ (Hardpoint) BOTH have 20 PD and 30 CON (the lowest PD of any of the four super-heroic characters, lower even that the martial artist!). I thought that was strange, BUT 20 is the recommended DEF for a character of that level, it’s just that, after years of character design, I never build characters like that.

 

SNIP

 

Anyway, this got me thinking: what is the biggest problem in the game, even for experienced players? How long combat takes. There’s all kinds of ways to speed up combat I’ve seen (and tried) over the years, but the one that never occurred to me was designing characters that wouldn’t last so long in a fight!

 

Is it possible we have all become a bit too good at character design, and forgotten that the real reason we are doing this is to play an enjoyable game, not finally attain The Perfect Build.

 

It’s a strange thought, but maybe we should pay rather more attention to the character build guidelines and the sample characters, and create characters that are designed to be superheroes rather than characters that are designed to be points efficient: we tend to get a bit paranoid and assume that if we do not make a character that is as points efficient as possible, someone else will, and we’ll get shown up.

 

It might feel odd, but I suspect it could be fun!

 

One conclusion some draw is that character combat efficiency questions are ultimately the domain of each inividual GM; that does not render the discussion pointless.

[Force]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

She does 7d6 + ½ Advantages with the HA, not 9. That's equivalent to 10½ DC's; not much more powerful than her 10d6 Sacrifice Strike maneuver and without the OCV bonus.

 

If I erred in her construction, I'll change it to reflect what I intended.

 

Ahhh, you are correct and I stand corrected. Don't make any changes to your character just because I was 'nitpicking' (which I wasn't, I was simply going by how I interpreted her build).

 

Like you stated, opinions don't matter.

 

As I stated, she is a very dangerous martial artist, as she should be in her campaign. She is slightly overpowered according the the ratings program I use to compare folks, but like you stated even that doesn't matter.

 

I don't even know why we are continuing this thread. Nothing to be gained by it as everything can be dismissed so easily.

[Force]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

One conclusion some draw is that character combat efficiency questions are ultimately the domain of each inividual GM; that does not render the discussion pointless.

 

Sure it does.

 

Everyone just uses that to dismiss everything that is brought up here.

 

It's been mentioned in this post many times...

 

Opinions don't matter.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

As I stated' date=' she is a [i']very[/i] dangerous martial artist, as she should be in her campaign. She is slightly overpowered according the the ratings program I use to compare folks, but like you stated even that doesn't matter.

I've never claimed otherwise. She is dangerous, and powerful within her own limits. As I stated, I'd put her right in the middle of MidGuard so far as combat power; and Mentor concurs with this assessment.

 

I don't even know why we are continuing this thread. Nothing to be gained by it as everything can be dismissed so easily.

Bring new arguments and points to the discussion and it will cease being pointless. The entire point of this thread was how difficult it is to evaluate characters in combat based simply on points. If nothing else, new players and GMs can learn this is more art than science.